Gun Permits: What The Latest Mass Killings Have In Common

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DEBORAH HASTINGS | 04/ 7/09 07:43 PM | AP

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FILE - This file image provided by News 10 Now in Syracuse, N.Y. on Monday April 6, 2009 shows Jiverly Wong's gun permit. A letter that included three photos, a gun permit and Wong's driver's license was mailed to News 10 Now and postmarked Friday April 3, the day Wong killed 13 people before taking his own life in the American Civic Association community center in Binghamton, N.Y. There have been seven rampages that have claimed 53 lives since March 10 in this country, and nearly every gunman in this month-long series of mass killings was legally entitled to wield the weapons he opened fire with. (AP Photo/News 10 Now)

They had more in common than unleashing carnage _ nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons.

So what does that say about the state of gun control laws in this country? One thing appears certain: the regulations aren't getting stricter. Many recent efforts to change weapons laws have been about easing them.

Despite eight rampages that have claimed 57 lives since March 10, "it hasn't sparked any national goal to deal with this epidemic. In fact, it's going the other way," said Scott Vogel of the Freedom States Alliance, a gun control activist group.

Even President Barack Obama has felt that sway. Last month, 65 House Democrats said they would block any attempt to resurrect an expired federal ban against assault weapons.

The pro-gun Democrats, led by Rep. Mike Ross of Arkansas, wrote Attorney General Eric Holder saying they opposed not only a ban on military-style guns, but also efforts "to pass any similar law."

Gun control issues would only produce "a long and divisive fight," they said, at a time when Congress should be focused on the roiling economy.

A few states are trying to loosen gun restrictions. In the Texas Capitol _ where legislators can carry guns _ bills easily passed the Senate in recent weeks that would allow employees to bring weapons to work as long as they leave them locked in their cars, and let those packing heat off the legal hook if they walked into a bar that didn't have signs saying guns weren't allowed inside.

The state also is considering allowing students licensed to carry a concealed weapon _ there are about 300,000 such adults in Texas _ to bring guns on campus.

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Kansas plans to put a measure on its 2010 ballot that would rewrite the state constitution to make gun ownership a personal, rather than collective, right. In Tennessee, lawmakers made progress this month toward allowing guns to be carried in state and local parks.

"I think you're seeing a continuing change of culture," Vogel said. "I think the gun lobby wants to take away any stigma to gun ownership. I think they feel emboldened, like who's going to stop them?"

The National Rifle Association, the country's most powerful gun lobbying group, declined to comment this week on gun control laws. "Now is not the time to debate politics or discuss policy. It is time for families and communities to grieve and to heal," it said in a prepared statement.

Groups such as Vogel's, and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, say existing laws are already too weak _ just look at the men who received gun permits, legally bought high-powered weapons, and then mowed down family, friends and total strangers in these past few weeks, they say.

Joining their outrage was the U.S. Conference of Mayors. "How many more gun-related acts of violence must we experience before the nation's leaders will decide that it is time to act?" asked president Manuel Diaz, mayor of Miami.

Gun enthusiasts say there is no way to prevent human beings from committing insane acts _ whether they have a gun permit or not. And studies conflict on whether stricter gun laws lessen gun violence.

On Friday, a depressed and angry Jiverly Wong used a 9 mm and .45-caliber handgun to kill 13 immigrants and service center employees in Binghamton, N.Y., police said. Earlier that day, the ethnic Chinese immigrant from Vietnam mailed an envelope to a Syracuse television station. In it were his gun permit, photos of him smiling while hoisting shiny, big handguns, and his driver's license.

Questions have been raised over the upstate New York gun permit issued to Wong in 1997. Two years later, he was reported to state police by an informer who claimed Wong was planning a bank heist to feed a crack-cocaine habit. Unlike other areas of the state, including New York City, Wong's Broome County permit did not have to be renewed.

Local authorities, however, have broad discretion in reviewing and revoking such permits, according to legal experts. Especially when it comes to drug use, criminal behavior and violence.

"In retrospect, this is probably not a guy who should have had a gun," said attorney Jeffrey Chamberlain, a former Rochester prosecutor and chief counsel to the New York State Police. "No one likes to see things fall through the cracks and it looks like this guy fell through the cracks."

