Obama Notre Dame Debate: O'Donnell Smacks Down Buchanan (VIDEO)

Lawrence O'Donnell and Pat Buchanan faced off on Hardball Thursday over President Barack Obama's invitation to deliver the commencement speech at Notre Dame. Many Catholics, including 10 Notre Dame priests, have protested the invitation because of the president's position on abortion.

Both O'Donnell and Buchanan are Catholic, but they disagreed on whether or not Obama should speak at a Catholic University. The debate got heated when O'Donnell pointed out that former President George W. Bush was invited to speak at the school, despite the fact he supported the death penalty and launched the Iraq war, against the wishes of the Pope. O'Donnell went so far as to say this was a "fake controversy, run by religious fanatics."

O'DONNELL: This is the same university that invited George W. Bush, this is the same religion that stands in adamant contradiction to the death penalty. This is the same religion, whose head, the Pope, plead personally with not to launch an unprovoked invasion and war in Iraq ... That same president, George W. Bush, who used the death penalty more than anyone who has ever been in the Oval Office, that president was welcomed at Notre Dame with none of these objections.

O'Donnell blasted Buchanan for supporting the double standard and condemning abortion but defending George W. Bush's position on the death penalty, in contradiction to his Catholic beliefs.

O'DONNELL: Can you identify a theological principle in which you believe that the Catholic church knows ... that the killing of a fetus is worse that the killing of an adult? Can you identify that Pat, because it doesn't exist ... You are lying about what the Catholic Church position is. You have to agree with me right now that the Catholic Church is opposed on moral grounds every single use of the death penalty that this country has ever done.

WATCH:

Comments

[Akat1973]

I was so thrilled to watch O'Donnell slam the truth on the table,and Pat he was just having a fit!
I guess the truth hurts!
hypocrisy exposed~

[fignozzle]

i am tiring of Pat Buchannan and his "shut up"s.

[lovenews]

It saddens me to hear that there is so much protest surrounding the speaking engagement with President Obama at Notre Dame. Where were the protests when President Bush spoke at Notre Dame in 2001?

President Bush has said he supports a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion except in cases of rape or incest. So, let me understand this; Pro-Life means picking and chosing who has a right to life? For political reason President Bush chose not to pursue pushing his pro-life beliefs and decided to leave abortion issues to each state. President Bush's decision not to pursue enforcing anti-abortion laws in the constituion was because "Americans don’t support the measure, thus there is no need to pursue it" (refer cross-ref from Forbes - GOP Debate in Michigan Jan 10, 2000, Source: Associated Press June 14, 1999,).

However, on the flip side of his pro-life position, President Bush supported capital punishment, the execution of over 120 'lives' in his state of Texas while he was Govenor.

President Obama has made his personal opinion about abortion public; he does not believe in abortion, however he does not believe his personal views about abortion should violate an indivuals right to free choice. So, why are the views of President Obama's taken to a level that outweighs that of President Bush? They both have left choices... And yet President Bush was allowed to speak at Notre Dame without controversy from either Party."

[disestablishmentarian]

Bravo Mr. O’Donnell for his efforts to hold ever-hypocritical feet to the cleansing fire of logic. The “incorruptible word of god” is cherry-picked daily for political profit.

For those who follow the Bible, the Ten Commandments may be said to be core dogma. Yet who in modern day America follows them other than in a most selective manner? I just had a look at them (thank you, Wikipedia) and everything from number 3 on appear to have vanished from American Life without much fuss. Certainly “Thou shall not kill” is a waster. Pat Buchanan makes a nuanced differentiation between “innocent” and “murderer” that I find notably lacking in the pithy four words of that commandment. But even if you accepted P.B.’s argument, “collateral damage” (as in hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians dead thanks to our efforts in Iraq) passes by daily without a whimper from the Defenders of Innocent Life. And that says nothing about this country’s love affair with guns, violence and the death penalty. A country that self-identifies in large numbers with Jesus Christ – a.k.a the Prince of Peace – seems hypnotically in love with actual and metaphorical war. I realize that is SO much easier than the ways of peace, but Enough, I say!

[ogema]

I wouldn't enter Notre Dame until they removed all the pedophile priests.

[lovenews]

I agree!

I wish we could poll every Notre Dame graduate and verify that each and every one of them support Pro life.

