Senate Stimulus Raises Debt Limit Over $12 Trillion, HuffPo Reader Finds

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Huffington Post   |  Ryan Grim and Matthew Palevsky
First Posted: 02- 9-09 06:51 PM   |   Updated: 03-12-09 05:12 AM

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As President Obama flew to Elkhart, Indiana to sell his stimulus package, Huffington Post readers were looking through the Senate's final version of the bill for new spending and irresponsible cuts.

One reader, who asked to be referred to by the HuffPost handle newmexicogold, found that the new Senate version of the stimulus increases the federal debt ceiling to $12.14 trillion dollars, an addition that had yet to be reported.

Increasing the debt limit is a legally necessary move when spending is increased and not offset by revenue increases. It's also a politically unpleasant thing to do, as it reminds people just how far in the red the national books are. That reluctance explains why it took newmexigold to find the provision, buried on page 586.

We will continue to read through the bill as it goes to conference committee and will take another look at the bill as it emerges from those negotiations. Click here to read the current Senate version and sign up to join our research team.

So far, readers have found numerous places where the Senate cut spending, trimming the bill down to $827 billion. Nancy Cox, a teacher from Wilmington, NC, noted that education spending suffered a disproportionate blow from the recent reductions. Spending on programs such as Head Start, Pell Grants, and school construction have all been gutted. Budgeting for school improvement programs - once slated at $17 billion - now consists of just over $1 billion. And the $3.5 billion set for higher education facilities has been wholly removed. Ninety-eight million in school nutrition has also been cut, as musician Martin Weiss pointed out.

The President also took issue with these cuts at today's town hall forum in Indiana. "I'll be honest with you, the Senate version cut a lot of these education dollars," he said. "I would like to see some of them restored."

HuffPost readers Denise Giardina and Spencer Adams found $1 billion for clean coal investment in the Senate bill. Clean coal, as its opponents point out, does not exist, though Obama, during the campaign, called for investment into it. Giardina wasn't happy to see it inserted into the bill. "This is gobbledy gook about an impossibility which simply encourages the ongoing destruction of the Appalachian Mountains by mountaintop removal," she says.

The American Coalition for Clean Coal Energy, funded by the coal industry, and The Reality Coalition, funded by environmental advocacy organizations, are in the middle of an expensive advertising battle to define the value of so-called clean coal. This $1 billion item is a victory for the coal industry.

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The stimulus package would also appropriate $1.52 billion to "carbon capture" - a process to somehow capture and store carbon emissions. Carbon capture, too, doesn't exist and is opposed as a boondoggle by greens. But as long as the boondoggle spends money on research and equipment, it could still be theoretically stimulative.

Drug-task-force spending was chopped in half, leaving $1.5 billion to be spent under the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistant Grant Program--a project riddled by scandals under the Bush administration and otherwise despised by civil libertarians who see it perpetuating the worst abuses of the drug war.

Another HuffPost reader, who goes by the handle Goodberry, spotted the decreased funding and argued that drug enforcement spending has the potential to drastically increase state debt. She reasons that increased spending will inflate the inmate population, forcing states to pay an average of $24,600 a year per inmate according to 2006 numbers from American Correctional Association. By going after low-level drug offenders, "a few officers may be employed, a few new vehicles purchased... but when arrests are made it actually takes money out of the economy and puts potential workers (and taxpayers) 100 percent on the state's dole," Marion said.

It may be a bit macabre to talk about people's freedom in terms of whether it will grow the economy, but while we're at it, here's the counter argument: putting people on the state dole is perfectly stimulative as long as the federal government props up states so they don't have to offset the increased incarceration costs with teacher layoffs or other spending cuts. Thanks to Sens. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) and Susan Collins (R-Maine), that aid isn't flowing to states, so increased prison costs could be anti-stimulative and lead to layoffs in other state sectors.

A number of advocacy groups have also taken issue with this funding. "If there is going to be government spending, the least you can do is make sure the money is going to have a long term positive impact on the economy," said Leslie Paige, spokesperson for Citizens Against Government Waste.

And Bill Piper of Drug Policy Alliance said "states may well end up paying more in the long run."

