Black Support For Prop. 8 Called Exaggeration

San Fransico Chronicle:

Reports of overwhelming African American support for Proposition 8's ban on same-sex marriage were exaggerated in exit polls, a new look at the November election results has found.

"Party identification, age, religiosity and political view had much bigger effects than race, gender or having gay and lesbian family and friends," said Patrick Egan of New York University, who wrote the report with Kenneth Sherrill of Hunter College of New York for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

Read the whole story: San Fransico Chronicle

Comments

[StillIRise]

As a black woman, married for 34 years, I unconditionally support the LGBT community in their cause for the same rights that I enjoy. I'm also very politically aware of the issues that are at the forefront of our national discourse. However, before the passage of Prop 8, I was not at all familiar with the scope of the LGBT struggle in respect to gay marriage. I became familiar with it on this blogsite and in talking with my gay/lesbian friends. Yet, these venues have been the sole source of my education, my understanding, and therein my compassion and ultimately my passion for the right of marriage to be extended to the LGBT community. Imagine the many other Americans who don't have gay/lesbian friends to talk to, or who don't venture onto blogsites like this ...

Whatever organization the LGBT has is not serving their cause justly. They need a grassroots organization that reaches out beyond the community itself to engage all Americans, particularly those who disagree, in a discussion and education that will encourage more amenability to their cause. It may mean changing one heart at a time, but if it's a worthy cause, then it's worth the time and effort to bring about a meaningful result. Demands, threats and expressing hostility to those who disagree with gay marriage, is not only not a plan, but it's self-defeating, and it will never create the reality that the LGBT community deserves.

[whatevahs]

But, but, I thought polls were always dead on right! I mean, isn't that what we're told whenever they say a Democrat politician is beating a Republican politician in an election?

[Broughton]

Who advocated for Prop 8 to be put on Ballot in the first place? Mormons(WHITE)

Stop the race baiting please

[iwantpie]

Agreed.

[tr24]

Thank you!

[politicalgenius]

Amen!!

[dct1999]

Exactly

[AnotherTry]

Our larger problem as a community is that as long as the President stands firmly against federally recognized marriages between two people of the same gender, not many others will be compelled to change theirs stance either.

What a great opportunity for a leader. Such a sad waste of political good will.

[pthesmith]

In your comments, you project on to Obama this idea of wasted political good will. Obama and Biden were never in support of gay marriage, only civil union. You are attempting to usurp the historic nature of his election. There is no good will lost just because he will not allow his election to be hijacked. The good will is lost when you insist on dividing people instead of engaging in dialogue that could bring about the change you seek.

[Jezreel]

Excellent comment, PT.

[tr24]

Marriage=man+woman
Civil Union=define as necessary (woman+woman, man+man, farm animal +man, etc.)

[StillIRise]

First of all, PE Obama does not stand firmly against federally recognized same-sex marriage. He has expressed his personal predilection for civil unions, but he has neither stated nor implied, or otherwise indicated, that he would impose his personal convictions on the rights of the individual states to make their own determinations on this issue.

Secondly, non-Christians who support PE Obama did not become Christians simply because that's what PE Obama is. Americans who support Obama but oppose civil unions have not changed their minds because PE Obama supports civil unions. And those who oppose gay marriage will not support it simply because Obama tells them to! PE Obama cannot dictate "good will" to the American people. That's up to us!

As PE Obama has reiterated, government works from the bottom up, not from the top down. It's not up to any American president to be the spokesperson to promote legislation as sensitive to the American public as gay marriage. To the contrary, it's up to the LGBT community itself to be its own voice on this issue, to create a forum that will engage the American people in this dialogue and to work from this level up to the higher levels of our government, both locally and federally. The onus of this effort is not on Obama, the black community or anyone else except the LGBT community themselves. If they're not willing to do the hard work to get it done, then it won't get done!
.

[friskee1]

ha ha told you so.. and by the way, where is the gay community in the shooting death of oscar grant? i'll wait...

[jdmba]

OOOOOH! SNAP!

Co - m effing- SIGN

[dct1999]

Say word.

[diogenes1967]

Ok, I had to look that oscar grant reference up. Harvey Milk would have said something abt. this, probably.

[sweetwhine]

They need a Harvey type. They've lost their way.

[AnotherTry]

That's my mother's tactic. Change the subject.

