Conyers, Sanchez, Paul: Obama Torture Decision Wrong (AUDIO)

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04/17/09 01:32 PM

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Rep. Linda Sanchez (D-Calif.), chair of a judiciary subcommittee that has been investigating Bush Administration misdeeds since Democrats took control of Congress, is disappointed in President Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA officials who tortured detainees, as long as the torture was deemed legal at the time by the White House.

"I still believe that we need to hold people accountable when they break the law and I personally would have liked to have seen some accountability for the actions of people in the last administration," Sanchez said Friday on the Bill Press Show.

"I know it's a difficult line to walk, but I don't think that you become a better democracy or stronger democracy by ignoring these kinds of things," she said.

Listen:

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) also told Press he disagreed with Obama's decision, saying that he was sure a number of Obama supporters would be disappointed with the president. (Perhaps he's been reading the HuffPost comments section.)

"That's endorsing disobedience to the law," he said. "I think some of the people who helped Obama get into office might be a little bit disappointed. And they might be disappointed about Afghanistan and marijuana laws and state secret laws and not prosecuting people."

Listen:

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Paul said such decisions undermine the point of an election. "If it gets fuzzy in any way, a new administration ought to at least investigate and find out -- let us know what really happened. That's the purpose of switching administrations; to clean house and at least let us know what happened. When policies don't change and the potential crimes that were committed aren't even looked into seriously, I think that gives a lot of disenchantment to the people who have wanted some change."

UPDATE: Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.) agrees:

"As Americans digest the awful revelations in the Bush-era OLC opinions, our nation faces a critical choice - what will we do to ensure that abuses like those described in these memos are never again ordered by our leaders or justified by our lawyers? To me, the answer is obvious. We must have a full investigation of the circumstances under which these torture methods were created, approved, and implemented, preferably by an independent commission as I previously proposed. And if our leaders are found to have violated the strict laws against torture, either by ordering these techniques without proper legal authority or by knowingly crafting legal fictions to justify the torture, they should be criminally prosecuted. It is simply obvious that, if there is no accountability when wrongdoing is exposed, future violations will not be deterred.

"I believe a Commission is the best forum to resolve the difficult issues raised by the ever-increasing documentary record of Bush Administration interrogation abuses. To take just one example, today two former Bush Administration officials again took to the papers to justify these practices by claiming that the interrogation of Abu Zubaydeh had been a clear success and had led to the disruption of terrorist plots. Yet just two weeks ago, former Bush Administration officials who monitored this interrogation told reporters that 'not a single significant plot was foiled' as a result. The American people deserve a non-partisan answer to such fundamental questions.

"Finally, I do not understand the statements by the President and the Attorney General yesterday on the issue of potential prosecutions to address the senior officials and government attorneys who crafted and approved these programs. Further, yesterday's statements did not address the legality of any conduct that exceeded even the minimal boundaries established by the OLC memos, or any interrogations that occurred before legal guidance was provided."

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Rep. Linda Sanchez (D-Calif.), chair of a judiciary subcommittee that has been investigating Bush Administration misdeeds since Democrats took control of Congress, is disappointed in President Obama's...
Rep. Linda Sanchez (D-Calif.), chair of a judiciary subcommittee that has been investigating Bush Administration misdeeds since Democrats took control of Congress, is disappointed in President Obama's...
 
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- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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It's politically more expedient for Obama to proceed with prosecutions in his second term providing he gets voted in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 04/17/2009

Interesting point. Obama has so much going on in this term, from fixing a dysfunctional government, to kicking the economy into life, reinstating the forgotten art of diplomacy, keeping us out of war (not to mention the pirate threat and political assaults), and keeping the dog out of the tomato garden.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:01 PM on 04/17/2009
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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Indeed he does.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:03 PM on 04/17/2009
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political expediency does not trump the rule of law

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 04/17/2009
- Ohsherri I'm a Fan of Ohsherri 104 fans permalink
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Obama is not a lone soldier.
Unfortunately he needs to work with hundreds of other leaders who
EVERYBODY elected also.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:17 PM on 04/17/2009
- MaryanneAZ I'm a Fan of MaryanneAZ 117 fans permalink
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Political expediency is also not set by our timetable. Expediency in the law can take years to come to fruition. Anyone who has ever been involved in a legal matter knows this is true. I think the rule of law is quite safe with our President.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:11 PM on 04/18/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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Just as it was politically more expedient for Clinton to put safety nets for welfare reform and expand education and other progressive programs once his budget gave us surpluses in his second term. But then Republicans had other ideas and blocked it all with impeachment.