Another reader, Virginia Moran, took issue with appropriations for hazardous fuels reduction -- deforestation in areas at high-risk of wildfires -- which has been decreased from $650 million to $485 million. If policy makers are interested in reducing fire related death and property loss, she says, they should concentrate on fireproofing homes and prevent construction on steep slopes, among. "The fire programs have FAILED miserably because they are doing the wrong things," she says.

The President hopes to have this bill through the Senate and out of conference committee by Friday.

Sign up here to join our research team and get a notification when the new language is released.

As President Obama flew to Elkhart, Indiana to sell his stimulus package, Huffington Post readers were looking through the Senate's final version of the bill for new spending and irresponsible cuts. ...
As President Obama flew to Elkhart, Indiana to sell his stimulus package, Huffington Post readers were looking through the Senate's final version of the bill for new spending and irresponsible cuts. ...
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- MPG50 I'm a Fan of MPG50 3 fans permalink
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As Patriots & American citizens we have two important constitutional powers which we can exercise to stop current Left-Wing Representatives from looting our Treasury & mortgaging the future of our grand-children. These powers are: Recall & Referendum. Let's use these powers to depose the liars & thieves in our current government before they do too much damage to us, our families & our country.

We have a FREE $250 Billion Economic Stimulus Plan which solves America's problems of unemployment, oil independence & air pollution with zero cost to taxpayers:
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSQh4zQcThc
And see: http://mpg50.com

God Bless America,
Tim Leahy

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 02/11/2009
- dems08 I'm a Fan of dems08 178 fans permalink
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Question:

Is HuffPost providing a link to all of the findings of readers who provided information for this?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 PM on 02/10/2009

The stimulus package would also appropriate $1.52 billion to "carbon capture" - a process to somehow capture and store carbon emissions.

Is this a joke? Seriously someone pinch me and tell me that I am dreaming.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:59 AM on 02/10/2009
- monkeysuit I'm a Fan of monkeysuit 2 fans permalink

This is what Democrats do, they spend. Clinton was an different but Bush made up for that with his lack of balance. It has been very strange the last few presidents. But we as a country need to realize it takes money to make money we need to spend but in the private sector these companies have money they are just holding on to it. Our model of budgeting based off of projected profit is backwards and leads to trouble in troubled times. We shouldn't be budgeting forward we should be budgeting backwards that way we know what we have and don't count on such uncontrollable factors to run our businesses.


Monkeysuit
http://randompoliticalthoughtsandnews.blogspot.com

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 02/10/2009

The government is a GREAT teacher of credit. That is why the average American is in so much credit card debt.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 AM on 02/10/2009
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 83 fans permalink
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There is something about the presence of reid and pelosi that taints anything the dems try to do. They've got to go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 AM on 02/10/2009
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Why not wait for the Bankers to Testify?

Why a plan that Bails out corrupt Executives?

Why has NOT ONE Executive been replaced?

Why no punishment for developing the Ponzi Scheme that nearly ruined America?

Why Bail out Zombie Banks except to save Downtown New York?

Why NO use of Technology and the internet to form Virtual Banks?

Why NO Government Bank of the People and for the People?

Why No AUDITS of these Banks Balance Sheets and the Toxic Paper stored "OFF-Balan­ce-Sheet?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 AM on 02/10/2009

Well, thanks for the nightmares carol.LOL!!!:) sweet dreams to all!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 AM on 02/10/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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Always happy to share. LOL.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 AM on 02/10/2009
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I've enjoyed our conversations and look forward to more. One of us may have the idea, or a group of ideas that could actually lay the foundation for change and sustained growth.

I have to run off and quell a disturbance on another thread. I moderate a goldminers forum, and there is a bill in committee to reform the General Mining Act of 1672 AND a bill to require registration of all privately owned fire arms. The second bill I haven't reviewed, so I doubt the statements made, which is why I must dash off. The first one I have gone through, and it is a compromise long overdue.

Sleep well, and keep your the optimism!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:37 AM on 02/10/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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Thanks newmexicogold, very enlightening!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 AM on 02/10/2009
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As the Graph shows (from before), we have always pulled out five times since 1974 and we will again.

http://timecuriouscapitalist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/six_recessions.gif?w=597&h=372

The Michel Chossudovsky/Ellen Brown Scenario seems unlikley:

It assumes a level of deception that is hard to grasp and if it is true we are all in HE11.

