Vatican Rewrites History On Galileo

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First Posted: 12-23-08 07:38 PM   |   Updated: 01-23-09 05:12 AM

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Galileo

Galileo Galilei is going from heretic to hero.

The Vatican is recasting the most famous victim of its Inquisition as a man of faith, just in time for the 400th anniversary of Galileo's telescope and the U.N.-designated International Year of Astronomy next year.

Pope Benedict XVI paid tribute to the Italian astronomer and physicist Sunday, saying he and other scientists had helped the faithful better understand and "contemplate with gratitude the Lord's works."

In May, several Vatican officials will participate in an international conference to re-examine the Galileo affair, and top Vatican officials are now saying Galileo should be named the "patron" of the dialogue between faith and reason.

It's quite a reversal of fortune for Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), who made the first complete astronomical telescope and used it to gather evidence that the Earth revolved around the sun. Church teaching at the time placed Earth at the center of the universe.

The church denounced Galileo's theory as dangerous to the faith, but Galileo defied its warnings. Tried as a heretic in 1633 and forced to recant, he was sentenced to life imprisonment, later changed to house arrest.

The Church has for years been striving to shed its reputation for being hostile to science, in part by producing top-notch research out of its own telescope.

In 1992, Pope John Paul II declared that the ruling against Galileo was an error resulting from "tragic mutual incomprehension."

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But that apparently wasn't enough. In January, Benedict canceled a speech at Rome's La Sapienza University after a group of professors, citing the Galileo episode and depicting Benedict as a religious figure opposed to science, argued that he shouldn't speak at a public university.

The Galileo anniversary appears to be giving the Vatican new impetus to put the matter to rest. In doing so, Vatican officials are stressing Galileo's faith as well as his science, to show the two are not mutually exclusive.

At a Vatican conference last month entitled "Science 400 Years after Galileo Galilei," the Vatican No. 2, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said Galileo was an astronomer, but one who "lovingly cultivated his faith and his profound religious conviction."

"Galileo Galilei was a man of faith who saw nature as a book authored by God," Bertone said.

The head of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Culture, which co-sponsored the conference, went further. Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi told Vatican Radio that Galileo "could become for some the ideal patron for a dialogue between science and faith."

He said Galileo's writings offered a "path" to explore how faith and reason were not incompatible.

The Rev. John Padberg, a church historian and the director of the Institute of Jesuit Sources at St. Louis University, said he suspected the Vatican's new emphasis on Galileo's faith came from the pope himself.

"Pope Benedict XVI is ardently convinced of the congruence of faith and reason, and he is concerned, especially in the present circumstances, of giving reason its due place in the whole scheme of things," he said.

While it is widely accepted that Galileo was a convinced Catholic, Padberg questioned whether he could ever be accepted as some kind of a poster child for the faith and reason debate. "That's going to be a long shot for an awful lot of people, on both sides, by the way," he said.

Benedict, a theologian, has made exploring the faith-reason relationship a key aspect of his papacy, and has directed his daily newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, in particular, to take up the charge.

On Monday, the newspaper published a piece on the possibility of alien life on other planets as well as one on the popes who were "friendly" to astronomy.

Benedict clearly is: In his Sunday blessing, he noted that the Vatican itself has its own meridian -- an obelisk in St. Peter's Square -- and that astronomy had long been used to signal prayer times for the faithful.

But the Vatican's embrace of Galileo only goes so far.

There were plans earlier this year to give Galileo a permanent place of honor in the Vatican to mark the anniversary of his telescope: a statue, to be located inside the Vatican gardens, donated by the Italian aerospace giant Finmeccanica SpA.

The plans were suspended after some Vatican officials voiced "problems" with the initiative, said Nicola Cabibbo, the president of the Pontifical Council for Science. He declined to elaborate.

Finmeccanica spokesman Roberto Alatri said the Galileo statue was just an idea that never got off the ground.

Italian news reports suggested the Vatican simply didn't want to draw so much permanent attention to the Galileo episode, which 400 years on, still rankles some.

"The dramatic clash between Galileo and some men of the Church left wounds that are still open today," the Vatican's chief astronomer, the Rev. Jose Funes, wrote recently in Osservatore. "The Church in some ways has recognized its errors.