Just as Al Gore was going to take those surpluses and shore up social security forever, and get us an energy policy not dependent on oil. But then Republicans had other ideas and an extra seat on the Supreme Court, and blocked it all with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

There is no tomorrow, only now, and you can't get to tomorrow until you address what's now, first and foremost, sitting in front of you.

Now is the time for this. Waiting only serves those who want to bury it. Which brings me to you. Who are you that waiting, burying, fits your agenda?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:16 PM on 04/17/2009
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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It's not my agenda, it seems that it's Obamas.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 PM on 04/17/2009
- bazokbros I'm a Fan of bazokbros 14 fans permalink

When will you Republicans stop knee jerk reacting that government sponsored social programs are not irresponsible or set up to punish a capitalistic society? The welfare argument the right uses as part of their platform is always factually incorrect and plays to white fear pure and simple. Janeane Gorofolo got it exactly right a couple nights ago on Countdown IMO that the Tea Bagging stunt was an overt display by the white people in this country who are mad we have a black president.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 PM on 04/17/2009
- MaryanneAZ I'm a Fan of MaryanneAZ 117 fans permalink
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The issue is being addressed, but there's a lot of review, investigation and groundwork to be accomplished before the cases will be brought to the courts. Patience.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 04/18/2009

Couldn't he pass this task off to his Attorney General? He would get credit for the prosecution, but could still focus on the other things plaguing the country. I may be wrong, and having a trial of this magnitude may take focus away from righting the country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 PM on 04/17/2009

I've been thinking that way too, or special prosecutor, or god. This country feels on pretty tippy ground right now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 PM on 04/17/2009
- MaryanneAZ I'm a Fan of MaryanneAZ 117 fans permalink
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Bloggers seem to operate under the assumption that we know everything there is to know on a subject. What I do know is that there are several reviews and investigations going on. We've heard about them from congressional people and the Justice department. We are very simply just impatient. We act like two-year-olds who do not get what we want right now -- pout, cry and throw tantrums. The Executive branch does not investigate and prosecute anyone. It is up to the Legislative and Judicial branches to conduct investigations and, ultimately, prosecute people suspected of breaking the law. Obama is a strategist and a pragmatist and he is going to move when the time is right. And not before. It would undermine our military and CIA significantly if we were to have their members questioning their orders or refusing them altogether for fear of prosecution should an order later be determined to be unlawful. I believe that is the reason for the blanket immunity given to the foot soldiers in this mess. Let's give the process some time and trust our leader. He has given us no reason not to trust him to date.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:01 PM on 04/18/2009
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you nailed it Ron Paul.

I want Obama to have a second term, but this may cost him the next election.

my vote is now in play...and I thought I was drinking the kool aid! LOL :)

This is something I just cannot compromise on!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:36 PM on 04/17/2009
- Ohsherri I'm a Fan of Ohsherri 104 fans permalink
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Obama wants to 'move forward' because there are big s/ns on both sides of the parties.
Repubs already want him to fail,
and the Dems would punish him and create just as much chaos for him if he
got a special prosecutor.
I believe the Dems in Washington would ruin his first 4 years...an­d thus
ruin it for ALL of us!
Please tell me who is going to help Obama and America "win" if Obama
gets a special prosecutor?
I would like it.
But I know those Washington crypt-keepers wouldn't. And they would ALL punish him!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:21 PM on 04/17/2009
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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Obama would be tipping over a lot of apple carts if he goes ahead with prosecutions. I'm sure that's why he's not doing that now. Maybe, if he wins, he can do this in his second term.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 04/17/2009
- Ohsherri I'm a Fan of Ohsherri 104 fans permalink
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HEY! Good point!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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In this clip from yesterday's Rachel Maddow Show, Jonathan Turley explains why Obama is guilty of obstructing justice if he doesn't appoint a special prosecutor or direct the DOJ to prosecute the Bush administration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9Nj0OizCA