Binghamton police chief Joseph Zikuski said Tuesday that no robbery occurred and there was no merit to review Wong's gun permit.

In New York City, gun permits are reissued every three years.

Yet, regulations differ only slightly between states, Chamberlain said. "They're fairly typical _ don't be a felon, don't be a drunk, don't beat your kids or your wife. Don't be so mentally unbalanced that you need be in an institution."

To Chamberlain, the answer to gun violence lies not in stricter regulations, but in answering the question, "Why are we so tolerant of having guns in this country? The answer to that is historical. We've had guns for a very long time.

"I can't think of any sweeping law change that would address that."

To Vogel, the answer to why atrocities happen in places such as Binghamton, and before that Washington state and Santa Clara, Calif., lies in sheer numbers.

The number 280 million, to be precise, the estimated total of every gun in this country.

"When you have that many guns, those guns are going to be used in horrific ways," Vogel said. "There's just too many. Inevitably, somehow, some way, those weapons are going to be used in an egregious way."

They had more in common than unleashing carnage _ nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons. So what does that say about the state of gun ...
They had more in common than unleashing carnage _ nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons. So what does that say about the state of gun ...
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- rblaquinta I'm a Fan of rblaquinta 20 fans permalink

Today more people shot down...I fear domestic terrorism much more the foreign...­3 out of 5 homes have at least 3 guns...who knows maybe machine guns, etc. for all we know. People drive around with guns.....p­eople this is TERRORISM YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 04/08/2009
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 69 fans permalink
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Co-sign. You think Bin Laden has to worry about us? We are self-destructing. All he did was light the fuse or should I say pull the trigger.

We're killing ourselves in the name of national defense?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:09 PM on 04/08/2009
- oldcliche I'm a Fan of oldcliche 16 fans permalink

How is owning or transporting a gun an act of terrorism? Can it frighten you enough, that just knowing they exist causes you to fear them?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 04/08/2009

Don't forget about your neighbors. I'm sure they're honest if they tell you they don't own guns.

;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 PM on 04/08/2009

Great!! Caring a gun is a constitutional right just like getting shot by some psycho with anger management issues.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 04/08/2009
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That's contitutional right I would give away...the­y wouldn't have to take it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 AM on 04/08/2009
- Glocksf21 I'm a Fan of Glocksf21 20 fans permalink
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we could make mental health recors available to the BATF, and that way it would show up on a background check when purchasing any firearm. but the aclu said that was unconstitutional.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 AM on 04/08/2009
- All in All I'm a Fan of All in All 62 fans permalink

The Aclu would be wise to rethink their view, because a lot more people are starting to see things in a clearer view.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:30 AM on 04/08/2009
- Glocksf21 I'm a Fan of Glocksf21 20 fans permalink
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the nra already made this suggestion, and the brady camp agreed. but the american civil liberty union put the breaks on this kind of legislation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:33 AM on 04/08/2009

It has to be a dual attempt. Someone can be fine but snap when the proper stressors are triggered. Mental health care must be beefed up especially in this economic climate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 AM on 04/08/2009
- All in All I'm a Fan of All in All 62 fans permalink

Indeed!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 AM on 04/08/2009
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that needs to be looked at again.....­there are privacy issues that need to be addressed but if that is done, the BATF should have those records.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 AM on 04/08/2009

Guess what? I don't give a "hang" about the 2nd Amendment. I was given this life by a higher power and I have an obligation to protect myself and my family from harm. So let's see, I'm a bad guy and have a gun cause I don't follow the rules. I need some money for my crack habit - do I go to Wild West City where law abiding citizens have guns or should I go to Chicago or DC, where there's a ban on guns... hmmm... easy decision.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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I don't even get what you are trying to say.

God says you are obligated to protect yourself and your family? I've never heard that one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:29 AM on 04/08/2009
- derekw007 I'm a Fan of derekw007 10 fans permalink
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I think He said it right after He said "homos are bad and Jesus loves money."