Under their Scenario Obama would likely not be aware of who and how this would be pulled off.

It would require so many "BAD" players, Apostles, that clearly one of them would eventually be found out unless they had a security system beyond compare. Even Bush and Che_n.ey were discovered with all their hiding.

So while it has some logically appeal it requires s couple of the "BAD" ones to talk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:50 AM on 02/10/2009

Thanks for your input.Please come back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 AM on 02/10/2009
- onenvrnos I'm a Fan of onenvrnos 29 fans permalink
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I hope the General Mining Act of 1672 is completely overhauled.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 PM on 02/10/2009
- 4Q-N4Q2 I'm a Fan of 4Q-N4Q2 7 fans permalink

Lemmie get this straight.......

The "government" has 50 credit cards, and they're MAXED-OUT on every one of them.

So now, they are applying for another 10 credit cards so that they can barely make the minimum payment of the other 50 that they're already in default on. Plus, they're planning to run up even MORE debt on the 10 new cards.

You liberal DIMWITS that think this "stimulus" crap is such a great idea must be some very immature, irresponsible, childish "I want it now!" twits who don't have a clue as to where the money is going to come from to pay back all this debt. You're probably all maxed-out on your own credit cards, and have no intention of paying back what you owe, which is so typical of socialist thieves.

There IS NO NEED FOR STIMULUS!

ONLY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 02/10/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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Is Obama Crying Wolf With This Stimulus Package?

Poll says: Yes. The world won't come to an end if Congress takes its time and gets it right. I'd rather have a week of uncertainty than a lifetime of debt.

Now, I understand the urgency and severity of our economic problems. This morning's report that 598,000 jobs were axed in January -- bringing the unemployment rate to 7.6% -- is proof positive that the economy is in freefall.

Something needs to be done. I just worry that focusing on time rather than quality is a dire mistake. President Obama mentioned this morning that the current version, "is not perfect, but a bill is absolutely necessary.” True, but if we're talking about $800 billion, we deserve as close to perfect as possible.

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2009/02/06/is-obama-crying-wolf-with-this-stimulus-package.aspx?source=ihpdspmra0000001

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 02/10/2009

They made the mistake of waiting with japan.Id rather Throw all the cards in now and try to save what we can.There is no perfect in a demoracy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 AM on 02/10/2009
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I'm no longer fooling myself- I am calling this a depression. At 13 jobs a minute, what is the loss limit for action?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 AM on 02/10/2009
- Gidster I'm a Fan of Gidster 218 fans permalink
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History shows us that waiting will not help.

Wake up! Bush cried wolf with the entire Iraq war! He financed the whole thing! Remember there was a surplus before Bush took office, now it is over ten trillion dollars!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 AM on 02/10/2009
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We are losing 150,000 Jobs per week!

This recession is BAD and almost like 1974 and 1981 in that it is very deep. Here is a graph of the last six recessions:

http://timecuriouscapitalist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/six_recessions.gif?w=597&h=372

I could rebound quickly like 1974 or take four years like 2001.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 AM on 02/10/2009

Hows this.......You voted for bush?YOUR RESPONSIBL­E!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 02/10/2009
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There is no need for name calling. We have access to the same evidence. You choose to build your arguement on the human factor. i build mine on a theory that was followed that had a flaw in it - the same flaw you agree with - greed.

We arrive at different conclusions. I've been watching the laws and regulations create a system where 80% of the wealth is now in the hands of 2% of the population. 28 years ago it was 60% of the wealth owned by 20%.

Those who labored to create the wealth, when adjusted for inflations, saw a ten cents per hour increase in wages. Same 28 years. Productivity and efficiency has improved while wages have been stagnant. The only spending was throught the illusion of credit.

Consider that the party of personal responsibility doubled the deficit over a 5 year period with no return on the investment, unless you are a shareholder in a defense industry. Consider that the institutional retirement accounts have lost 40% or more of their value, the same people who were laboring to create wealth for someone else Consider that while no one was forced to accept a loan, a person approved that loan without evidence of collateral or ability to repay.

