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New York Times Accepts Premise That Torture Memos Reveal Too Much, Despite Their Own News Reports

First Posted: 05/21/09 06:12 AM ET Updated: 05/25/11 02:15 PM ET

Waterboarding

One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques again, because now, Al Qaeda knows about them. The idea, I suppose, is that somehow, the "terrorists" have missed all the previous discussions, hearings, articles, reports, campaign promises to end the practice, legislation, opinion pieces, popular entertainments that featured torture, and that now, the release of these memos will finally -- FINALLY -- demystify the fact.

And now, the New York Times is playing along with this weird notion, pretending that the matter of torture being an open secret is an unsettled debate. One of those "depends on who you talk to" things:

Democrats on Sunday played down the importance of the release of the documents, saying that most of the information was already public.

That comes after a litany of critics express their disapproval of tipping off the terrorists. The only counter to these claims is presented as above, as a Democratic party claim. Another way of countering it, of course, is to say that these critics are factually wrong, and as Greg Sargent notes today, it's not like the New York Times has to go on a scavenger hunt for evidence.

So now Democrats are "saying" that much of the info was already public. But again, it is an indisputable fact that most of the info about the torture techniques has already been made public in a leaked Red Cross report and in other places.


As it happens, this info can be found in the paper's own archives. The Times published an article earlier this month detailing the revelations in the Red Cross report -- and even linked to the report itself!

But, you know, just in case the New York Times has entered some new era in which they cannot believe that they have actually been reporting news, all this while, we could also take the word of an actual interrogator. Here's Matthew Alexander, explaining to the Washington Post that terrorists are pretty much aware of our torture regime:

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

So, let's stop pretending that this was some sort of well-kept secret.

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One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques aga...
One of the key lines of so-called "reasoning" among those who have objected to the release of the torture memos is that now that we've let the cat out of the bag, we can never use those techniques aga...
 
 
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07:33 PM on 04/20/2009
I heard a story on Fox News; they have news in their name so that you will know it is news, kind of like Rush Limbaugh has to keep saying excellence in broadcasting over and over so you will be convinced, criticizing the president for the torture memos to the news as if it was some big secret. I think Fox missed the point that since torture is a worthless information gathering technique, what does it matter? But even more important, what ever happened to having our own standards? I am referring to the standards of a decent and civilized people that had served us very well, at least up until the last 8 years. Is Dick Cheney’s code of conduct determined by terrorist organizations? Did not his parents never tell him that it does not matter who did it first? As a leader shouldn’t he know that conduct should be determined from the top down and not the bottom up? To put it a different way the war on terrorism will never be won by behaving like terrorists.

I think it is time to say “yes we did it and it was wrong”
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HC4BO
Far-Left Socialist
05:22 PM on 04/20/2009
NYT ? face-palm ....
04:36 PM on 04/20/2009
After WWII 6 Japanese military personnel were executed for WATERBOARDING Allied prisoners. Is President Obama saying ALL Nazi & Japanese war criminals should be exonorated because they were only following orders???? Eichmann, Mengale, Borman & Lt. Calley all must be breathing a sigh of relief (somewhere). So Obama is saying the 6 million + Jewish murders in the camps are OK because those murderers were only following orders...RIGHT? Re-read the Constitution, Mr. President, & do the job you swore to do tin upholding it. TOO TOO many have fought & died for it for you to start making a mockery of it like Bush & his ilk did.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LarBear
03:53 PM on 04/20/2009
Yes... WE do need to Impeach and remove from office a Feral Judge ( oops, did I misspell Federal Judge)...

To President Obama and Congress:
I am a Citizen by Birth, but an American by choice and belief... Mr President, ET ALL... WE Americans are willing to die for our Nation (OUR choice and beliefs)... That's why we join the Military, Etc... If you are not strong enough, and Love our Nation strong enough, to allow People to die for our beliefs and Nation, then please resign from Office...

