New York Times Accepts Premise That Torture Memos Reveal Too Much, Despite Their Own News Reports

04/20/09 05:26 PM

I Like ItI Don’t Like It
Waterboarding

One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques again, because now, Al Qaeda knows about them. The idea, I suppose, is that somehow, the "terrorists" have missed all the previous discussions, hearings, articles, reports, campaign promises to end the practice, legislation, opinion pieces, popular entertainments that featured torture, and that now, the release of these memos will finally -- FINALLY -- demystify the fact.

And now, the New York Times is playing along with this weird notion, pretending that the matter of torture being an open secret is an unsettled debate. One of those "depends on who you talk to" things:

Democrats on Sunday played down the importance of the release of the documents, saying that most of the information was already public.

That comes after a litany of critics express their disapproval of tipping off the terrorists. The only counter to these claims is presented as above, as a Democratic party claim. Another way of countering it, of course, is to say that these critics are factually wrong, and as Greg Sargent notes today, it's not like the New York Times has to go on a scavenger hunt for evidence.

So now Democrats are "saying" that much of the info was already public. But again, it is an indisputable fact that most of the info about the torture techniques has already been made public in a leaked Red Cross report and in other places.


As it happens, this info can be found in the paper's own archives. The Times published an article earlier this month detailing the revelations in the Red Cross report -- and even linked to the report itself!

But, you know, just in case the New York Times has entered some new era in which they cannot believe that they have actually been reporting news, all this while, we could also take the word of an actual interrogator. Here's Matthew Alexander, explaining to the Washington Post that terrorists are pretty much aware of our torture regime:

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

So, let's stop pretending that this was some sort of well-kept secret.

[Would you like to follow me on Twitter? Because why not? Also, please send tips to tv@huffingtonpost.com -- learn more about our media monitoring project here.]

One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques aga...
One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques aga...
Loading...
 
 
Comments
117
Pending Comments
0
iPhone App Promo

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:
Page: 1 2 3 Next › Last » (3 pages total)
photo

I heard a story on Fox News; they have news in their name so that you will know it is news, kind of like Rush Limbaugh has to keep saying excellence in broadcasting over and over so you will be convinced, criticizing the president for the torture memos to the news as if it was some big secret. I think Fox missed the point that since torture is a worthless information gathering technique, what does it matter? But even more important, what ever happened to having our own standards? I am referring to the standards of a decent and civilized people that had served us very well, at least up until the last 8 years. Is Dick Cheney’s code of conduct determined by terrorist organizations? Did not his parents never tell him that it does not matter who did it first? As a leader shouldn’t he know that conduct should be determined from the top down and not the bottom up? To put it a different way the war on terrorism will never be won by behaving like terrorists.

I think it is time to say “yes we did it and it was wrong”

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 04/20/2009
- HC4BO I'm a Fan of HC4BO 37 fans permalink
photo

NYT ? face-palm ....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 04/20/2009

After WWII 6 Japanese military personnel were executed for WATERBOARDING Allied prisoners. Is President Obama saying ALL Nazi & Japanese war criminals should be exonorated because they were only following orders???? Eichmann, Mengale, Borman & Lt. Calley all must be breathing a sigh of relief (somewhere). So Obama is saying the 6 million + Jewish murders in the camps are OK because those murderers were only following orders...R­IGHT? Re-read the Constitution, Mr. President, & do the job you swore to do tin upholding it. TOO TOO many have fought & died for it for you to start making a mockery of it like Bush & his ilk did.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 04/20/2009
- LarBear I'm a Fan of LarBear 30 fans permalink
photo

Yes... WE do need to Impeach and remove from office a Feral Judge ( oops, did I misspell Federal Judge)...

To President Obama and Congress:
I am a Citizen by Birth, but an American by choice and belief... Mr President, ET ALL... WE Americans are willing to die for our Nation (OUR choice and beliefs)..­. That's why we join the Military, Etc... If you are not strong enough, and Love our Nation strong enough, to allow People to die for our beliefs and Nation, then please resign from Office...

If we spy without Warrants, torture, violate the Constitution, Etc. then WE lose our Nation that WE do so Love... Yes, you must allow citizens to die rather than sacrifice our Love and Beliefs in our Nation, the USA... Even if in a 24 type scenario, torture would supposedly save lives, Loving and believing in our Nation and Constitution and respect of Law is what makes us more than citizens..­. Makes us Citizens and Americans.­..

WE just had a President (G W Bush ) who behaved like a frightened child... OUR whole Administration was made up of frightened children in Men's bodies... Fearfully, they wanted to take Control of the World... Right Wing Religionists and Politician's lived like frightened children, controlled by their Fears... They still do!