"Maybe it could do better. One can always do better," he wrote.

Galileo Galilei is going from heretic to hero. The Vatican is recasting the most famous victim of its Inquisition as a man of faith, just in time for the 400th anniversary of Galileo's telescope and ...
Galileo Galilei is going from heretic to hero. The Vatican is recasting the most famous victim of its Inquisition as a man of faith, just in time for the 400th anniversary of Galileo's telescope and ...
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Speaking as a fairly anti-Catholic church (got nothing against Catholic believers - but the church hierarchy saw pedophiles molesting little kids, and came down on the side of giving the peodphiles more children to hurt, rather than lose a priest) atheist - I think some are being a bit unfair to the church here.

They've admitted for a VERY long time that Galileo is right. What they are doing now is elevating Galileo further, in recognition that he was right.

If apologies and admissions that they were wrong are met with hostility and mocking and non-factual statements about the churches position (it didn't take them 400 years to find Galileo right, and they are not anti-evolution - that's a different church) - IMO, that discourages further progress from the church. And given the huge number of people the church influences, I don't think that is irrelevant.

JMO - give them credit for what they are doing - it's a step in the right direction, however long delayed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:25 PM on 12/24/2008

Susan,

If you truly knew what you were talking about you would know two things:

First, that the church has been instituting reforms.
Second that the Catholic Laity (non clerics) are so angry at the pedophile business
that they do not contribute money any more.

For information on the church and Galileo, please consult "Brother Astronomer: Confessions of a Vatican Scientist by Brother Guy Consolmagno, S.J. PhD

Brother Guy was a PhD Astronomer at MIT before he entered the Society of Jesus better known as
The Jesuits.

Realistically speaking, The Jesuits have been teaching for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Some of the best Universites and other schools are Jesuit run.

Sorry but I am so very tired of Non-Catholics telling everyone about how bad the church is and how bad Catholics are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Would you like to hear a Catholic say it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 12/25/2008
- rich misty I'm a Fan of rich misty 1041 fans permalink
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"Sorry but I am so very tired of Non-Catholics telling everyone about how bad the church is and how bad Catholics are."

Catholics say denial is a river in Eqypt

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

By the way. They ain't instituting no reforms. Some of their kooks even believe John XXIII was the devil. Him and his Vatican II. The conservatives who have this church by the throat have been slowly, ever so slowly undoing the reforms of Vatican II and the reason they have to take it so slowly is the catch-22 they invented themselves -- Infallibility. John XXIII was infallible because he got elected pope. He surprised them. He was only supposed to be a ''transitional pope" but he called the Vatican Council to Rome and ordered the windows open for fresh air -- he ordered up reform.

Paul VI
John Paul II
Benedict XVI

All arch-conservatives who are sabotaging Vatican II and sticking little John back in the closet and his Holy Spirit with him.

You will NEVER hear an apology for Galileo in the Third World! Never! That is a sound bit for Europeans and Americans. These old men are dead to us and they know it. The new age announced by John XXIII will just have to be a new religion. Buddhism fits the bill. It is basic. Is renders the sacred into ones own breath. It is sitting. It is monastic meditation. No mythology. Just the steady discipline of becoming -- of sitting there breathing and being alive in the moment, in the moment where lives the Great I AM THAT I AM with no explanations or duplicitous apologies for being just That Which Is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:22 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Here is a group of authoritarian personalities who have been taking themselves seriously for far too long, despite that they dress in the oligarchic drag of the dark ages, carry smoking purses and wear ridiculously tall pointed hats, poke the tile floor ahead of them with shepherds crooks when there hasn't been a sheep spotted north of the Mexican border for fifteen years and despite that everyone would just as soon tell their secrets to Oprah as to a bunch of perverts sitting behind black linen curtains breathing hard.

Yes, my son, bzzzzzz, bzzzzzzz, bzzzzzzz, I forgive you for masturbating.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 AM on 12/25/2008
- Marlyn I'm a Fan of Marlyn 87 fans permalink
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"They've admitted for a VERY long time that Galileo is right." ???
Since 1992? That isn't so long ago.