[friskee1]

if this is about equality for all and everyone getting their fair share, then you be outraged about this. just by your response, you could care less(unless he was gay)

[diogenes1967]

Yeah but...

I live in Illinois and there are gay activists here who will speak up and protest when things happen on the South Side (where the blk. community is located) particularly if it's a gay related thing, but not in all situations. Of course, Chicago is a little different because gay folks live everywhere and among just about everybody. I have often thought that....na­h

[Tanyars5]

if he is not gay and white .....gays don't want to know about it......ga­y marriage is their only issue

[oafishcad]

There are gays who aren't white. Kind of racist to say what you did.

[jdmba]

The Prop 8 Issue shifted my favorite news anchor from Rachel Maddow to Stephen Colbert. Don't get me wrong, I always liked Stephen, but he really shone through this election. He hosted Nate Silver during the heat of the debate and he pointed out the Divide and Conquer strategy employed by the MSM.

At this point, he seems to represent Black punditry better than any Black person I can think of... Well, he personally doesn't represent, but he offers an amazing forum of liberal thought. He's hosted Dr. Cornell West, Cory Booker, Michael Dyson, Wynton Marsalis, among many others. He is the only one in the MSM who features normal Black people and doesn't ask them to ignore or apologize for their race.

And I'm predicting that the next rivalry will be between the disabled and the obese.

[pthesmith]

...refresh­ingly unlike his mentor John Stewart. I was pretty disappointed with Stewart about his comments, "The oppressed have become the oppressor," and the "Black" correspondent (idiot) he has on his show.

[Tanyars5]

jdma whats up? I still like RM......of course for me to get possted I have to say that.....C­olbert something about him I don't like....ca­n't put my finger on it...anywa­y you are right.....­I luv Cornell West.....I have not seen or heard him on CNN, MSNBC or Fox.......­.why don't they ask him on for his opinion...­....good suggestion for a guest.....­...

[jdmba]

Yeah, I still like RM too. But I like Stephen much better.

He had to grow on me, though. At first, I found it annoying how he would interrupt his guests and act like a jacka$$. Sometimes he gets too into himself and doesn't do political jokes (he's on this anime kick right now). When that happens, feel free to turn the channel.

But when he's on point, he is ON. POINT.

He shed a tear when the election results came in. It's the first time I saw him break characters­....


Ultimately, he is the opposite of W. Bush-- Colbert cares about Black people... Genuinely. Not just because he wants their political support.

[oafishcad]

It seems any time this subject comes up all it does is divide gays and blacks. I've never heard a single gay person blame the black community for the passage of prop 8. Never. Yet the black community will not take responsibility for the fact that as a group, they voted to take away another group's civil rights. And yes marriage is a civil right. Own it. Other groups were far more important in prop 8's passage, but that doesn't give the AA community a free pass on bias.

[DebofMD]

You are one of the people, that as an African American woman, I wouldn't even bother trying to talk to on this issue. You have learned absolutely nothing from the dialouge that has taken place in this thread or any others on this issue. You are stuck on blaming African Americans for this, and therefore, you will get NOWHERE in getting what you want. Now own THAT.

[jdmba]

Cosign! She is talking out both sides of her mouth: Gays don't blame Black people, but it really is Black people's fault.

I'm not even going to respond to this Tro//

[AnotherTry]

There is so much blame to go around. Couldn't you be charitable and accept just a smigde of it? A tiny bit?

[oafishcad]

I never blamed the black community for prop 8 passage. I do blame them for their own prejudice that they continue to deny.

[dct1999]

"I've never heard a single gay person blame the black community.­.."

So because you never heard it, it didn't happen? You need to take Reality 101, Logic 101 and Denial 101 in order to understand the ridiculousness of your statement.

[oafishcad]

OK, your point is partly valid. Just because I (still) have never heard a gay person blame the black community exclusively for the passage of prop 8 does not mean there isn't some numbnuck out there who has. It is not the consensus of the gay community. Gays know that there are lots of groups more than happy to have someone they can look down upon and vote away their civil rights. Including Hispanics, blacks and Republicans.

