Panetta Shoots Down "24 Myth" In Testimony

Earlier this week, Kiefer Sutherland, star of the television series 24, attempted to impose some sanity in an interview with the London Guardian. The short version: Yeah, 24 is a ripping good yarn, but if you think we've proven the efficacy or necessity of torture in counterterrorist policy, you're crazy; there's a distinction between fiction and the real world.

Well, out in the real world, we have Leon Panetta, giving testimony in his confirmation hearings to be the Director of the CIA. Panetta had the opportunity to face the 24 myth straight on. By Spencer Ackerman's account, Panetta was steady, forthright, and reality-based:

"We don't have to choose between our safety and our ideals," Panetta said. If there ever is a ticking time bomb -- and the scenario pretty much doesn't exist in the real world, since it presumes too much and therefore isn't a genuine case -- Panetta said he'd urge "everything possible within the law to get that information ... If you talk to [FBI Director] Bob Mueller, talk to [Sen.] John McCain, talk to Gen. [David] Petraeus, they believe that information can be obtained without resulting to extraordinary measures."

Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.) tries to get Panetta to carve out a loophole. Panetta doesn't bite. "No one is above the law," Panetta says.

Let me add an observation, based on the past few years of watching the pro-torture crowd ply their argument. One on hand, we're told that our national security is dependent on our being willing to indulge in some 24-style brutality -- at minimum -- when the need arises. On the other hand, we hear glib pronouncements -- that waterboarding is just a dunk in the drink, that torture is no worse than the sleepless nights Rudy Giuliani spends on the campaign trail. This is an absolute contradiction. This is policy incoherence. This is the weak link in the chain.

Comments

[Dogger]

It's crazy to set policy based on the series "24". We should be following the Jason Bourne trilogy instead.

[Bardmess]

An anecdote from Modesto California: Recently some childish people, probably children, vandalized a local marble orchard. Volunteers have since repaired the minor damages. A letter-writer to the Modesto Bee thought the vandals should have all their fingers cut off. Really! The Bee published the letter without comment. It gave me the willies.

There is real hatred out there. Be afraid.

[Rog49Thomas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this the guy who was against extraordinary rendition two days ago before he had a late night conversion and then was for it?

[RTIII]

No, you're only reading the bone-headed and wrong headlines; the articles, if you'd read them, were there to tell you that Panetta merely said that he did not have knowledge that extraordinary rendition had in fact taken place.
.

[CarlyS119]

THANK YOU! The fact that someone on this site actually understands that Kiefer Sutherland was injecting sanity into an argument means I have faith in humanity again.

TO those of you who think Kiefer himself or a tv show is to blame as an excuse for powerful men to rule weak minds (torture supporters) I offer you William Shatner's admonition: GET A LIFE.

[RTIII]

Shatner's not a particularly notable character, but on this one he has it right.

I've always thought of him; what's in a name?
.

[rnadna]

To all you torture supporters. Suggest you contact a an expert in waterboarding. Allow yourself 30 something days. Then have yourself waterboarded 24/7 for 3 weeks, along with all the sleep deprivation, humiliation, and naked in a 6 by 6 concrete cell. Then Allow yourself a week to recover.

Then come back to this post and write of your experience. I guarantee you, you will have admitted that you are responsible for 50 cult murders just to make the torture stop!

Those who say that waterboarding is not torture are at most delusional, and at least nuts!

[merger]

Just the threat of torture and I'll admit to anything. It is a stupid principle to think you are going to get anything close to complete unembellished honesty from someone you are hurting. We live in a present world tired of a country who wants to run the planet and give moral dictates while it does whatever it chooses. We have to practice what we preach or the message is no good. What we do speaks so much louder than what we say. It is easy to want to get revenge and slap criminals around. It is the basest of human emotions. It is natural, but what separates us (or should) from the animals is our ability to control ourselves and our meanest impulses.

[MajorKong]

The fact that we're even discussing basing our national policy on a fictional TV show proves we live in Bizarro World.