"they are not anti-evolution" ???
YES THEY ARE!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 AM on 12/25/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

I'm reading here that the Church is finally accepting that the earth revolves around the sun. But please check your history. In fact, after Church astronomers recreated some of Galileo's experiments, the Church came out and said it had no problem with teaching heliocentrism so long as it was taught as a theory until such time it could be proven. The crux of the matter was Galileo's insistence that he proved the matter once and for all.

He very well may have. But it was not that the Church opposed the idea of a heliocentric universe. It was trying to be cautious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 12/24/2008
- jackbond I'm a Fan of jackbond 3 fans permalink

Nice historical re-write. Next... Napoleon didn't re-treat from Russia in horrible defeat, he just decided that he did not enjoy the weather.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:10 PM on 12/24/2008
- helmboy I'm a Fan of helmboy 3 fans permalink

that he wrote a book mocking the pope as an ignorant boob didn't help. he should have known the types of people he was dealing with better, our galileo. egos collided and the first atomic explosion occured.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 PM on 12/24/2008

Nice spin...Too bad that it just doesn't sell.

The church, which took over the role of deciding what is true and what is not - had decided that science and its representatives were a threat to their authority and so it decided to silence all dissenting voices - through force, through murder, through burnings etc.

And now, when the whole world laughs at the catholic church's attempts to spin this out - you come up with a nice defense.

I wonder how "Burning at the stake" will be spun by the church now? How a women's right to her own body will be spun by the church now? How will child-molesting preists be spun by the church now? How will evolution be spun by the church now?

Seriously the church as an institution has lost its relevence in the modern world - and only people who have been assidiously propagandized from childhood still continue to defend its idiotic viewpoints and accept its kool-aid.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 PM on 12/24/2008

I don't think that an institution that has existed for 2,000 years is not relevant.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:13 PM on 12/24/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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Bush: "never said Saddam was linked to 911. Or he had WMD."

Cheney was right, we were greeted as liberators.

Mission Accomplished!

Major combat operations in Iraq are concluded.

Hey Fugi, while Bush & Cheney are looking for revisionist historians,I don't think they'll be scouring the HUFF POST for them.

You'll need to interview elsewhere.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:21 PM on 12/24/2008
- Marlyn I'm a Fan of Marlyn 87 fans permalink
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And notice now how Bush and Cheney are trying to rewrite history, saying it was "bad intelligence". The truth is they cherry picked that intelligence because they wanted Iraqi oil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 12/25/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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"so long as it was taught as a theory until such time it could be proven"

Does the church take such a cautious stance on Creationism? Or the very existence of a monotheistic God? Both are just theories after all. Or I have been overlooking some verifiable scientific peer reviewed and recreated evidence of both?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:33 PM on 12/24/2008

"The Galileo anniversary appears to be giving the Vatican new impetus to put the matter to rest. In doing so, Vatican officials are stressing Galileo's faith as well as his science, to show the two are not mutually exclusive."

At the time, his FACTS (the moons of Jupiter for one) were in diametric opposition to the C.C.'s dogma. And, as we see, the dogma won out. Only after centuries of losing that argument does the C.C. decide that maybe it was all a big mistake.

Next up: all the witches and pagans burned at the stake will be forgiven because that was all a big mistake too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:51 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

Actually, no. See above. The Church was willing to accept the heliocentric theory. But it moved cautiously because honestly, it (and most of the world) didn't know what the physical truth was.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 PM on 12/24/2008

Yeah, rational discussion always begins with the offer of tor-ture.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:09 PM on 12/24/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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We were wrong about WMD's. Everyone thought there were WMDs.

Just because Bush repeated those words doesn't mean everyone thought there were WMDs.

I didn't beleive it then. So by your thinking, I'm the Galileo of my time, but because most of the world didn't beleive me, it's okay that that I was derided, ostracized, and called all sorts of things like a coward, unpatriotic, don't to leave my country, not to attend family events, because those who knew so much more than me, couldn't possibly wrong.

So when they are wrong, group think makes it okay.