[Tanyars5]

word and a yep yep

[friskee1]

latinos voted against it as well as whites, yet it's blame the blacks. prop 8 was ran poorly and yet you can't own up to it. and btw, no one gives a f*ck about gay marriage

[oafishcad]

No one should give a f about gay marriage. Maybe if you read the WHOLE post you'd see. That's the point. It's none of your business. yes as a group latinos voted against it as did republicans and many other prejudiced groups. My point is that each of these groups, including the AA community are running away from their own prejudice and denying it. It is not the fault of a "poorly run" campaign that bias won. It's the fault of the bias.

[iwantpie]

"no one gives a f*ck about gay marriage"

Agreed and thank you.

[Tanyars5]

word and yep yep yep yep yep!!!!!!!!!

[DaisyDooks]

Friskee1, it's a mind game. Stick up your middle finger and keep moving. This situation was contrived to stir up animosity between b-l-a-c-k-s and g-a-y-s. The deception worked. The objective was to put a damper on the collective euphoria - especially among b-l-a-c-k-s - over Obama's election. The timing was not coincidental.

[diogenes1967]

Well, I'm gay and black, so....

I do feel that black communities need to take some responsibility, I am not giving them a free pass. But (and listen to me!) that criticism can't come from all white voices. It can't come from those who are living the good life (I assume) in WeHo. A WeHo queen going to Watts or Compton to talk abt. his oppression cause he can't get married? You can't even sell me on that one.

[oafishcad]

Maybe black gays could have spoken up. It isn't a white issue. It's an equality issue.

[sherbug]

Blacks are not responsible for the misery of the LGBT community. You say you have never heard anyone say they blame the black community? Didn't you just blame the black community? "They voted to take away another group's civil rights", sounds like the blame game to me.

I don;t know where you have been but the posts on the previous Pastor Warren threads were very hateful toward blacks and especially the black church. It was faith in God that brought blacks through 400 years of persecution and black churches were where the civil rights movements were organized. To diss the black church is like dissing the root of the black community. Whether you are a believer or not, you must respect the beliefs of others.

All I have heard is its Obama's fault or its the black's fault of its Pastor Warren's fault. Since No on Prop 8 had twice the money as Yes on Prop 8 did, it looks like the fault could lie with your campaign. That you might want to own.

[Dave01]

"Since No on Prop 8 had twice the money as Yes on Prop 8 did"

That is an ABSOLUTE LIE! You might want to check your math again.

[oafishcad]

It's the religiously intolerant in all communities that passed prop 8. The anti gay voices do not own Christianity. All black churches did not encourage voting bigotry into law. No one is dissing black churches. Just black churches who support bigotry and want their particular dogma to be law. Many Christian churches support gay marriage. I'm only "blaming" black voters who voted for oppression. That doesn't excuse other bigots of other groups, nor does it blame those who voted for civil rights equality.

[diogenes1967]

I mean, at least we are dialoguing here or at we are trying to. Even if we can't hear one another much of the time. It's a start.

[pthesmith]

I hope this article gets as much attention as the ones that divisively accused African Americans of turning their backs on the LBGT community.

[dct1999]

Don't bet the house on it.

[DebofMD]

I doubt it. They had to much fun dogging us over the issue.

[oafishcad]

Bottom line. No one has the right to vote on gay marriage. People had the power to do so. Never the right.

[Eyewideopen]

It won't and who cares....

Gays better hope this issue is struck down in the courts.

[Hatsone]

I know a white transgender male who likes to compare his/her life experience of being discriminated against with the experience of blacks. This comparison is mostly false. The white transgender male can take his/her dress off, at any time, and blend in with the rest of white male America, whereas blacks can not do this. I say mostly false because the pain that one feels who has been discriminated against can be compared to the pain of others who have been oppressed for whatever reason. In my opinion, besides the biblical element, GLBT folks are generally discriminated against because of the way some of them flamboyantly express their sexuality in public. Any type of extreme public behavior will beget a strong response, sometimes positive, but often negative. Instead of unfairly and disproportionately blaming Blacks for the passing of Prop 8, the GLBT community should deeply reexamine itself and then seek partnerships with other disenfranchised groups, instead of trying to guilt them into submission.

[AnotherTry]

Why don't they feel guilty already? Why do they think people should be discriminated against? The Bible? Is that fair?

[tr24]

Okay if I were to some way suspend MY personal belief, and accept that gays and lesbians were born this way, how possibly can anyone rationalize transsexua­ls/transge­ndered individual­s...certai­nly they weren't born this way!