You know, never.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 AM on 04/08/2009

Read my words again, this time go s-l-o-w-l-y so your fifth grade IQ can attempt to understand my 10th grade writing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 AM on 04/08/2009

Yep clinging to guns and religion.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 04/08/2009
- All in All I'm a Fan of All in All 62 fans permalink

You speak as if people want to ban every type of gun.......­...when that honestly isn't true at all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 04/08/2009
- Borborigny I'm a Fan of Borborigny 5 fans permalink
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Maybe you don't, but read on -- plenty do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 AM on 04/08/2009
- Borborigny I'm a Fan of Borborigny 5 fans permalink
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Too bad you can't just go to the drug or liquor store to get your crack, where the cost would be so low you could finance a day's partying with a few hours of panhandling -- just like all the prescription drug addicts and alcoholics do.

I agree with your right to defense AND your right to use whatever medicines you can afford, as long as you don't violate the rights of others.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 04/08/2009

What are you talking about dude? You've got about 3 different scenerio's going on here. You have a gun (it sounds like illegally), you want to buy crack (again illegal) and you don't know what city to do all this in.

I vote for DC.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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Not the Wild West?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 AM on 04/08/2009

How could this be the wrong thread if the article is about people loosing it and killing people. What did they all have in common. No mental health treatment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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We do get that we need better mental health treatment. Okay, we get it. Does that mean that everyone who kills someone is mentally ill? I don't think so. Some who kill in these mass killings are, others aren't.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 AM on 04/08/2009
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 69 fans permalink
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"No mental health treatment.­"

...and easy access to guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 PM on 04/08/2009
- BruceHNV I'm a Fan of BruceHNV 64 fans permalink

The vast majority of multiple killers actually HAVE had mental health treatment.

It can be argued that psych drugs exacerbate, rather than mitigate the risk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 04/08/2009

That's right. Sometimes doctors are too quick to dole out the medication or don't follow up. This is also what I mean by no treatment. As well, in some cases there is domestic fighting but the families are left to deal with their sick family members by themselves.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:10 PM on 04/08/2009
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I have read a lot of these blogs and I am not sure what to think anymore. There have been 21 people killed in mass shootings in the Unites States in the past month and all some people can do is talk about their right to own a gun. If you value the lives of these people it is time to have a meaningful discussion on what needs to be done to try and lessen these kinds of deaths. I would hope no one becomes desensitized to them

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 AM on 04/08/2009

Thank you!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 04/08/2009
- Borborigny I'm a Fan of Borborigny 5 fans permalink
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Maybe you ought to read the whole thread. The folks defending their 2nd Amendment rights do so in response to the folks claiming that restricting (or eliminating) those rights will somehow produce a "safer" society. Interspersed between the gun rights/no gun rights debate are posts by a few thoughtful folks who put forth the very compelling argument that our gun problems are really the result of our lack of comprehensive healthcare, our woeful economy, our DRUG WAR and the way we turn away from those in desperate need. Fixing those problems is, for most it seems, far too daunting to even consider when "BAN THEM" is so simple, albeit utterly simplistic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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Get over the possiblity of eliminating the right to own a gun. That is never going to happen. As long as you believe that any restriction means we go down the slippery slope to banning guns, we can never talk rationally about reasonable restrictions.

So, am I to assume that you support affordable health care for everyone (or are you referring to that as socialism as do so many on the Right)? I do. I would like to see these issues addressed. But that doesn't mean I can't also see the need for some reasonable restrictions on gun ownership.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 AM on 04/08/2009
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I will never disagree that mental health care is woefully inadequate. However, all of the people in this story were able to get a gun and they used it ti kill 21 people. Let's not forget the consequence of using those guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 AM on 04/08/2009
- JulieSA I'm a Fan of JulieSA 165 fans permalink
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Well said. Politicians usually seek the simplistic solution, even if it actually does no good, just so they can say they did something at election time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 AM on 04/08/2009

Why does the majority not have any voice or representation in a process that protects the lobbyists interests, and their PAC representations through legislation that gets passed that robs the majority of their right to be represented and their voices heard and reflected in the democratic process?

Would the list of PAC recipients of corporate donations from the bank/lending industry look similar to the list of PAC recipients from donations by the munitions industry?