Dude, where have you been for the last 6 years?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 12/24/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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nonsense they could have saw the evidence through a telescope for themselves but choose not to.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 12/24/2008
- Patricia84 I'm a Fan of Patricia84 21 fans permalink
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The Church moved cautiously by torturing someone into admitting he was wrong?!? Seems a little bit drastic too me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 12/24/2008
- paulfree17 I'm a Fan of paulfree17 11 fans permalink

So will we have to wait another 300 years for Darwin to get the same treatment?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Who?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 AM on 12/25/2008
- paulfree17 I'm a Fan of paulfree17 11 fans permalink

Charles Darwin .....theory of evolution......

Remember we all sprang from Adam and Eve about 5000 years ago....

If it took them 400 years to admit that the earth revolves around the sun maybe in another 300 years they will find a way to believe in evolution as well.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 AM on 12/25/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 291 fans permalink

But Catholics still believe the Pope is infallible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

Not to be uncharitable, but perhaps you should do some research on this before making blanket statements. I am a Catholic. A cradle Catholic who went to Catholic grammar school and went to a Catholic grad school. I am a member of the faithful.

I assure you, no Catholic believes the pope is "infalliable" nor do we believe the pope is impeccable. Papal infalliability applies only when the pope speak on matters of faith and morals when he speaks "ex cathedra," that is, from the Chair of St. Peter. Do you know how often this has happened in 2,000 years?

Twice.

And both infalliable pronouncements were confirmations on Catholic beliefs about the Virgin Mary.

Since the pope did not speak infalliably about Galileo at the time of his condemnation, there is no contradiction of an infalliable pronouncement.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 12/24/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 291 fans permalink

As a young Catholic, I was taught that the church and the pope were generally infallible.

The church lawyers seem to have been very careful in their definition of Papal infallibility.

So you are correct, technically. But

"The Vatican itself has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_papal_infallibility

So, I should say but the Catholic faith still states that the pope and church are infallible on most important matters

Note "The Roman Catholic Church holds that the dogmatic decrees of these ecumenical councils approved subsequently by the pope are infallible." so that fold all of those decrees into what the pope is infallible about.

and... "Examples of infallible teachings of the ordinary and universal Magisterium are harder to point to, since these are not contained in any one specific document, but are the common teachings found among the Bishops dispersed through the world yet united with the Pope."

All of which went far to make me an ex-catholic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 12/24/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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But why are all of his churches full of Graven images when the 4th suggestion says otherwise?

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

"I assure you, no Catholic believes the pope is "infalliable" nor do we believe the pope is impeccable."

How can you dare speak this blasphemy? Have you never seen Benny-16 in his red Pradas?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 AM on 12/25/2008
- Marlyn I'm a Fan of Marlyn 87 fans permalink
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"both infalliable pronouncements were confirmations on Catholic beliefs about the Virgin Mary." ???

And what were those infallible pronouncements? Affirming the virgin birth?

One of the oddest things I find in the Gospel is the great effort to show that Joseph, Jesus' earthly father, was descended from King David, so that prophecy would be fulfilled.

But if Jesus was born of a virgin, he wasn't related to Joseph, and hence, not related to David, and so prophecy is not fulfilled.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

No wait! I was raised Catholic. It's INFLATABLE not infallible. Isn't it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Let's put it this way: we like to let him think he is, anyway. It does wonders for your self-confidence to think you're infallible after practicing celibacy for 50 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 AM on 12/25/2008
- suntzu I'm a Fan of suntzu 16 fans permalink
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Question: if we discover life on another planet, will the Pope claim jurisdiction over the little green critters?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

God has jurisdiction over all life. The pope, as bishop, has teaching authority over Christians.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:02 PM on 12/24/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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In your opinion "God has jurisdiction over all life".

Out of curiosity, which God are you referring to?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:29 PM on 12/24/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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Which god?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Honk! Honk! You said the magic word! You said "Authority." Groucho's little duck on a rope just dropped down from above out of the stage lights with a fifty dollar bill in it's beak just for you. Aren't you thrilled?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 12/25/2008

you really get the sense the church believes that blind acceptance of fairy tales takes precedence over reason.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 PM on 12/24/2008
- turfkiller I'm a Fan of turfkiller 6 fans permalink

Actually the head of the American Catholic Lawyers association believes that the U.S. Constitution is actually false Protestant dogma imposed on the Catholic Church. Because the Constitution subordinates Catholic spiritual authority to temporal Protestant authority the Constitution is a false religion.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

What utter rubbish. I went to Columbus School of Law at the Catholic University of America in DC (now rated in the top 100 law schools! Whoo-hoo!). Guess what we always took as the supreme civil word in law? The US Constitution.