[diogenes1967]

But in that case a transgende­red/transs­exual made the choice to be the way they were, it's not your choice to make. You can discriminate against them all you want, just not in certain ways as defined by the law. They mind their business, you mind yours, period. No problem.

[AnotherTry]

There SO much evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't even know where to begin!
Just do a little bit of research on the subject. You might be wonderfully surprised how much scientific evidence there is out there.

[lynnn]

Uhm yes many were.

[lynnn]

Well I had a roommate in college who was a transgendered person (taking hormones). He was discriminated against by the university (bc they wouldn't let him have a roommate). He was discriminated against by many lesbians, by some teachers, and well by a lot of ppl.

I think some ppl have issues w/privilege (specifically white male privileged) they see Gay white males as having privileges that they don't have. I don't think a lot of ppl get how horrible being in the closet is. It can destroy some one's soul. I've had a few friends who have tried to commit suicide. You're telling ppl to lie to the world (and themselves). So yea it might be different bc ppl can't just not be black, but it really hurts ppl to "act" straight, or "just not wear a dress". Human sexuality is something that is still being studied, but their are lots of forms of hermaphroditism.

I don't think won can really rank oppression. Many GLBT ppl that their contribution to history and society is not recognized, just like many AA's feel. So that is one way it is similar. But ranking oppression and lack of privilege is just not something someone can do.

I mean, that means that an African Immigrant transgendered lesbian would be like the most oppressed person in the country

[MadVillianous]

I think you're onto the right approach to starting a dialogue on the issue. Drawing the comparisons not between the manner of oppression, but instead between the toll - physical, emotional and otherwise - that said oppression causes in the victims seems to me to be a better way to go about it.

[TallyLass]

I agree with you 100%. I voted against the measure, but then when I heard that some of the gays were using the N word in their intial protests. I said screw it. They should go to rehab like Isiah Washington, in order to be forgiven. No one can guilt me into anything. I think they dropped the ball and should have been protesting BEFORE the vote. They should have asked Blacks about protest tactics, but they thought tv commercials would do it. That's the lazy way out.

[AnotherTry]

Those reports were exaggerated.

And people who care about this issue should feel guilty. We all failed. We all could have done more, from me and my family all the way up to Barack Obama. We all failed.

[jdmba]

Exactly.

I live here in SF. I know gays who didn't vote at all.

The measure passed because the majority voted for it. The minority cannot pass measures on their own. Black people are a minority. It's just that simple.

The reaction of the gay community to the measure belonged in the gutter. Seriously. Using the N word does not create alliances, and it screams White Privilege louder than a Harvard legacy admission. Black people still fight for our Civil Rights everyday, and if gay people want to make progress, then they should start taking notes on the right way to get it done.

I'm a Black person who voted against Prop 8. If I am ever in the position to vote on a Gay Equality Rights act again, I think I'll just stay home because my vote is clearly unappreciated and underreported.

[diogenes1967]

they didn't need to ask blacks. They could have asked some of the ACTUP guys (those queens disrupted the NYSE back in the day!) that are still around and some of those with experience in grassroots movement for gay and lesbian policies. No on 8 didn't even utilize all of the resources in the gay community. And grassroots oriented gay and lesbian activists are very,very angry at the people who ran the No On 8 campaign, those activists are not scapegoating blacks.

[iwantpie]

co-signing.

[diogenes1967]

Here is part 2 of an article by a BET journalist:

Healthcare

Despite thousands of dollars spent creating legal documents, same-sex couples can still be denied hospital visitation and decision making rights for their partners in many areas of the nation, a right that is instantly conferred by marriage.

1,000+ Missing Civil Rights

When two gay/lesbian adult individuals come together in a long-term loving relationship, despite the existence of "civil unions," they are still missing over 1,000 federal benefits of protections for one another that are only conferred with the word marriage.

[diogenes1967]

Why Blacks Should Support Gay Marriage
By Herndon Davis
Children

An estimated 14 million children are being raised by same-sex parents who require the legal infrastructure marriage in order to protect their children because there are numerous restrictions placed on the co-parental rights of unmarried same-sex couples.

Elderly

Approximately 10% of all same-sex couples are over the age of 65 but they are treated differently as retirement plan benefits are heavily taxed, surviving partners must pay estate tax on inherited homes, even if jointly owned and social security payments stops when a partner dies.