If we spy without Warrants, torture, violate the Constitution, Etc. then WE lose our Nation that WE do so Love... Yes, you must allow citizens to die rather than sacrifice our Love and Beliefs in our Nation, the USA... Even if in a 24 type scenario, torture would supposedly save lives, Loving and believing in our Nation and Constitution and respect of Law is what makes us more than citizens... Makes us Citizens and Americans...

WE just had a President (G W Bush ) who behaved like a frightened child... OUR whole Administration was made up of frightened children in Men's bodies... Fearfully, they wanted to take Control of the World... Right Wing Religionists and Politician's lived like frightened children, controlled by their Fears... They still do!

WE can either be controlled by Mind's Fear taught/ learned/ based reactions, or WE can take time to remind Mind to respond instead, with Love and Light...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ArticleFriendly
The GOP. Our bridge to the 11th century
05:10 PM on 04/20/2009
good post ... your comparison to GW and the gop to frightened child is right on.
03:40 PM on 04/21/2009
excellent
03:03 PM on 04/20/2009
What did the NYT expect...us NOT TO READ THEM...and now that we have...are they saying we the American People should not WANT or BE ABLE to understand what the memos said.

Somehow, they forget that the country will be better ( and maybe more alert) when we are allowed to know what is really going on.

Maybe the NYT is embarrassed because they were some of the cheerleaders of the Bush Administrations BS about going to war in Iraq.

They are complaining a bit too much....and the real reason why is????????
02:53 PM on 04/20/2009
The New York Times is trying to make itself more attractive to its prospective buyer, Rupert Murdoch. The paper already has published a front-page lovefest to Glenn Beck, followed the very next day by a similar swooning piece about the hapless John Rich and his song "Shuttin' Down Detroit," which conveniently ignores how management at the auto companies drove the industry into the ground and effectively is "shuttin' it down." Rupert can't come to the beleaguered daily's rescue too soon, it seems.
02:44 PM on 04/20/2009
Yeah, but we have to keep in mind that the GOP folks who are saying our security is hurt by acknowledging facts, are also the same GOP folks who tell rape victims that they shouldn't have looked so alluring. Heck, they would probably tell the dinosaurs that they were responsible for their own extinction (if they believed that dinosaurs actually existed and weren't just bones put in the ground by god to fool the scientists).
I've said it before... and this is for those who call themselves journalists... just because some crazy republicans say it, doesn't mean you have to report / print it.
02:17 PM on 04/20/2009
The report says that khalid$heikhmohammed was wat er boar ded 183 times. That's only 16 times per victim of the 9/11 attack. No pity for him from this observer.
RTIII
Poster of over 0.0135% of all HufPost comments
06:34 PM on 04/20/2009
Was he tried? Convicted? Sentenced?

How is THIS the American Way? 'Cause YOU said so?
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08:11 PM on 04/20/2009
It's not about pity for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. If you believe in hell, then take comfort in the belief that he will suffer eternal pain. But KSM is not the point here. The point here is about US, who we are as people. Are we on the same level as those who attacked us, or are we better than that? Do we simply torture people who hurt us, just for the emotional catharsis? Do we abandon our laws and principles when things become too upsetting?

It's an open question right now. And that breaks my heart.
01:46 PM on 04/20/2009
"I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. "

Really? Do you actually BELIEVE what terrorists tell you? Do you not know they are TAUGHT lies to spout when they care captured?

"I've been tortured!"
"They burned my Koran!"
"They tied a banana to my cat's tail and chased it with a broom!"