Let the banks fail and erase all the shareholder investment. They were paid dividends on the way up to offset the loss.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:51 AM on 02/10/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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I agree. Let the banks fail. Why are we supposed to cover the "investors­/sharehold­ers", as you say? Particularly as we already gave AIG (and before that Bear Stearns) massive "injections". They are coming back for a double-dip. And Geithner's new plan involves attracting new investors in the "bad debts" by having us back up (but not all, mind you) the losses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 AM on 02/10/2009
- DLBSR I'm a Fan of DLBSR 13 fans permalink

It is time for new and bold initiatives if we are going to extricate ourselves from this mess. We cannot focus on shareholder concerns when there are hungry Americans in the streets, our elderly forced to make the decision between eating or buying life-saving medications, families forced to endure the cold because they cannot afford to heat their homes. AS an example of new bold initiatives, we should have bought GM and Chrysler at their $5B value as opposed to loaning them over $17B in December. Throw in Ford and we could have bought all of the BIg Three for about $8B. As of today we have loaned GM and CHrysler, including GMAC Bank, $24.9B. Somebody needs more chlorine in their brain cell pool. We could have restructured, re-tooled, and consolidated this industry for a little more than we have loaned them and began to build the cars America wants and needs. Future industry earnings would have been committed to servicing our massive foreign debt, or even for healthcare. Who would you buy your next new car from. Yourself or an import? Market share would have increased overnight, putting more people to work as opposed to the massive layoffs we are witnessing. Let's begin to EARN OUR WAY OUT OF THIS CRISIS!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:26 AM on 02/10/2009
- Gidster I'm a Fan of Gidster 218 fans permalink
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Get this straight 4Q!

Personal responsibility will not create 4 million jobs lost. Personal responsibility will not replace valueless 401 k's.

Bush showed no fiscal responsibility when his Cleptocracy turned a surplus into a $10 trillion debt!

The money will have to come from the GDP which by the way is shrinking yearly!
Corporate responsibility being to get labor at the cheapest cost, screw American workers we can get it done in Sri Lanka by 8 year olds for $.30 a day!

You conservative fly in the face of all facts, and economic models when you cry "Tax Cuts" as if that wil raise the GDP. Your as ignorant of economics as you are of politics! 4Q sideways!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 AM on 02/10/2009
- karinova I'm a Fan of karinova 27 fans permalink
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Okay.
But by what method do you intend to institute widespread personal responsibility?

And by the way, MY credit cards aren't maxed out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:35 AM on 02/10/2009
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It's always easy to finger point when you don't know the details. I hope I'm not boasting, but I have $465 on one card at prime + 3%.

The culture wars continue. We used to be able to disagree on principle and still have a civil conversation.

I blame the media. Cuz they are fun to lump together.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 AM on 02/10/2009
- mozeovr I'm a Fan of mozeovr 4 fans permalink

We send scrap metal to China to build product to sell to us. Here's a thought: Manufacturers here might use that scrap to build parts for new cars, and the cars themselves, hybrids, electric, and now the air car. Could even scrap all the new and used cars sitting in lots to rebuild the above alternatives, funded by taxpayer, who would be paid back in tax breaks and other incentives to go green. Use the scrap to build rails for high-speed trains and trains themselves. The list is endless. Keep the man on the moon firmly rooted here on earth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:35 AM on 02/10/2009
- DLBSR I'm a Fan of DLBSR 13 fans permalink

Excellent idea. But, if we owned the Big Three automakers outright, which we should demand considering we loaned GM and Chrysler (including GMAC and Chrysler credit) $24.9B when they are only valued at somewhere around $5B, we could be receiving all of the industry's future earnings. Provide the consumer tax breaks and couple that we future earnings, we could REALLY begin to earn our way out of this mess.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 AM on 02/10/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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We really SHOULD have bought the car companies--just like Michael Moore said. The Asians nationalized their car companies, didn't they?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 AM on 02/10/2009
- mozeovr I'm a Fan of mozeovr 4 fans permalink

Obama hinted in his news conference tonight that perhaps the next time he presents a bill before Congress, he'd first offer the Republicans little of what they'd want and expect, i.e. tax cuts, then let them scrabble to get what they want, starting from the bottom. I hope he goes for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 AM on 02/10/2009

That was a great shot!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 02/10/2009
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For the record -he sent a list of program ideas, spending needs that would create jobs,and tax cuts. He campaigned on tax cuts for those earning less than $250,000 a year.