Please, stop your know-nothing nonsense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 12/24/2008

What about your blind acceptance that God doesn't exist?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:19 PM on 12/24/2008
- Patricia84 I'm a Fan of Patricia84 21 fans permalink
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Huh...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

What you do is you take g-d by the hair in your left hand like a baby hanging in your grip, and with your sword in your right hand you strike Him and slice right through the midsection at the point of the navel and then you scream, "Does A God Have Buddha Nature?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 AM on 12/25/2008
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That's not blind acceptance. That's rationality, basing one's view of reality on the evidence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Now wait just a minute here! You seem to think -- with George W. Bush, John Hagee, Rick Warren and James Dobson still running around -- that you're living in the Age of the Enlightenment or something.

Sir, your argument is a "modernist" argument. In fact (I'll have to check with my friends to be sure but), it may even be a "Post Modern" argument. Don't you realize that we are now in the Post-Post-Modern Era and that it was trumpeted by the Evangelicals of St. Sarah and her secret Catholic supporters? You are way out of line here! As soon as the economy completely collapses and we enter the Post-Apocalyptic World Depression, you'll be begging for magazine article on Genesis to read. Ah Ha! But there won't be any paper!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 AM on 12/25/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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What would have happened if Galileo invented an instrument that could detect child molesting priests?

Good or bad things

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

Yup, that's right. Let's take 2,000 years of work and focus on the bad. Why not?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 12/24/2008

True...

2000 years of "believe - don't think."
2000 years of going all around the world and converting savages and bringing Jesus and mary into their lives.
2000 years of picturing them as white man and women when both were brown palestinians.
2000 years of declaring who is a witch or who needs to be burned at the stake.
2000 years of pumping children;s head with fairy tale theories of Heaven and Hell - and devil and angel and whatnot.

I guess you really have no idea about all the evil perptrated on the world in the name of religion. I live in a place where people have been killing each other because one group does not believe the fairy tales of the other group - and they have been killing each other for 2000+ years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:56 PM on 12/24/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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It's all just so easy and so much better to ignore the bad, right?

You claim you went to Law School and yet, you appear to grasp the concept of mens rea or the totality of an act and the impact of prior acts in gauging moral culpability.

If a 30 year old man with the IQ of below 65 commits the act of murder without understanding that he has taken a life, is he as guilty in the eye of the court as a man with an IQ of 65 who understands his action has taken the life of another?

And in the eye of your God, does it matter at all?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:29 PM on 12/24/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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Yup lets not mention what happened to the aboriginal peoples of the Americas and Australia and the Spanish Inquisition.

But I will mention G Bruno again

This idea about the universe did not sit well with the Catholic Church. They lured Giordano Bruno to Rome with the promise of a job, where he was immediately turned over to the Inquisition and charged with heresy.
Giordano Bruno spent the next eight years in chains in the Castel Sant’Angelo, where he was routinely tortured and interrogated until his trial. Despite this, he remained unrepentant, stating to his Catholic Church judge, Jesuit Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, "I neither ought to recant, nor will I." Even a death sentence handed down by the Catholic Church did not change his attitude as he defiantly told his accusers, "In pronouncing my sentence, your fear is greater than mine in hearing it."
Immediately after the death sentence was handed down, Giordano Bruno’s jaw was clamped shut with an iron gag, his tongue was pierced with an iron spike and another iron spike was driven into his palate. On February 19, 1600, he was driven through the streets of Rome, stripped of his clothes and burned at the stake.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 12/24/2008
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/23/new-sexabuse-scandal-divi_n_153195.html

The Church pedophiles have been going on since the beginning too... But of course, nothing changes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:19 AM on 12/25/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Oh we already have those. It's a little bell that is attached via a string to your foreskin. When the skin stretches, the bell rings. Then your BUSTED! It's a mortal sin to have a hardon--don't you know that?

