Slate's Lithwick On Holder: 'Hello, Legal Clarity'

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January 16, 2009 11:13 AM

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When people talk about how "demoralized" the Justice Department has become under the Bush administration, they're not just being glib. Imagine if you worked somewhere where, if asked to name the best boss you had during the twenty-first century, you'd have to answer "John Ashcroft." That's not just rueful ruminations-style demoralization. That's "drink yourself to sleep on a nightly basis" demoralization.

One person who's spoken to the mood at the DOJ best has been Slate's Dahlia Lithwick, and on Tuesday night's Rachel Maddow Show, Lithwick had one wish: that Attorney-General nominee Eric Holder would be immediately asked an "unambiguous question" about torture, and that Holder would provide an unambiguous answer. That, she said, would be telling, as to "whether the goalposts have been moved irrevocably post-[Michael] Mukasey, post-Alberto Gonzalez, or whether the goalposts will be moved back to where they used to be."

As it turned out, the hearings played out exactly this way, striking a stark contrast with the typical foggy memories of Gonzo and the surrealist stratagems of Mukasey. Lithwick, while acknowledging Holder's "wobbliness" on a host of issues (perhaps most galling, the FISA Court), nevertheless gave the nominee some high marks. "Wait! Who is that knocking on the courthouse doors? Hello, legal clarity. I think I recognize you from the late '80s," she said. "[Holder] is capable of answering legal questions with simple declarative sentences, and he has the refreshing ability to admit mistakes. His extraordinary qualifications and the rave reviews of his supporters notwithstanding, after years of near-unchecked lunacy at the Justice Department, that's almost enough."

Her entire piece is worth reading at length, but I am especially cheered by this:

And to the extent anyone attempts to give him a hard time, Holder just calmly pushes back. When John Cornyn, R-Texas, asks multiple times whether Holder would agree to water-board terrorists if it meant preventing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents (and if Jack Bauer would sign his yearbook): Holder replies, "It's hard for me to answer your hypothetical without accepting your premise," explaining that from his discussions with experts, he believes people who are tortured do not yield valuable intelligence. "The premise that underlies that, I'm not willing to accept." When Cornyn tells him that he must accept the false hypothetical, Holder insists he in fact must not.

Patiently pushing back against dumb legal tautologies and a reality governed by television melodramas? I'll definitely have me some more of that.

When people talk about how "demoralized" the Justice Department has become under the Bush administration, they're not just being glib. Imagine if you worked somewhere where, if asked to name the best...
When people talk about how "demoralized" the Justice Department has become under the Bush administration, they're not just being glib. Imagine if you worked somewhere where, if asked to name the best...
 
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- NCRedhead I'm a Fan of NCRedhead 9 fans permalink
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Hallelujah!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 PM on 01/16/2009
- hapiday I'm a Fan of hapiday 103 fans permalink
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"Since waterboarding is torture, what are you going to do about it?"

I agree it should be investigated and I believe a special prosecutor will be asked for. We need to allow the new administration to take office first.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 PM on 01/16/2009
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HELLOOO indeed!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:03 PM on 01/16/2009
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I am from Texas and I cannot stand John Cornyn, he is an embarrassment to Texas.

BIG JOHN (so bad it's funny)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt05KC3Add8

A draft dodger (John Cornyn) beat an Afghanistan War vet (Rick Noriega) down here in Texas, how I will never know.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:57 PM on 01/16/2009
- MANK I'm a Fan of MANK 23 fans permalink

It is Texas. Say no more!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 PM on 01/16/2009
- SethBLiNK I'm a Fan of SethBLiNK 38 fans permalink

"Imagine if you worked somewhere where, if asked to name the best boss you had during the twenty-first century, you'd have to answer "John Ashcroft."

You kind of say it all right there.

On the other hand, it's very convenient that those that believe torture is permissable in some instances also believe it can be effective while those who believe it is not permissible also believe evidence that it is ineffective.

That still leaves unanswered... what if there were an effective technique to elicit crucial information from a prisoner, but it violated the prisoners civil rights. At what point, if ever does it become permissible.

To reject the premise is also to reject the possibility that further research could develop such a technique. What if it is the mere injection of a "truth serum" no more painful than a flu shot, but one that would have to be administered without the subject's permission?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:10 PM on 01/16/2009
- Vige I'm a Fan of Vige 6 fans permalink
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John Cornyn must have watched BillO as he gave that example and showed a clip of 24.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:09 PM on 01/16/2009

The Republican party should now and forever be known as "The Torture Party".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 01/16/2009
- mjeffn I'm a Fan of mjeffn 27 fans permalink

Listening to them talk qualifies as torture in my book.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:47 AM on 01/17/2009
- Jesster I'm a Fan of Jesster 45 fans permalink
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Amen mjeffn.

John Cornyn is Texas's version of Georgia's Saxby Chambliss. And just listening to either of them is, indeed, torture.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:27 AM on 01/17/2009
- avvocato I'm a Fan of avvocato 3 fans permalink
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Finally someone who gets IT! Torture doesn't work. NIAOB!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:56 PM on 01/16/2009
- smudoshi I'm a Fan of smudoshi 67 fans permalink
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Unfortunately, torture DOES work. However, what it does to us as a society is far more detrimental. We do not fight fire with fire, we fight it with water. THEY (the anarchist fundamentalist islamists) have no boundaries in regard to their sense of humanity. It is part of their FAITH, not to believe in the sanctity of human life, which is why they use the tactic of suicide bombings etc. We as a society believe in the sanctity of human life, which is why we cheer when 155 lives are saved by a brave pilot on the Hudson river. Why we are transfixed when a little girl falls down a pipe, and 3 days of heroic efforts saves her. Why we do not object vehemently to the death of over 1000 Palestinians is beyond my understanding though. Fair is fair, and unfair will always be unfair. Laws are the codification of our ethics, not our morals. We must adhere to the ethics of our constitution which forbids "cruel and unusual punishment," which is what defines torture. But we must also be a MORAL nation and apply the same yardstick to measure cruelty all over the world, no matter who perpetrates it. God Bless the USA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 PM on 01/16/2009
- mjeffn I'm a Fan of mjeffn 27 fans permalink

WTF?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 AM on 01/17/2009
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I want to ask Sen Jon Cornyn (R-Texas), if torture is legal when performed for the sole purpose of extracting confessions for use in a court of law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:46 PM on 01/16/2009
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On Rachel's show, Jonathan Turley said a follow up question should have been asked:

"Since waterboarding is torture, what are you going to do about it?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 01/16/2009

Yes, and I think we need to keep his feet to the fire about that. Especially if, politically, Obama does not see fit to encourage prosecution, Holder can prove his independence by, at the very least, investigating.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:09 PM on 01/16/2009
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