WE can either be controlled by Mind's Fear taught/ learned/ based reactions, or WE can take time to remind Mind to respond instead, with Love and Light...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:53 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

good post ... your comparison to GW and the gop to frightened child is right on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:10 PM on 04/20/2009
- yert33 I'm a Fan of yert33 2 fans permalink
photo

excellent

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:40 PM on 04/21/2009
- blood1 I'm a Fan of blood1 12 fans permalink

What did the NYT expect...u­s NOT TO READ THEM...and now that we have...are they saying we the American People should not WANT or BE ABLE to understand what the memos said.

Somehow, they forget that the country will be better ( and maybe more alert) when we are allowed to know what is really going on.

Maybe the NYT is embarrassed because they were some of the cheerleaders of the Bush Administrations BS about going to war in Iraq.

They are complaining a bit too much....an­d the real reason why is????????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:03 PM on 04/20/2009
- UWSDave24 I'm a Fan of UWSDave24 3 fans permalink

The New York Times is trying to make itself more attractive to its prospective buyer, Rupert Murdoch. The paper already has published a front-page lovefest to Glenn Beck, followed the very next day by a similar swooning piece about the hapless John Rich and his song "Shuttin' Down Detroit," which conveniently ignores how management at the auto companies drove the industry into the ground and effectively is "shuttin' it down." Rupert can't come to the beleaguered daily's rescue too soon, it seems.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 04/20/2009

Yeah, but we have to keep in mind that the GOP folks who are saying our security is hurt by acknowledging facts, are also the same GOP folks who tell rape victims that they shouldn't have looked so alluring. Heck, they would probably tell the dinosaurs that they were responsible for their own extinction (if they believed that dinosaurs actually existed and weren't just bones put in the ground by god to fool the scientists).
I've said it before... and this is for those who call themselves journalist­s... just because some crazy republicans say it, doesn't mean you have to report / print it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 PM on 04/20/2009
- 4Q-N4Q2 I'm a Fan of 4Q-N4Q2 7 fans permalink

The report says that khalid$hei­khmohammed was wat er boar ded 183 times. That's only 16 times per victim of the 9/11 attack. No pity for him from this observer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 04/20/2009
- RTIII I'm a Fan of RTIII 87 fans permalink

Was he tried? Convicted? Sentenced?

How is THIS the American Way? 'Cause YOU said so?
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 PM on 04/20/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
photo

It's not about pity for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. If you believe in hell, then take comfort in the belief that he will suffer eternal pain. But KSM is not the point here. The point here is about US, who we are as people. Are we on the same level as those who attacked us, or are we better than that? Do we simply torture people who hurt us, just for the emotional catharsis? Do we abandon our laws and principles when things become too upsetting?

It's an open question right now. And that breaks my heart.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:11 PM on 04/20/2009
- nk007 I'm a Fan of nk007 29 fans permalink

It is not about pitying Khalid Shikh Mohammed; rather, it is about pitying our country for allowing our government to behave exactly the like KSM , Bin Laden and all those who have absolutely no respect for law and human dignity. Obviously you are only interested in revenge, but guess what: your willingness to act exactly the same way as the terrorist precludes from taking a higher moral ground when they persecute our people. So, next time they capture and torture an American soldier, please spare us your moral indignation about how uncivilized they are. I say this because I remember how angry Pres. Bush, PM Blair and Rumsfeld were when they lambasted Iraqi violations of the Geneva conventions about the treatment of prisoners of war. They kept mouthing off about civilized behavior. I guess what they meant is that if you must torture at least do it with the assistance of a medical doctor and a psychologist. In other words there is a difference between civilized torture and uncivilized torture: the presence of doctors to prevent things going completely out of hand and resulting in death or organ failure. AMAZING how painless civilized torture is!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:47 AM on 04/21/2009
photo

"I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. "

Really? Do you actually BELIEVE what terrorists tell you? Do you not know they are TAUGHT lies to spout when they care captured?

"I've been tortured!"
"They burned my Koran!"
"They tied a banana to my cat's tail and chased it with a broom!"

Really, folks...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 PM on 04/20/2009
- jazabelz I'm a Fan of jazabelz 19 fans permalink

So Babblin -- if you say "why actually believe what terrorists tell you?" -- why would you believe anything they tell you as a result of torture? seems to me people say anything to avoid torture so your conclusion makes absolutely no sense!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 04/20/2009

You don't have to believe what terrorists tell you. A few years ago U.S. forces found a house in western Iraq that had served as a way stattion of foreign recruits entering Iraq. Those recruits were interviewed by AQ about why they wanted to fight and those records were seized by the U.S.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Since they are taught lies to spout when captured, whats the point of torture then?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:03 PM on 04/20/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
photo

Apparently, the point of torture is to get our collective revenge rocks off.