His list added up to $755 billion. A few items had the spending reduced, but none were completely removed from the bill. He didn't get everything he asked for, and the R's didn't get everything they asked for.

Of course, they wanted all the spending to be tax cuts - so why can't they see the middle?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 AM on 02/10/2009
- karinova I'm a Fan of karinova 27 fans permalink
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If I got him right, he was saying maybe he should hold back things that he himself wanted, just to let the G0P feel a little victory by "fighting" to get them put in.

It's also fun to contemplate (and it's also what they deserve), but it doesn't really sound like him. I don't think he was serious; he wouldn't sink to their level.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 AM on 02/10/2009
- desertman I'm a Fan of desertman 15 fans permalink

The Kingsmill Resort & Spa in Williamsburg, Va., where House Democrats met for their annual retreat over the weekend was on the taxpayer dime. You helped pay for a chartered round-trip train to the historic city, rooms for over 200 House members and their entourage of assistants and security, dinners starting at $60 a head and an undisclosed number of massages, tee offs and old-fashioneds at the bar. The government won’t tell us exactly how much they spent.

Wasn’t it a chorus of Democratic congressmen who were ticked off about AIG’s retreat after accepting taxpayer money? And forced Wells Fargo under pain of public embarrassment to cancel their junket to Miami last week?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 PM on 02/09/2009

$60.00 bucks a head? thats cheap.Good for them!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 PM on 02/09/2009
- desertman I'm a Fan of desertman 15 fans permalink

lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 PM on 02/09/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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What about the rooms, the plane fare and the tickets? I think they should have stayed in D.C. and worked from government offices and ordered sandwiches. If we are supposed to be on an austerity program, maybe they could lead by example.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 PM on 02/09/2009
- sueinmn I'm a Fan of sueinmn 101 fans permalink
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I thimk a phone marathon is needed now to keep the Buy American in the stimulus. This has been watered down because of threats of trade wars. We all know once some of these compnaies gets the
ir hands on it, it will go to China! Can we afford that?

Phone Numbers Obama Reception
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461
TTY/TDD
Comments: 202-456-6213
Visitors Office: 202-456-2121
Senators
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 PM on 02/09/2009
- sueinmn I'm a Fan of sueinmn 101 fans permalink
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Not only for raw materials China is in the production of Wind Towers and many of them are established here in the states. We have wind tower plants here also but these big companies prefer Chinese labor over ours.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 PM on 02/09/2009
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This is changing with European investors and corporations. It is cheaper to build them here than to ship them here. Spain has a plant in PA, employing former steelworkers and leasing the building formerly used by steel companies.

The market for American made solar products is Germany, Japan and Denmark, with America last on the list. Those countries passed laws 8 years ago to reduce their dependecy on commoditiesand reduce pollution.

Denmark has a full third of it's country's electricity provided by offshore wind turbines.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:09 AM on 02/10/2009
- desertman I'm a Fan of desertman 15 fans permalink

Who will buy the debt this stimulus bill will spin off? Take a guess.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 02/09/2009
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The same patriotic Americans who's families bought war bonds, I presume. Gates and Hathaway-Berkshire come to mind. As does George Soros. I will too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 02/09/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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Why China's Stimulus Plan Will Change the World

The U.S. has a $20 billion monthly trade deficit with China. It's funded by China's willingness to hold U.S. treasuries in its Central Bank (essentially, we're borrowing the money). China manages the arrangement by pegging its currency (the yuan) to the dollar at an artificially low rate, and by not worrying so much about certain niceties like environmental regulation and labor protection.

It's a mutually beneficial arrangement -- a weak yuan supports Chinese exporters, helping the country industrialize and quickly integrate rural migrants into its urban workforce, with the salutary effect of keeping inflation and potential political unrest low. For its part, the U.S. has gotten dirt cheap financing, by virtue of China parking more than a trillion dollars in U.S. government securities. That has supported the dollar and allowed the Federal Reserve to fuel consumer spending by keeping interest rates low.