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:19 PM on 04/17/2009

Still post the same thing over and over. Can't voice your own opinion?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 04/17/2009

I see many posts from him where he gives opinions about torture and why it is wrong.
Not that there should even be any discussion on such a clear cut topic.

But unfortunately those hateful ignorant Republicans went ahead with torture anyways, so now Obama has to wade in and clean things up.
Most people here support President Obama and want him to do the right thing, but are very disturbed by the fact that he stands opposed.

Those who support covering up the Bush torture crimes, who support doing nothing about them, and harass those who want Obama to act. Well just who are those people??????
Enlighten us with your torture enabling glow, and tell us why you are so busy trying to oppose people for offering an opinion that torture is bad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 04/17/2009
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To put Obama's comments in perspective -

The approach which the administration wants to take regarding prisoner torturing government agents is similar to the approach the Catholic Church wanted to take regarding child molesting Priests - to look forward and not backward.

How well did that work out, eh?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:18 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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Until there are prosecutions and convictions, you can't even say that what happened was a crime. And that leaves the door open for it to be done again by some other administration.

So any deterrent factor you get from knowing that when such-and-such was done in the past, heads rolled, is absent. Any benefit that the repercussions from breaking the law is going to get you convicted and sent to prison is removed and future administrations know then that they can whatever they want with impunity.

There goes the balance of power between the 3 branches of government, too. Executive branch can act with impunity, knowing that both the Congress and future administrations aren't going to hold the previous ones accountable, or challenge their behavior by taking it to the judicial branch for a decision.

That means that we are no longer a functioning democracy. The Constitution has ceased operating.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 04/17/2009
- Kaviraj I'm a Fan of Kaviraj 42 fans permalink
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Thanx to the "Decider", you have now a presidency that differs little from banana-republik dictatorships. Welcome to the all-American club of the same name.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:12 AM on 04/18/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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You can't pre-determine where you cut off the accountability, not that Obama's considering going after anyone. You launch investigations and go where those investigations lead you. Nobody's placed off-limits at the start. A prosecutor may decide to give immunity in exchange for testimony, but you don't begin that way.

If you're talking about Stanley Milgram, that was 50 years ago in a time when nobody knew of Milgram's experiment (duh) or Kitty Genovese. It was also before much discussion and digestion of WWII had taken place, and "just following orders" as a defense. That doesn't cut it in a democracy where we're each responsible for upholding the law. Our democracy depends on oversight and a constant check on power. The problem here is that the CIA knew better.

The CIA knew that what they were being asked to do was illegal. They went to the executive branch and asked for cover. "If you want us to torture, we want a piece of paper from Office of Legal Counsel that explains how it's legal when this sheeit hits the fan, as it most certainly will."

Torture is illegal in the US. We prosecute people for mistreating animals in this country, not only people. But, incredibly, due to pathologically disturbed people who have been running our government, we're splitting hairs as to what constitutes "torture" when anyone with half a brain knows that it was all licensed sadism, counterproductive to the interests of the US and its citizens.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 04/17/2009
- AddyGmom I'm a Fan of AddyGmom 59 fans permalink
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I want public retribution. I want to see dubya , dick, rummy, feith, addington, hayne, bybee, yoo, fredo, wolfowitz, made to do the perp walk. I need to see this because the wounds they have inflicted will not heal until the infection is exposed and excised.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:02 PM on 04/17/2009
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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It's going to be a long wait for you then.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:48 PM on 04/17/2009
- Kaviraj I'm a Fan of Kaviraj 42 fans permalink
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Exactly. Because you all forget that NATO was involved in all of it - Afghanistan the prime example. So if Bushco is prosecuted, half the NATO heads of state should be prosecuted too. Where then is the rebuilding of the World Coalition? It jeopardises the NWO, the credibility of many world leaders and the recovery of the economy. It could cause countless revolutions all over the place. Obama is however too cautious.
I bet that when Obama went to Berlin on the campaign, he was told to not prosecute by the EU leadership, because it would indict them too for a larger part. He has his hands tied and you will never see a "commission" finding out things. maybe in 50 years time, you get a glimps of what really happened. No more than a glimpse, though.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:19 AM on 04/18/2009
- Ohsherri I'm a Fan of Ohsherri 104 fans permalink
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I'll bet you any money that most of those Democrat Leaders in Washington
are so against Obama moving forward with a special prosecutor­...
(To save their own butts)
And would make his first 4 years a nightmare.­..they would punish him...
and thus punish us.