[Lemmy]

The people of California said no to gay marriage. End of story.

[iwantpie]

Agreed

[Dave01]

You do realize that gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins, right? I guess that explains the whole "iwantpie" moniker.

[AnotherTry]

Obviously, you relaize the story is not over, otherwise there would be no story for you to comment on.

[Lemmy]

It's over . . or are they voting on it again . . . let me check . . . nope . . no gay marriage in California. End of story.

[oafishcad]

The voters of other states said no inter racial marriage. End of story? no. The Supreme Court said marriage is a civil right. Civil rights are guaranteed to all citizens. There's the end of this story.

[tr24]

When two gay men or women can produce life like an interracial couple then you can make their comparison. The two are not, nor ever will be equivalent. And honestly, your comparison is offensive on many levels.

[iwantpie]

Marriage is btw one man and one woman regardless of inter racial couple or not.

[Jezreel]

"The Supreme Court said marriage is a civil right. Civil rights are guaranteed to all citizens. There's the end of this story."

Correct, marriage is a civil right, i.e., a right that's already available to every other American. In the US, a legal marriage is a union between one man and one woman.

The interracial issue is rooted in racial bigotry. But it is does not change the definition of marriage, i.e., a union between a man and a woman.

Because the issue involved a marriage between a man and a woman, which is a right that every other American already had, the SC could only reach one decision.

Gay marriage, on the other hand is not a civil rights issue, i.e., a struggle to exercise the same rights of every other American. That right - the right of a man and a woman to marry already exist.

The gay marriage movement is a struggle to redefine marriage for everyone. If they are successful, marriage will no longer be a union between a man and a woman. That change will affect the way things are done in every other institution in the country resulting in the will of the supramajority being subverted to the will of 2-7 percent of the population.

In other words, the gay marriage movement is an effort to commandeer a long standing ritual of American society and use it to further their own agenda.

[wijg]

The churches in Utah said no to gay marriage and had their little minions in CA follow. This story is long from over... Part II is in the works.

[tr24]

This is only a story on Huffpo. Nowhere else i.e. see CNN, Times, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, WallStreet Journal, etc.

[AnotherTry]

It seems we in the gay community will have to be beaten down in the streets by cops AGAIN, hosed down with fire hoses AGAIN, attacked by dogs AGAIN and further ridiculed by the likes of Fred phelps, Pat Robertson and Rick Warren for a few more decades until the rest of 'America' gets it.

Problem is, the main stream media stopped showing on TV the reality of protest marches sometime in the early 80s. And exactly the people we need to reach are usually the less informed, more poor and rural citizens who live without access to the internet.

We have an uphill battle for sure. And it would seem some posters here welcome that gleefully. You know who you are.

[StillIRise]

I for one do welcome that battle and will join in with you, not because I want you to suffer, but because I know that it's the only way you can get the legislation you want and that I support for you. It won't be easy, and it will be uphill, because transforming the consciousness of our nation is never easy. But you do what you have to do, and if it's worth it, then so is the battle.

You need an organized PR effort as well.

[diogenes1967]

And maybe we need to do a 50 state strategy.

I will confess that I was somewhat indifferent to the Proposition 8 battle because I don't live in California. I didn't even hear about the ballot initiatives in Florida and Arizona. I heard things here and there, but I could not cast a vote. I read things here and there in the gay media here but...now I know, I guess.

[Mattylock]

The white gay community is as deaf as the Republican party. You've never been beaten down in the street by cops. You've never been hosed down with fire hoses. You've never been attacked by dogs. Your constant false equivalencies to the black civil rights movement are offensive. It's easy for you to make light of things you've never experienced.

[Dave01]

Ever heard of Stonewall?

[AnotherTry]

We already have been. Repeatedly! Please, stop making false statements like that. You are bearing false witness.


This is EXACTLY our problem. Our history is denied. Our lives are made invisible. Just listen to what people who speak like they know MLK personally are saying! We have our work cut out for us.

[diogenes1967]

Yes, we have experienced some of those things, do the research, if you are so inclined. Granted, there are some false equivalencies, this is one of the failures of the gay movement, in fact. But check out what happened after the murder of Harvey Milk in SF and the conviction on a bogus manslughter charge by an all-straight jury .After that bogus verdict, gay folks acted in the same way that black folks acted after Rodney King and for the same reason. So the comparisions are there.