China's stimulus package heralds the UNWINDING of this relationship.

http://www.fool.com/investing/international/2008/11/12/why-chinas-stimulus-plan-will-change-the-world.aspx

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 PM on 02/09/2009
- Emlyn I'm a Fan of Emlyn 9 fans permalink

What, pray tell me, are we do? Let the country go down the drain? Do you have a better idea?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 AM on 02/10/2009
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The Buy American provision is for iron and Steel products only. It is likely to remain in the bill - once State explains it. Other countries aren't used to us telling the truth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 02/10/2009
- sueinmn I'm a Fan of sueinmn 101 fans permalink
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Its been watered down but still carrys some provisions for public works jobs. (steel portion) Wind towers may be an exclusion. many lawmakers are holding strong for it sounds like.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 AM on 02/10/2009
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Something I find interesting. I read that if the Congress passes a bill that increases the national debt, it has to pass by a 60 margin. My question is, then why didn't that apply each time the Bush Administration came back for another trillion dollars to occupy Iraq? And all that money was "off the books". Actually, I wonder if it is included in our 10.5 trillion dollar national debt at all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 02/09/2009
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It did require the law to be changed. The provision was buried in a war appropriations amended spending bill. Few were watching or listening, except for the government watchdog goups.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 PM on 02/09/2009

Because, the Minority Party at that time were either sleeping, turn the other way, even easier to close their eye to the looting of the National Treasury, inept, had no balls to argue for the people, and acquieced to the looting for their self interest.

And when they become the majority - Pelosi and Reid sold the American Public. They let the Republicans do whatever they please. Most of them voted for the Iraq War during the Bush first term, and year after year after yearl, they approved incremental budgets to my dismay. Both split the loot, and our soldiers got shafted. Nothing new.

No one can convince me that the Republicans alone were corrupt and greedy. The Iraq war annual budget were approved by Congress each time.

The 60 margin is NOT new. The Republican T H U G S didn't have to do anything to get 60, the Democrats gave them the margin.

You're just finding that now ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 PM on 02/09/2009

They were lied to.
Dick Cheney lied to me on war, says GOP leader
According to a new book on Cheney called "Angler," by Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman, Armey, a Texas Republican, had spoken out against the war. Cheney was trying to change his mind. So the vice president told him the threat from Iraq was actually "more imminent than we want to portray to the public at large." In Armey's account, Cheney told him:

Iraq's "ability to miniaturize weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear," had been "substantially refined since the first Gulf War," and would soon result in "packages that could be moved even by ground personnel....We now know they have the ability to develop these weapons in a very portable fashion, and they have a delivery system in their relationship with organizations such as Al Qaeda."

"Did Dick Cheney ... purposely tell me things he knew to be untrue?" Armey said. "I seriously feel that may be the case...Had I known or believed then what I believe now, I would have publicly opposed [the war] resolution right to the bitter end, and I believe I might have stopped it from happening."

DONT bring that up again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 PM on 02/09/2009
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A check of the appropriation bills and the vote record will prove that many voted no to every spending. They were called unpatriotic and unamerican. They kept voting no. Read the vote records and come back.

Pelosi and Reid always voted against the spending. The arm breaking to get 60 votes were Senators who sacrificed their own careers for a social program here and there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:45 PM on 02/09/2009

what about money for nuclear energy? It works for the French.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 PM on 02/09/2009
- sueinmn I'm a Fan of sueinmn 101 fans permalink
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We have plants built that never went online. much controversy both sides of this one. We still havent dealt with permanent storage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 PM on 02/09/2009
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Much of it gets buried in NM and Nevada. The controversy with Nevada is the proximity to the San Andreas fault, and the potential leak caused by an earthquake.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:15 PM on 02/09/2009

They should have a NASA progran to shoot it into space.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:30 PM on 02/09/2009
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There is an appropriation in the bill. I must state that it is a continuation of the thinking that commodities will not reach peak, towards depletion. What our President didn't day during his ecplanation regarding weatherization is that when twenty people are conserving a resource,one person is making less profit on a commodity.

So far,now one has figured out a way to charge for the sun or wind. It is renewable, as is geothermal energy. Those resisting the concept want to continue to earn moey from a commodity. As the availability of the commodity deminishes though consumption, the value increases.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 02/09/2009
- AsISaid I'm a Fan of AsISaid 25 fans permalink
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Your point about whether or not wind and solar are commodities is a good one. I've been in legislative hearings where the debate was that if taxed, would wind and solar be viewed as a utility or a product. Interesting stuff

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:15 PM on 02/09/2009
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