I love Obama, but I don't trust those Washington Crypt Keepers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 PM on 04/17/2009
- suekzoo I'm a Fan of suekzoo 3 fans permalink

Obama has left the door wide open to prosecute the memo writers, as well as Cheney and Bush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:38 PM on 04/17/2009
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Uhhh...ok, you just keep hoping for that!

We are a nation of laws no more!

These torturers could have made themselves whistleblowers, or heck, just up and quit! This inhumane treatment just attempts to force people to repeat what you want them to say. It is illegal and needs to be addressed and put on the top of the HP page! It's just that important!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:50 PM on 04/17/2009

suekzoo is 100% correct, actually; you should probably delve a little more deeply into this issue before you disdain him/her like you did.

Obama has offered immunity to those who acted in good faith. That means that the door is open for prosecuting those who acted in bad faith, and those who were the architects of this mess.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:07 PM on 04/17/2009

Obama wants to move forward not backwards. And accept the promotion of good people like Bibe to judgeships.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:51 PM on 04/17/2009

The way I read the original story, I think he's going after the Justice Department, possibly Bush and Cheney.

See the link mentioned at the top of this story: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/obama-admin-no-charges-ag_n_187837.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 04/17/2009
- Querent I'm a Fan of Querent 62 fans permalink
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President Obama is using the Nazi defense, "I was only following orders." This is deeply disturbing. The President has no actual right to order the Attorney General not to prosecute crimes committed by government officials. If I had know the President was going to take this step, I would not have voted for him in the primary. He has reduced himself in my eyes by this action to just another one of the evils we all have to try to choose the lesser of in elections. I will not condone torture. I don't think I could bring myself to vote for him again, if the 2012 election was being held today. He has betrayed his own and the nation's principles.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:36 PM on 04/17/2009
- mat3 I'm a Fan of mat3 9 fans permalink

Get in line pal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 04/17/2009
- Kaviraj I'm a Fan of Kaviraj 42 fans permalink
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And you get lost

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:25 AM on 04/18/2009
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By placing himself as an obstacle to justice for criminals Obama has made himself part of the problem.

Ordinary poeple like you and me will certainly continue to be investigated and proscecuted for crimes by Obama's DOJ.

It's just the prosecution of specially connected and priviledged people that Obama does not want to pursue - either in Washington or on Wall Street.

Too bad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 04/17/2009
- mat3 I'm a Fan of mat3 9 fans permalink

Since everyone else is throwing out speculation of why President Obama doesn't want it to go any further, here are my two:

1) Prosecute for waterboarding, details emerge about was intel was gained and how many lives were saved. People start to think, hey maybe this waterboarding thing was worth it, let's do it some more. Whole point of prosecuting is defeated.

2) Prominent Democrats knew about what was happening, perhaps even were okay with it. Something would have to be done with them.

Again, just speculation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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1) We already know from every source in a position to know that no useful intelligence was gained. Only Cheney says that meaningful intelligence was gleaned, but then again Cheney still insists that Saddam Hussein had WMD.