Geeze, where do these people come from?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:41 AM on 12/25/2008
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How dare they. The Vatican needs to shut up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 12/24/2008
- turfkiller I'm a Fan of turfkiller 6 fans permalink

The Vatican has known for ages and their recent falling numbers prove that just a belief in God doesn't spread religion. Religion will not spread without a belief in the devil and their devils have grown stale. Their new devils are gays, abortion and the U.S. Constitution which the Catholics are now claiming to be a false dogma.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:28 PM on 12/24/2008
- Vr6 I'm a Fan of Vr6 12 fans permalink
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In all fairness this is really spin! The Catholic church being born out of the shattering shards of the Roman Empire ( one we seem to hold high!), was an attempt then of unification, one nation under dog! So this declaration now, seeks to illustrate a current and progressive nature - just to maintain and solidify it's 'tithing base', it has to survive as well - it robs now more benignly! An institution based on lies, that forced it's belief's onto others - has to be suspect, let us not forget the untold 'innocents' that have died through the ages, so unnecessarily, at the hands of the agents of this erroneous construct. It's been some 1700 years of outrageous behaviour, those traveling bishops... polluting the avenues of Europe and the developed west with their vile spawn and now they in a simply covetous publicity move, expect to absolve themselves in some modern and thoughtful way, that they become 'the Good Guys" again, albeit only somewhat - you can't undo the past, redact it maybe. The church today is a different animal, it has a publicity sect - but it is the same beast! Roman Catholicism - representing 2008+ years of exploiting the masses - ignorance rather than indifference perpetuates this anomaly !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 PM on 12/24/2008

Prove it...you can't..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:20 PM on 12/24/2008
- Vr6 I'm a Fan of Vr6 12 fans permalink
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Nor can you. It's still a bunch of crap!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:15 PM on 12/24/2008
- BaileyWo I'm a Fan of BaileyWo 11 fans permalink

Look at it this way: You have a beautiful virgin being carried aloft by a hoard of servants, struggling, crawling through the mud and over rough stone, stepping on some servants and trampling others. Here you stand watching this parade of the suffering, stumbling past you, wounded and bleeding, cursing under their breath at each other yet fighting to be selected out and given the honor -- nay, that sanctifying Grace that led you perchance to be washed by a passing shower so as to be recognized by her from above and called to her side so that you can but peel a grape and feed it to her. Sumptuous lips. Do you not see? Can you not perceive the beauty of the dream.

I can't either. Want to go have a beer somewhere?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 AM on 12/25/2008

Just like any major corporation, the vatican is re-branding itself. Like the oil companies have all become "energy" companies and are preaching about saving energy.

The persecution and inprisonment of Galileo becomes a "tragic mutual incomprehension."

He tragically believed his eyes instead of the pope and we tragically threathened him until he said he didn't.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 PM on 12/24/2008
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The only thing we know FOR SURE is that we don’t know if there is a God.

Religion is simply faith.
Atheism is simply faith.

We do NOT know for sure what is beyond the Universe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 12/24/2008

Right, both ends of the spectrum are about faith. So what is an agnostic insomniac dyslexic to do?

Lay awake at night wondering, if there really is a dog.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:49 PM on 12/24/2008
- adampap I'm a Fan of adampap 7 fans permalink
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We don't know for sure there is no tooth fairy, Santa Claus, or unicorns. Would you say you need to have faith that there are no unicorns? I doubt it. Atheism is lack of belief, not certainty of god's nonexistence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:51 PM on 12/24/2008
- turfkiller I'm a Fan of turfkiller 6 fans permalink

Actually we believe in the purple spaghetti monster whose tentacles touch every molecule in the universe. Everybody knows there's no Santa unless they have ruined a big bank.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 PM on 12/24/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 263 fans permalink
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Your ignoring the one true religion, the northern deformed 3rd day visogoths of christ the geologist.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 PM on 12/24/2008
- Clavis I'm a Fan of Clavis 39 fans permalink

You'll find most atheists are philosophically agnostic -- that is, they can't know with 100% certainty that Jehovah and Ra and Quetzlcoatl and Zeus don't exist -- but they place no confidence in the notion that Jehovah (for example) exists.