Choose this day whom you will serve - the 'Bible teaches choice.

[horacepoet]

Pat Buchanan is wrong in so many ways about what the church professes, including what the role of the american catholic church is within the larger body politic. First of all Mr. Obama is the President of the United States, not a representative of the Catholic church. Second, Mr. Obama does not take a pro-abortion, but a pro-choice position, a HUGH distinction often missed by his critics. Finally, even from the Catholic tradition, one does not first have to assent to catholic or biblical teaching before he or she is deemed acceptable in the eyes of the christian or even in God's eyes. Jesus did not say to his sinners of the day, "before I accept you, you must change your ways and your thinking." On the contrary, if there is a change or conversion, it comes within a relationship with one's God, not in spite of it. This assenting to principles without acknowledging the spirit behind them, is, in the end, pharisaical.

[jckapla]

O'Donnell needs to read his Catechism.

Unlike abortion, the Catholic Church PERMITS THE DEATH PENALTY under certain circumstances.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#2267

[lovenews]

Who cares? The catholic church does not teach the bible.

[jckapla]

If you watched the video, you'd understand the point. O'Donnell's supposed PWN of Buchanan was all based on his misunderstanding of what the Church teaches.

O'Donnell won a shouting match, but the foundation of his argument is easily proven wrong.

And regarding the Bible, you wouldn't have one if it weren't for the Catholic Church.

[conservicide]

BUckNUt got PWNED

the old man just doesn't understand unbiased debate.

[Wiseup2Day]

O'donnell was like a hysterical woman...which he is.

[conservicide]

such a sound point

NOT

[babyboomerorig]

This was beautiful! It's about time that someone showed the hypocrosy of all this extreme right wing view. No two of us completely agree on any one issue because we all have our own thoughts. However, it's waaaay past time for churches to get out of government and for government to get out of churches.

Let each of us practice our individual religion as we chose without any one of them vilifying another for their beliefs. My belief is that each of us is right some of the time but it doesn't give us the right to tell ANYONE else how to believe.

[Wiseup2Day]

Maybe it's an extreme left view that he should speak..Why doesn't Obama just turn down the invite?
Why is it so important for him to speak at Notre Dame..

[fkg]

Thank you Mr. O'Donnell. I believe Pat, and many conservatives like him, have a problem with the changing of the guard. The core problem with conservatism is, people like Pat B., Dick Chenny, and others that think like them, are upset, because Mr. Obama is an African American, and that is not what the conservative party wants. THIS IS THE CORE ISSUE FOR CONSERVATIVES; The conservative party would like all authority to remain in the hands of rich white men, who would hide behind religion to fool the masses. The same Catholic church believes that lying is a sin, so why does many Conservatives like Pat, Karl Rove, and others continue to cover up lies in the name of patriotism. Pat really needed to be exposed for his HYPOCRISY.
THANKS AGAIN Mr. O'Donnell.

[dudleysharp]

O'Donnell doesn't have a clue:

Pope Benedict XVI (then Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) with guidance to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, stated succinctly, emphatically and unambiguously as follows:

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1125
Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick: More Concerned with 'Comfort' than Christ?, Catholic Online, 7/11/2004

[publanski]

That's not what John Paul II said, WHEN HE WAS POPE.

[conservicide]

the dud, like the rest of the nutbags, will always try to prove a point by grasping at anything, even if it has nothing to do with the original argument.

this is how they can believe in zombies and exorcism, they pick and choose which parts of a religion they want to believe in.

[dudleysharp]

Publanski:

The reality is that Pope John Paul II said that the death penalty was no longer needed to defend society, because prisons are so much better.

First, that is a secular argument, having nothing to do with eternal truths in Church teachings.

Secondly, the Church has four foundation for criminal sanction. Pope John Paul II only used one and it was impropelry applied. He avoided the other three.

Thirdly, his position was one of prudential judgement, meaning that any Catholic in good standing can disagree with the Pope and call for more executions, based upon their own prudential judgement.

Abortion is very different. It is always an intrinsic evil and no Catholic in good standing can support it.

As I said, O'Donnell doesn't have a clue.

[jckapla]

Unlike abortion, the Catholic Church permits the death penalty under certain circumstances.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#2267

That's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which Pope John Paul II himself sanctioned.