Even if it works, which every (and I mean every) expert in this field says doesn't, it's against the law. International and domestic law. If it works then change the law. There would be absolutely no reason not to change the law if that was the case. Not changing the law then, but doing it anyway makes us a nation of rogue criminals, a nation of lies and liars. Is that what we stand for? How does that work at all for us?

2) Democrats knowing isn't the problem. Knowing doesn't put them in a criminal position.

But let's say that it does put them in a criminal position. What do you think about that? Are you okay with letting that go?

Where are you in this democracy? You're not a subject of the realm; you're one of the bosses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 04/17/2009

The first paragraph of this story reads Obama decided "...not to prosecute CIA officials who tortured detainees, as long as the torture was deemed legal at the time by the White House."

I'm not rushing to judgment here. This statement leaves out all the others who are eligible to prosecute (Bush, Cheney, Attorney General, etc., etc.), as well as the other prosecutors available to go after them (Congress, Special Prosecutor, etc.). And note that it was the White House who deemed the torture legal.

I vote we practice a little patience. We've not heard the last of this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 04/17/2009
- suekzoo I'm a Fan of suekzoo 3 fans permalink

You are absolutely correct, 100%!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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You don't wait for the other shoe to drop, when it would be a fait accompli to complain.

Obama has made it very clear that he plans "to not look backward, but move forward".

This is reminiscent of Clinton's deal with Bush 41 on Iran-Contra.

Obama has backtracked on many pledges. Obama has also sought to expand on Bush's abuses of executive power, with the excuse that Obama will use it for good, as opposed to Bush and Republicans who used it for bad, but ignoring the fact that others will be in the office one day with that expanded power who may not have good intentions.

That was for the benefit of those who think Obama is above reproach. I don't happen to think that he is, and it's also not how the US government is supposed to work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:47 PM on 04/17/2009
- AddyGmom I'm a Fan of AddyGmom 59 fans permalink
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I do hope you're right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 04/17/2009

I'm glad to see someone else taking a wait and see attitude on this because there is so much more to be learn, IMO. I didn't like it when the lower ranking soldiers were punished over the Iraq prisoners situation and Rumsey (sp) got away from facing any kind of charges.

I want the President to have all the evidence in front of him before he makes a decision. Knee jerk decisions is what got us to this place in the frist place!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:22 PM on 04/17/2009

Well, AddyG, I hope I'm right too. I want to see the people who planned and o.ked this punished, and in my lifetime too. Maybe Rumsey isn't off the hook all together either. I'm still disgusted about the way Iran-Contra played out, but that's long gone.

The President has about 100,000 balls in the air at once. I just trust that he will go the legal and moral way on this. I don't want, any longer, to participate in knee jerk reactions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 04/17/2009

Obama decided "...not to prosecute CIA officials who tortured"

He is the President. He needs to stand up right now and take a strong stand against torture.

If you were being waterboarded this minute, would you be willing to take a "wait & see" attitude?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:07 PM on 04/18/2009
- mat3 I'm a Fan of mat3 9 fans permalink

Does anybody else find it ironic that waterboarding is not tolerable but abortion is okay?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:19 PM on 04/17/2009
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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especially partial birth abortion. Isn't that where they drill into the fetus skull as it is traveling through the birthing canal?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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What about you? Do you find the death penalty tolerable?

But this isn't the forum for distractions into a basic right that should be a no-brainer for all sentient beings: The state has no place in an individual's reproductive decisions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 04/17/2009
- Beninn I'm a Fan of Beninn 33 fans permalink
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Do you find the death penalty tolerable?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 04/17/2009

or that abortion is not o.k. but waterboarding is tolerable?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 04/17/2009
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The approach which the administration wants to take regarding prisoner torturing government agents is similar to the approach the Catholic Church wanted to take regarding child molesting Priests - to look forward and not backward. How well did that work out?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:37 PM on 04/17/2009
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Most people are reluctant to prosecute and imprison the mothers who authorize and get abortions of their fetuses.

I don't think that "pro-choice" people all believe that "abortion is okay."

I don't think that "pro-life" people all believe that "murder is wrong."

It's complicated, eh?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 04/17/2009
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