At least, if you listen to the torture justifiers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 PM on 04/20/2009
- atexasdem I'm a Fan of atexasdem 15 fans permalink

The point of not revealing torture because it is a secret is probably true. Only problem with that is that it's not a secret to the "enemy" rather to keep it a secret from the public and the world. To actually believe that Al Quida or other "enemies" didn't know what was happening is unrealistic. With that much going on it's impossible to keep secrets and you know there were sympathisers in the foreign "secret" prisons. It didn't take long at all for word to get back as to what to expect if captured by the US. The "secret" just had to be maintained against the American public which may act with outrage if the word got out.
Like Abu Garib (SP) there are always a few who when they see wrong can not tolerate it. It only takes one person with a sense of "this is wrong" to let the cat out of the bag. This is called "morals".
Whether it's the accountant who sees fraud by his employer and who's concience forces him to report it or the soldier who reports misdeeds by his peers and reports it, It's all the same. It's far easier to just "go along" especialy when the misdeeds are being encouraged from above. Having the morals to report misdeeds is an act of courage.
Nobody likes a "snitch" or so they all claim.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

That is at least a semi-reasonable position.

However, I find that keeping the enemy guessing is a good idea. In war, there is the need to, on occasion, keep our public in the dark, too. Would it have been reasonable to publish our D-day battle plans in US newspapers prior to the Normandy Invasion?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Then the release of the torture documents is a good thing for the Repubs since now they will have to come up with more inventive ways to t.orture people. Keep that axis of e.vil guessing!

It would not have been reasonable to release the d-day plans before the i.nvasion, but I don't understand your point as it relates to the release of the bush to.rture documents since the to.rture occured first, was reasonably stopped, and only then were the documents released.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:20 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Having pointed out here a couple days ago that we teach, through application, resistance to waterboarding and other coercive measures in our Search-Eva­sion-Resis­tance-Esca­pe, SERE, training at our military academies and elsewhere, I am pleased to note that an article in the WSJ also points this out today. If it is safe enough to use on our young men and women in our service academies, it is safe enough to use on terrorists!!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Survival-E­vasion-Res­istance-Es­cape! Sorry, I had a mental glitch.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Try jogging miles into the wilderness around the Air Force Academy carrying a small but heavy boulder...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 PM on 04/20/2009
- obamagal I'm a Fan of obamagal 50 fans permalink
photo

Wall Street Journal? Why am I not surprised. You should broaden your horizons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Hey, I'm reading HuffPost!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 PM on 04/20/2009

A terrahrist doesn't know what the intentions of the torturer are, whether to kill, or just terrify. Panic can lead to cariac arrest and ultimately death. Our service people know that they will not be harmed going into the training.

your ignorance is hurting my eyes please stop.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Do you have any such examples? Or just spouting blather?

Your reflexive insults are noted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

You support torture because its "safe"?

You really think that what we (the US) has done is the worst that torture can be? It's not intended to be safe; you completely ignore the fact that if our nation tortures in any fashion, we can't complain if, in the next incident, some country tortures our POWs. And if our POWs give information under torture, does that mean that they weren't trained well enough in resisting, or that we didn't torture severely enough?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

No, I support waterboarding because it has proved capable of gaining useful information from the hardest terrorists.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

By the way, I think our soldiers would prefer waterboarding to having hands and feet cut off and beheading and being hooked up to electric generators, etc.

Do you not note that the terrorists DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR RULES and THEY WOULDN"T FOLLOW YOUR RULES EVEN IF WE DID?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 04/20/2009
- Kiku I'm a Fan of Kiku 50 fans permalink

Thanks for the links, especially to Matthew Alexander's article. I've shared it with lots of people.

We need lots more of this kind of article, that show us why torture doesn't work, and that there are better methods.

The problem I have is that, if someone knows where and when a terrorist even is going to occur, I feel that we should do what we need to do to get that information. And that opens the can to torture.

I love reading that there are better, more effective ways, based on human compassion, which I think is the stronger emotion in the long run.

Please post more of this information.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:36 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

But gee, those "better ways" don't always work! So then what?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 04/20/2009

Go back to school friend grow up learn some things you are out of your depth here.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:29 AM on 04/21/2009
- HST I'm a Fan of HST 50 fans permalink
photo

I can see how newspapers might be against releasing "too much information", it might increase readership.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

The NY Times: It's two two two newspapers in one! It is an unrelentingly partisan hack rag but it has occasional flashes of sense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

When I hear complaints of releasing the memos and Obama's desire to move forward instead of prosecuting the criminals, it becomes clear that "they" wish to torture in the future. Right now, Obama is part of or is beholden to "they" I mention.

OBUSHMA War Crimes Conspirator After the Fact, Obstructor of Justice, POTUS, and BANKSTER's BFF.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

no, you're wrong.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:19 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

That's illuminating! Of something.­..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 04/20/2009
photo

Maybe THEY wish to protect the country in the future...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:28 PM on 04/20/2009
Page: 1 2 3 Next › Last » (3 pages total)
Comments are closed for this entry

 You must be logged in to comment. Log in  or connect with 

Connect