Really, folks...
02:17 PM on 04/20/2009
So Babblin -- if you say "why actually believe what terrorists tell you?" -- why would you believe anything they tell you as a result of torture? seems to me people say anything to avoid torture so your conclusion makes absolutely no sense!
02:59 PM on 04/20/2009
You don't have to believe what terrorists tell you. A few years ago U.S. forces found a house in western Iraq that had served as a way stattion of foreign recruits entering Iraq. Those recruits were interviewed by AQ about why they wanted to fight and those records were seized by the U.S.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
atexasdem
Pointing out the foolishness of republican voters.
01:43 PM on 04/20/2009
The point of not revealing torture because it is a secret is probably true. Only problem with that is that it's not a secret to the "enemy" rather to keep it a secret from the public and the world. To actually believe that Al Quida or other "enemies" didn't know what was happening is unrealistic. With that much going on it's impossible to keep secrets and you know there were sympathisers in the foreign "secret" prisons. It didn't take long at all for word to get back as to what to expect if captured by the US. The "secret" just had to be maintained against the American public which may act with outrage if the word got out.
Like Abu Garib (SP) there are always a few who when they see wrong can not tolerate it. It only takes one person with a sense of "this is wrong" to let the cat out of the bag. This is called "morals".
Whether it's the accountant who sees fraud by his employer and who's concience forces him to report it or the soldier who reports misdeeds by his peers and reports it, It's all the same. It's far easier to just "go along" especialy when the misdeeds are being encouraged from above. Having the morals to report misdeeds is an act of courage.
Nobody likes a "snitch" or so they all claim.
01:54 PM on 04/20/2009
That is at least a semi-reasonable position.

However, I find that keeping the enemy guessing is a good idea. In war, there is the need to, on occasion, keep our public in the dark, too. Would it have been reasonable to publish our D-day battle plans in US newspapers prior to the Normandy Invasion?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ArticleFriendly
The GOP. Our bridge to the 11th century
05:20 PM on 04/20/2009
Then the release of the torture documents is a good thing for the Repubs since now they will have to come up with more inventive ways to t.orture people. Keep that axis of e.vil guessing!

It would not have been reasonable to release the d-day plans before the i.nvasion, but I don't understand your point as it relates to the release of the bush to.rture documents since the to.rture occured first, was reasonably stopped, and only then were the documents released.
01:38 PM on 04/20/2009
Having pointed out here a couple days ago that we teach, through application, resistance to waterboarding and other coercive measures in our Search-Evasion-Resistance-Escape, SERE, training at our military academies and elsewhere, I am pleased to note that an article in the WSJ also points this out today. If it is safe enough to use on our young men and women in our service academies, it is safe enough to use on terrorists!!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html
01:40 PM on 04/20/2009
Survival-Evasion-Resistance-Escape! Sorry, I had a mental glitch.
01:42 PM on 04/20/2009
Try jogging miles into the wilderness around the Air Force Academy carrying a small but heavy boulder...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Kiku
01:36 PM on 04/20/2009
Thanks for the links, especially to Matthew Alexander's article. I've shared it with lots of people.

We need lots more of this kind of article, that show us why torture doesn't work, and that there are better methods.

The problem I have is that, if someone knows where and when a terrorist even is going to occur, I feel that we should do what we need to do to get that information. And that opens the can to torture.

I love reading that there are better, more effective ways, based on human compassion, which I think is the stronger emotion in the long run.

Please post more of this information.
01:55 PM on 04/20/2009
But gee, those "better ways" don't always work! So then what?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ramblin jack
07:29 AM on 04/21/2009
Go back to school friend grow up learn some things you are out of your depth here.
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HST
Conservatism = selfishness
01:31 PM on 04/20/2009
I can see how newspapers might be against releasing "too much information", it might increase readership.
01:27 PM on 04/20/2009
The NY Times: It's two two two newspapers in one! It is an unrelentingly partisan hack rag but it has occasional flashes of sense.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
ManwithaParachute
Not Seeking Your Approval
01:15 PM on 04/20/2009
When I hear complaints of releasing the memos and Obama's desire to move forward instead of prosecuting the criminals, it becomes clear that "they" wish to torture in the future. Right now, Obama is part of or is beholden to "they" I mention.

OBUSHMA War Crimes Conspirator After the Fact, Obstructor of Justice, POTUS, and BANKSTER's BFF.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
justoverit333
make art not war
01:19 PM on 04/20/2009
no, you're wrong.
01:40 PM on 04/20/2009
That's illuminating! Of something...
01:28 PM on 04/20/2009
Maybe THEY wish to protect the country in the future...