What would the PAC donors list look like? Whose names would appear?
What would the PAC recipients list look like? Which congressional leaders names would appear?
Which elected officials names would show up as sponsoring the legislation that ends up causing the tax payer to be stripped of their right to be protected, defended, and represented in legislation passed in Congress that have to do with where the money goes and doesn't go, who profits and who doesn't, and in whose favor laws are passed, and not passed, and who bears the burdens of deregulatory efforts by our elected officials?

Where is the response from our elected leaders? Where are the town halls, the focus groups, the representation that serves the public's interests?

Where is democracy in the goverment by lobbyists and special interests process - that ends up squeezing out THE PEOPLE'S INTERESTS?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 AM on 04/08/2009
- BruceHNV I'm a Fan of BruceHNV 64 fans permalink

You have a point. The same political side of the spectrum that pushed for and obtained the "freedom" to create this depression also pushes for and "protects" the right to be in possession of lethal instrumentalities.

So - they ensured the populace was armed;

Ginned up fear and loathing of "libruls" who want to squash all your liberties, create a com munist state and seize all your gu ns;

Gutted manufacturing, the economy, wages and employment, hid it under a huge credit bubble which finally burst, bringning us this depression;

And now want us to focus on "personal responsibility" while the nutkases they helped terrify and then threw into the streets run wild with their lawfully obtaines arms.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 04/08/2009

Good post. I would never repost something unless I attached the writer's name:)
Regarding the test I think it would still allow some to slip through the cracks. As well, someone could break after legally attaining a gun. In addition, a 17 year old killed his sisters last week. He decapitated one and stabbed repeatedly the others. These kinds of occurences are not affected by gun laws one way or another. They are also avoidable. The only solution to these killings is a closer look at mental health care (or complete lack of it). I am frustrated by the refusal of this discussion and the insistance on the political arguement. It is like everyone only cares about their ego. That they are right about the law on guns etc. But they are not willing to talk about a real solution to a real problem.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 AM on 04/08/2009

After all, you can stop all drunk driving fatalities by outlawing cars!

...and yet, for some odd reason, gun owners seem very combative about reasonable measures like no concealed carry in urban areas, or certification that they can properly handle a firearm, or requiring a record of ownership and proper vetting between gun vendor and gun purchaser by law enforcement.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 04/08/2009
- eahce I'm a Fan of eahce 11 fans permalink

It is my hypothesis that EVERY gunmen was under the influence of antidepressants.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 04/08/2009
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Tin-foil hat...just kidding...­but where are you going with your hypothesis?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 PM on 04/08/2009
- BruceHNV I'm a Fan of BruceHNV 64 fans permalink

I don't think you can say "every." Factually, the majority of them, especially school shooters, have been. It dousn't usually come out right away, but in the days or weeks following a massacre, you finally find mention of it on page 6, below the fold.

SSRIs ("antidepressants") have a strong disinhibitory effect. So if you are having destructive, violent or self-destructive ideation, these can be translated straight into action when the system is flooded with serotonin.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 04/08/2009
- eahce I'm a Fan of eahce 11 fans permalink

Ok, my point being, the government will use this as an excuse to ban guns, while the real problem is big pharma pushing their garbage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 04/08/2009
- Boboday555 I'm a Fan of Boboday555 116 fans permalink
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Americans are for gun control.
The NRA, GOP and RNC is for COP KILLER BULLETS!

...any questions???

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:15 AM on 04/08/2009
- Dimensio I'm a Fan of Dimensio 21 fans permalink

Please substantiate your assertion. Define "cop killer bullets" and show that the National Rifle Association, the Republican Party and the Republican National Committee are "for" such things.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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armor piecing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 AM on 04/08/2009
- JulieSA I'm a Fan of JulieSA 165 fans permalink
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Yes, I have questions.

What's a cop killer bullet? Is that something you made up? I've never seen those in the stores.

Why did several hundred marxists march in support of the Oakland cop ki ller?

Why do you still want to Free Mumia?

Why did you vote for a guy who's friends with a Weather Underground copki ller?

Why did Bill Clinton pardon a cop ki ller on his last day pardon sale?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 AM on 04/08/2009
- Boboday555 I'm a Fan of Boboday555 116 fans permalink
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Seriously?
You've never heard of them?
Wow!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 PM on 04/08/2009
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I think you just proved just how ignorant you are!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:49 PM on 04/08/2009
- Glocksf21 I'm a Fan of Glocksf21 20 fans permalink
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and the 911 operator failed to tell the officers in pittsburg he was armed....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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So guns don't kill, 911 operators do?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 AM on 04/08/2009

I think Glocksf21 is just showing what a waste 911 is.