[Rog49Thomas]

And yet it is strangely (and sadly) appropriate.

Like an individual slipping into Alzheimers, a country slipping into the Third World isn't a pretty sight.

[greginwva]

When I heard Bill O used a clip of Sutherland's character testifying in front of congress defending torture in one of his TV debates, I couldnt believe that even he,could be that deranged.

[Rog49Thomas]

The smart ideologue knows his audience.

The rubes are easily fooled over and over again.

[totalliberal]

The producer and writer of 24 is a very good friend of Rush Limbaugh. Need we say more.

[CarlyS119]

Well... genius... the star of 24 has liberal beliefs and is the grandfather of the man who created socialized medicine in Canada... AND the show this year involves Janeane Garofalo. Post about what you actually KNOW about. It's a tv show, not a scapegoat for the agenda of either side hoicked by the unintelligentsia.

[shades3]

CarlyS119, small correction. Keifer Sutherland is not the grandfather of the man who created socialized medicine in Canada. He is the GRANDSON of Tommy Douglas, who instituted socialized medicine in Canada.
Otherwise, your point about "24" being FICTION is accurate. It is hardly a blueprint for real life, real people, or real government policy when it comes to obtaining information from anyone.

[balickistan]

wait a minute 24 is not real?

what will repubs use as a ficticious argument?

[rnadna]

Its simple. The GOP does live in a fictional world! Just read the the posts from the right wing. Are any based on reality?

Immediately you can tell if its from the right or the left. And some of the posts are really, really out there! Sorry, but they do not live on the same reality plane.

[MargaretO]

It won't matter because they will rip out all funding for education and everyone will be too darn dumb to understand anyway.

[HopeWon2008]

If you torture lovers really want to depend on the fictional show 24 for all of your torture is right information you need to re-watch the first episode when Jack was in front of congress. He basically said (paraphrasing) that our country shouldn't be doing it and that it's wrong.

[Jelperman]

Besides, Harold & Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay is more realistic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_NOc6yH5JY

[HopeWon2008]

I dont understand why NEOCONS and some conservatives think that torture provides actionable intelligence. All they have to do is go back to when MCCain was a prisoner. He said it on the campaign trail many times. When tortured he gave the names of the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive line up. Case closed.

[HarryBeckwith]

Panetta is a great pick for DCI. He is brilliant, politically savvy, and does give an inch when challenged on his values, which are firmly rooted in the American ideal. He is respected by damn near everyone in Washington. If there is a person who can begin the work of rebuilding our country, and to head a department that directly affects attitudes and policies toward us, it is Leon Panetta.

[jnutlfam2]

According to Morning Joe, Obama couldn't have made a worse choice. I dislike the show-had to go CNN.

[Myshkin57]

What would make an interesting and pointed episode of '24' would be one in which they torture to get information and it turns out that they waste time due to the inaccurate information gathered through torture and something truly horrible happens. Even beyond the moral issues with torture itself, the problem with torture is that it not only fails to provide good information, but that it provides less accurate information than non-torture methods. Someone being tortured will say anything to get some relief from torture.

[uglicoyote]

Good that Keifer knows the difference between fiction and reality, even though the rushlicans don't

[Robert McLaughlin]

Don't think President Obama is the end of torture. Another aspect of Bush's legacy is that those brutalized agents of torture we've trained in our military and mercenary forces will be back home looking for work before long. Guess where many of them will work? In our local police forces and prisons. Look forward to having your teenage boy tortured to obtain a confession or information about others by these people. And look forward to horror stories coming from our prison industry. There will be hell to pay right here in home-town USA.

[jnutlfam2]

Never thought of that. Good post. Scary but thought provoking.

[ECBA88]

So... do you have a solution, or did you just wanna make everyone crap themselves?

[RTIII]

Here's one idea: ensure EVERY ONE of our returning vets get QUALITY therapy. Further, those involved in prisoner management tasks should be DE-PROGRAMMED and given completely other skill sets to use when they get out, such as mechanics, electronics, computers, business administration, etc, etc, etc.
.