Abortion is never permitted by the Church under any circumstance whatsoever.

There is a big difference.

[Tommygun264]

Pat Buchanan is like the racist uncle who you can always count on to get drunk at Thanksgiving dinner and then launch into an ignorant, self-righteous screed so filled with contradictions that you can't help but egg him on while everyone around tries not to laugh directly in his face. On more than one occasion he has expressed the opinion that all our nation's problems would be solved if we could go back to the days when white Christian men ran everything, women and racial minorities knew their place and homosexuals were kept in the closet by guilt and shame. He'd be dangerous if anyone in significant numbers still took him seriously, but now he's just a sad, bitter old man so deluded and consumed by hate that you can't help but pity him.

[Muskered]

Looks to me like Pat isn't going to get away with his outrageous views anymore. Good for you O'Donnell. That SOB should have been taken to the woodshed years ago.

[sector1463]

I can't believe that Pat Buchanan said the Pope was wrong. Exactly how unCatholic is that?

[dudleysharp]

Very few of any Pope's comments are Ex Catherdra, meaning infallible doctrine. see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

Pope John Paul II's teachings on the death penalty were and are, specifically, his own prudential judgement and were in error. In Catholic teachings, there are four foundations for imposing criminal sanctions. In his death penalty teachings, Paul used only three and wrongly interpreted the fourth.

See

http://www.nicenetruth.com/home/2008/11/pope-john-paul-ii-prudential-judgement-the-death-penalty.html

Recently deceased US Cardinal Avery Dulles in one of his final interviews (2006), states that he thought the Church may return to a "more traditional posture" on the death penalty (and just war).

"Recent popes, Dulles conceded, beginning with John XXIIII, seem to have taken quasi-abolitionist positions on both matters. Yet used sparingly and with safeguards to protect the interests of justice, Dulles argued, both the death penalty and war have, over the centuries, been recognized by the church as legitimate, sometimes even obligatory, exercises of state power. The momentum of "internal solidification," he said, may lead to some reconsideration of these social teachings." "An unpublished interview with Avery Dulles", All Things Catholic by John L. Allen, Jr., NCRcafe.org, Posted on Dec 19, 2008, at http://ncrcafe.org/node/2340

Based upon the strength of the Catholic biblical, theological and traditional support for the death penalty as, partially, revealed, below, I think the Church will have to.

O'Donnell realy has no clue.

[Raina12]

I used to be Catholic and am now and Evangelical Christian. I am very Pro-life. I think abortion is wrong but this business of the church getting so involed in politics is wearing thin on me. I can't understand what makes one sin an abomination and another sin easily overlooked. The church is against abortion, divorce, homsexuality, pre-marital sex etc. The catholic church is against all those thing as well as contraception & the death penalty.

A Dem like Clinton commits adultry and it's a moral crusade, a Republican like Gingrich does it at the same time and it's a sin to be forgiven. George Bush enforces the death penalty and that's not a problem, but Obama supports abortion rights and it's time for another crusade. I wish our leaders (the church's) wouldn't insult us and pretend that this is about morality...it's PLAIN POLITICS.

The left screams when Pastor Warren is invited to participate in the inaugrual, the right screams when President Obama is invited to Notre Dame. We won't agree on everything but we can listen to each other and find common ground without demonizing each other. We are better than this.

[conservicide]

I think we can agree that we can all respectively believe whatever we choose to so long as we are not imposing our beliefs on each other.

a fair government should run on a non-religious neutrality

[PlayTOE]

I totally agree, too often religion is about politics.

I gave up belief in deity altogether and it made things like 'sin" much easier to understand

You can't understand what makes one sin an abomination and another sin easily overlooked?
Simple really, where it applies to politics, if your political opponent commits a 'sin' then it is an unforgivable abomination. However, if someone on your side committed a 'sin' then it is easily overlooked and forgiven. (I think you noticed this in action).

In short, religion is a scam and a tool to fool the gullible.

As for why I gave up belief in god? He sends people to be tortured in hell. I realized it would be morally preferable to endure Hell than to spend an eternity worshiping a being that killed his son and guilt tripped people into belief. Both torture and killing your son are immoral ... (fortunately there is no such thing as a god, just as there is no tooth fairy).