I had to call 911 when I found an old man in a pool of blood on the sidewalk, 911 never answered..­.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:54 PM on 04/08/2009
- Glocksf21 I'm a Fan of Glocksf21 20 fans permalink
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911 MAD A MISTAKE, and it turned out to be fatal. and I'm absolutley positive it was not intentional. but a mistake never the less.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:18 PM on 04/08/2009
- Boboday555 I'm a Fan of Boboday555 116 fans permalink
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Police Departments across this nation are demanding tougher gun control legislation as they watch more and more of their fellow officers fall in the line of duty!!!

The NRA, GOP and RNC want looser gun control legislation to appeal to their base of republicans children!
The NRA, GOP and RNC think elections are more important than Police Officer's lives!

So much for the GOP being the party of Jesus huh?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 AM on 04/08/2009

Last time I checked, it was Democrats who sent the letter to Holder letting him know they'll oppose any new AWB, not the Repubs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 04/08/2009
- motoboy I'm a Fan of motoboy 12 fans permalink
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So.....som­e of you want to institute a system where the weak
and elderly are at the mercy of the strong, the lone are at the
mercy of the gang. You want to give violent criminals a government
guarantee that citizens are disarmed.

Sorry, that's unacceptable. Better that we should require every citizen to carry a gun.

I voted for Obama because McCain (in Bush tradition) appeared to be more dangerous to my civil rights. Obama would lose my support by impairing my self defense civil right by signing a new anti-gun law. ANY new anti-gun law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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Does that mean my kids need guns?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 AM on 04/08/2009
- All in All I'm a Fan of All in All 62 fans permalink

No takers lori, extremist usually stay away from rational people, when it comes to words that is!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 AM on 04/08/2009

That should be up to you and your family. It wasn't that long ago kids DID have guns. Do you want to see the stats on how many murders are committed with knives? In the scale of things it would scare you. You want to see the stats on how many rapes occur every year? Why not castrate men get rid of the weapon. Ok so lets put all the pit bulls down That should solve it.

The problem is bigger than any weapon ....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 PM on 04/08/2009
- All in All I'm a Fan of All in All 62 fans permalink

Nice Try.....

Would it be anti-gun to have Gun Owners take a psychology test before one is allowed to purchase any type of gun, and that every Gun Owner must take a reoccurring scheduled psychology test thereafter as long as one is a Gun Owner; in order to insure the safety of all the Citizens living within the United States Of America ?

And yes, the Gun Owner should & would be allowed to have the psychology test preformed by the psychologist of ones choice, and one can ask to have the test redone at any given time.

If You think that the above is anti-gun rhetoric please explain how&why ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 AM on 04/08/2009
- motoboy I'm a Fan of motoboy 12 fans permalink
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Would you agree to take such a test before being allowed to own a car? Cars arguably facilitate much more violent crime than guns by serving as a means of quickly getting to and from a crime scene.

Well, would you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 AM on 04/08/2009
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You are a very scared person. Is it guilt driven? Do you burn crosses on peoples yards or something? Are you a contributor to systematic injustice? I have no facts or anything to justify what I say. But over the years I have noticed that those that commit or subscribe to injustice are usually the ones that have their finger on the trigger. The question becomes is the weapon to stop injustice, or keep injustice alive.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 AM on 04/08/2009

Are you insane! You must be. If that was the case I would probably be dead right now. My mom back in her drug days flipped out because she didn't recogonize who I was one morning. I woke her up and she thought I was someone breaking into the house. She screamed and beat the hell out of me. It took a few minutes of screaming, "Mommy its me! Mommy its me!" before she snapped out of it. I'm pretty sure that if she had a gun by her bed, she would have used it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 AM on 04/08/2009
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Motoboy..W­hat can I say...In my world the weak and the lone are those people who choose not to carry a gun and are forced to fear those who think it is their right to carry a gun with no restrictions and no regulations.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 AM on 04/08/2009
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"forced to fear those who think it is their right to carry a gun with no restrictions and no regulation­s."
So you're afraid of the people not the guns?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 04/08/2009
- Durango I'm a Fan of Durango 144 fans permalink

How come none of these incidents were prevented by those citizens who are carrying concealed weapons?