Atheists don't believe that there is a God to give them perfect knowledge, so no matter how convinced they may be that there aren't any gods, they don't "have faith" in that idea. It's just a strongly-held conviction.

Put it this way: an atheist will never say to you "I know there is no God, and there's nothing you can say to me or show me that will change my mind!" whereas that is essentially the heart of religious faith.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:03 PM on 12/24/2008
- JShankel I'm a Fan of JShankel 114 fans permalink
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Dismissing a proposition for which there is no supporting evidence whatsoever is not "faith." It's the opposite of faith.

I disbelieve in leprechauns. I don't believe that leprechauns exist. Even though I can't prove it and can't be 100% certain, I'd hardly say I'm agnostic on the subject.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 12/24/2008

Exactly, if atheism were a matter of "faith" then every hallucination, imagination, and concoction would require the atheist to have "faith" that these things didn't exist. As an atheist, I live life on it's own terms, period. The self statement I live by regarding religion is "Religion is for those who cannot tolerate the tension of not knowing."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 12/24/2008
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What substantial proof is there regarding leprechauns?

We know there is a Universe. We have an understanding of time.

What created the Universe? You may have a theory but no one knows for sure, whether it was the big bang of created by a “God”. What came before time? And before that? Etc.

There are at least some ideas that make it plausible that there might be a higher power, God.

If only for the reason that human beings, with their limited speck of an existence in the Universe have come to understand their place in it. If there is a creator, it certainly is more intelligent, sophisticated then its creation and might exist beyond our comprehension. Or maybe there is no God.

My point is, there is no way of saying there definitely is or is not a God.

What even plausible proof is there to suggest leprechauns or Santa Claus exist?? None.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 PM on 12/25/2008
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That which can’t be questioned and scrutinized (Religion) should not be respected.

If you believe in something’s veracity, you should welcome questions about your beliefs.

Because you know you’re ideas will be shown to be true upon inspection.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 PM on 12/24/2008
- turfkiller I'm a Fan of turfkiller 6 fans permalink

Specifically it isn't their ideas that might be wrong that makes them deaf but their faith is a process of identification where the individual ceases to be himself and he becomes part of something eternal.

Their joys, sorrows, pride, fortunes and confidence spring from their identification with their group faith instead of their own abilities and capacities. This is not so much as primitive but a lack of development and judgment growth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 12/24/2008

Yeah, right buddy...do tell us what you are smoking?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 12/24/2008
- Marlyn I'm a Fan of Marlyn 87 fans permalink
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Agreed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 12/25/2008

As someone who just knows that the Flintstones... er, I mean Creationism, or "Intelligent Design" or whatever propaganda name is current is the gospel truth (to hell with science, and what good is that pesky old Scientific Method?), and as someone who knows that Planet Earth, let alone just the Grand Canyon, is only a few thousand years old... Galileo was just a silly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:34 PM on 12/24/2008

Bu, buh, but.... the Pope Is Infallible ! Confused... (cue Star Trek "Nomad" episode).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 PM on 12/24/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji 11 fans permalink

Again. See papal infalliability. Heck, even Wikipedia would explain the concept to you if you would BUT OPEN YOUR MIND.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:56 PM on 12/24/2008
- Tom Payned I'm a Fan of Tom Payned 94 fans permalink
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Wise words Fuji,

Say them to yourself and maybe you'll see that yours is not the only point of view that needs to be followed.

Say it again Fuji, in your own words:

OPEN YOUR MIND.

The concepts, the alphas, omegas are in fact limitless, not only the ones you ascribe to.

All who came before the alleged Jesus, were just wrong, right? All who came after Jesus but don't follow, well, they are damned for all eternity. And, if that as to negative a back lash, like babies in purgatory because they died before being baptized, the Popes will just rewrite that centuries later, and for those parents who died before the Popes said "oops, my bad" not to worry, all is forgiven for the hell on Earth those Popes created, right?

Stop your sanctimonious revisionism please.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 12/24/2008
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