[oafishcad]

White gay community? I think gays of every color are denied rights. The gay community may be convenient to deny rights to if you define it as white. And yes, gays have been beaten in the streets and all the other things that people seem to deny conveniently so they can remain prejudiced. Gays have a history equally full of death and destruction as other minorities. Just not taught in schools. The rich white guy on tv sitcoms is not what the gay community is. Your denying gays is just as offensive as you say they are. More so.

[esquire07]

Mattylock, did you go to a special school to become as ignorant as you are ?

[Dave01]

tr24, you want facts? Here are some facts. In 2000, my partner of 9 years was involved in a head-on collision. He was hit by a drunk driver. We owned a home together, we had life insurance (with each other as the beneficiaries), we had our living wills, our durable and medical power's of attorney, etc. We went through all the additional hoops that we are required to have "equal" protection under the law. I had him on my medical insurance through my employer, and any outstanding medical bills that my insurance wouldn't cover, he and I would become responsible for paying. Well he passed away 3 weeks after. His parents refused to come to be with him while he was in the hospital. Outstanding medical bills = $25,000.

His mother in the end, filed suit in Pennsylvania federal court (we lived in Arizona) challenging his will, life insurance policy, and power of attorney. She WON the lawsuit, why? Because we weren't "married". The court ordered me to sell the home or buy them out and give his parents half of the proceeds, the court ordered the entire life insurance policy go to his parents, and left me stuck with all the outstanding medical bills.

So not only did I lose the love of my life, I also lost my home, and ended up being in debt by an additional $5,000 (after paying off his medical and funeral costs - from my half of the proceeds from the house.)

[NoWoodZone]

Sadly Dave, people like tr24 don't care about our lives because they see us as deviants. I'm sorry for your loss. Perhaps someone else with an open mind is reading your post & will realize that every human deserves equal rights including the right to marry the person we love. Someday we won't have to file piles of legal paperwork for protection afforded to the masses.

[Dave01]

I agree. Unfortunately even in some cases, such as mine, the piles of legal paperwork for protection doesn't even grant us "equal" protection.

[PATina]

I am sorry for your loss. I don't mean to sound insensitiv­e... but did you appeal?? Being that his mom filed in Federal Court... this could have been the Roe v. Wade of the Gay Movement. W/ all the legal paperwork you and your partner had... i think it would have been hard for the Supreme Court to deny you. Also... I'm curious as to why the Courts wouldn't force the mother to pay his outstanding medical bills since the two of you weren't "married".

[Dave01]

I agree it could have been. Unfortunately I didn't have the financial backing to continue on in the fight. In addition, I was worn out from just losing him, that I didn't want to drag on the pain any longer.

The reason the court didn't order her to pay his outstanding medical bills is because he was on my medical insurance policy through my employer which in the case of medical responsibility he was my "dependent". It's almost as if they split the issues up and with the ruling simply did everything they could to be "sympathetic" to his "biological" family as opposed to the one he built.

[diogenes1967]

You know, the movement for marriage equality came out of the fight to end AIDS discrimination. But then, the argument for marriage equality was based on the economics involved, especially in cases like this. I am wondering if we shouldn't go back and focus on the economic arguments.

I am sorry for your loss Dave. Makes me just want to get more active, there is so much at stake.

[StillIRise]

I am so genuinely sorry. Your's is the kind of story that needs to be told to as many Americans as can possibly be reached to hear it. It needs to be told in our churches, in our higher-level educational institutions, in our cultural centers, etc. It needs to be an essential part of the organized grassroots effort to make Americans aware of the horrific plight that the LGBT community is forced to contend with. We need to hear this story, and stories like it, to wake us up to a reality that most Americans are either not familiar with or do not have an understanding of. America and the LGBT community itself needs to address this not merely as a constitutional issue, and not simply as a religious issue, but as a human issue. Imagine the magnificent tribute this story can be to both you and your deceased partner, and the love you shared, if it can be used to change the consciousness of our country toward the LGBT movement. I am so, so sorry for your tremendous loss.

[Mattylock]

What a bunch of bull. So sorry for your losses.

[Dave01]

You may think it's bull, but it isn't. It is reality.

[AnotherTry]

Is there any amount of reaching out that would change YOUR mind on the subject?