Isn't that the rational? they will whip out their Glocks and wack the bad guys.

Doesn't seem to be happening does it?

maybe because these situations are so dangerous even highly trained police officers have a difficult time with them. And civilians are clueless.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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I am sure there are people with guns who are well trained and would know what to do (former military), but the thought of guns whipped out to wack the bad guys scares me as much as the bad guys. I can't imagine that it would turn out well if some of these armed citizens got involved.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 AM on 04/08/2009
- Dimensio I'm a Fan of Dimensio 21 fans permalink

Can you justify your concerns regarding armed citizens by showing how the involvement of a legally "armed citizen" responding to a criminal ultimately worsened a violent incident?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 AM on 04/08/2009
- Dimensio I'm a Fan of Dimensio 21 fans permalink

The incident in Binghamton occurred in a locale where it is very difficult for private citizens to carry concealed deadly weapons. The incident in Pennsylvania occurred as an altercation with the police, where few, if any, other citizens were present.

I am unaware of any individual who has suggested that allowing for the carrying of concealed deadly weapons will result in mentally ill shooters universally being stopped by a citizen who "whips out" a "Glock". I do not understand the rational basis for your inquiry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 04/08/2009
- JulieSA I'm a Fan of JulieSA 165 fans permalink
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"Though press accounts downplayed it, the 2002 shooting at Appalachian Law School was stopped when a student retrieved a gun from his car and confronted the shooter. Likewise, Pearl, Miss., school shooter Luke Woodham was stopped when the school's vice principal took a .45 fromhis truck and ran to the scene. In February's Utah mall shooting, it was an off-duty police officer who happened to be on the scene and carrying a gun." Plus Jeanne Assam who stopped the Colorado Springs church massacre.

It's very difficult to get a CCW in NY, so it's highly unlikely that any of those people a the center were carrying. Spree shooters tend to target areas where guns are banned, like schools and civic centers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 AM on 04/08/2009
- loria I'm a Fan of loria 153 fans permalink
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You left out churches. Oh wait, people can carry guns in churches. Yet somehow spree shooters target churches too. Go figure.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:21 AM on 04/08/2009
- Durango I'm a Fan of Durango 144 fans permalink

Off duty cops and trained security people do not count.

The point is that you need extensive training to deal with these situations.

And even the cops don't always get it right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 PM on 04/08/2009
- Glocksf21 I'm a Fan of Glocksf21 20 fans permalink
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Gun free zones, I guess the killer disobeyed the law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 AM on 04/08/2009

As a CCW holder in Ohio, I generally find my self stuck with leaving my pistol in the car, because virtually every place of business here has a "no concealed weapons allowed" sticker on the window, and the potential legal consequences are far too high for me to ignore these, even though no-one would probably ever know. Quite often, I notice these mass killings take place in post offices, shopping malls, and the like because any half-wit who wants to go on a rampage knows that these are the places where they would be least likely to meet any resistance. This is probably why the "home invasion" phenomenon is also relatively rare - too many people have a gun in the house to protect themselves and their family.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 AM on 04/08/2009
- Boboday555 I'm a Fan of Boboday555 116 fans permalink
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I love reading these NRA children's posts about their guns protecting themselves from the "governmen­t."
As if some hick in a tin shack could hold off the the United States Military!
This is the way of all neo-confederate arguments lately.
When you really look at the whole arsenal of neo-confederate idealogy, you see how out of touch with America they've become!

The neo-confederates actually sided with the CEO's during the A.I.G. bonus scandal!
With these latest gun tragedies, the neo-confederate gun lovers are siding with the murderers NOT the Police Officers.
I knew neo-confederates were nuts but this is ridiculous!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 AM on 04/08/2009

If you took away all guns from civilians, next week you'd find out how cheap and easy it is to make a bomb. You want to talk about destruction? Also, look up the info about home made zip guns the gangs made in the 50's. Couple of bucks to produce.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:59 AM on 04/08/2009
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