Lawmakers: Congress Will Investigate Torture, Bipartisan Support In Place

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04/23/09 10:55 AM

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The central debate dominating discussions of a possible investigation into torture by the Bush administration seems to have shifted sharply in the past few days: from whether such an investigation should take place, to now what form it will have when it comes.

If investigations actually do go forward, there seem to be three clear options: creating an independent commission, launching a congressional probe, or having the Department of Justice tackle the topic, likely by appointing a special prosecutor.

Each form has its champions, its benefits and shortcomings. Of the three, the Obama White House -- which still prefers no investigation at all -- is the least enthusiastic about Congress handling the matter. The president has said that if an investigation were to happen, he wanted it done in an independent and non-partisan matter by people above reproach -- qualities sometimes tough to come by in Congress.

That said, on Thursday morning, Sen. Claire McCaskill told MSNBC that she was "sure there will be some form of investigation in Congress." She said she could not make the same value judgments about the other two forms of investigation.

Meanwhile, one of the few legislative vehicles actually geared toward starting the torture investigation process already has bipartisan support. Legislation backed by House Judiciary chairman John Conyers to establish "a national commission on presidential war powers and civil liberties" has one rather notable co-sponsor: Republican Rep. Walter Jones, a vocal GOP critic of the Bush administration. Jones' office did not return requests for comment but Conyers' office confirmed the North Carolinian remains a co-sponsor of the legislation.

The chairman himself said he views Obama's remarks on the suitable way to investigate torture to be something of an endorsement of his proposal.

"The President's comments today on possible approaches to a fuller accounting of these matters are exactly right," remarked Conyers in a statement. "Having introduced legislation to establish just such a non-partisan truth-telling Commission on the very first day of this Congress, that is the approach I have long favored."

The same cannot be said, at this juncture, of the other congressional proposal for investigations. Senate Judiciary chairman Patrick Leahy's truth and reconciliation commission is not, at this point, formal law and its support is primarily from figures outside government.

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As for Democratic leadership in Congress, Sen. Harry Reid's office confirmed to the Huffington Post on Thursday that the Majority Leader is withholding judgment until the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence finishes its own report on interrogation policies.

Perhaps the people best suited to envision what a torture investigation might look like are those who participated in one of the last big investigations. Daniel Marcus, a law and government professor at American University, served as the general counsel to the 9/11 Commission. In an interview with the Huffington Post, he said that the effort to look into the cause and intelligence failures of that terrorist attack were different from what would or could be done when looking into the Bush administration's policies on detainee treatment.

"The parallels are not exact here," he said. "I do think that we and the world already know a lot about what happened [with the use of torture] and we now, as a matter of policy, have repudiated what was done, said it was illegal, and said we are not going to do it anymore. So it is a different kind of situation than the 9/11 commission where no one knew what the hell had happened, what went wrong on 9/11, what happened, why was our intelligence so wrong..."

There were also, Marcus noted, fundamental differences over the scope and goals of the 9/11 commission, and those disagreements would surely accompany an investigation into torture (which would be more retributive in nature). In this regard, the major news regarding the investigation could come before the process even begins.

"There are two problems," said Marcus. "One is that, if you don't want to foreclose criminal investigations, you are going to have a hard time getting testimony to people without giving immunity. And the commission can't grant immunity unless it is under their statute. On the other hand, if you give immunity you may be fouling up potential criminal investigations. So you have to decide what approach makes sense here: whether it is more important to have a let it all hang out truth commission which would hold people accountable but make it less like for criminal prosecution, or whether to pursue the criminal prosecution route."

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The central debate dominating discussions of a possible investigation into torture by the Bush administration seems to have shifted sharply in the past few days: from whether such an investigation sho...
The central debate dominating discussions of a possible investigation into torture by the Bush administration seems to have shifted sharply in the past few days: from whether such an investigation sho...
 
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- leonel I'm a Fan of leonel 5 fans permalink

SOLICITATION TO COMMIT TORTURE..
US Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 19, Section 373: SOLICITATION TO COMMIT A CRIME OF VIOLENCE.
(A) Whoever, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against property or against the person of another in violation of the laws of the United States, and under circumstance strongly corroborative of that intent, solicits, commands, induces, or otherwise endeavors to persuade such other person to engage in such conduct, shall be imprisoned not more than one-half of the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the crime solicited, or both; or if the crime solicited is punishable by life imprisonment or death, shall be imprisoned for not more than twenty years.
Chapter 113C, Section 2340A: TORTURE.
(a) Offense.- Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, ... (c) Conspiracy.- A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other that the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.
Section 2340: DEFINITIONS:
(1) Torture means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering ... upon another person within his custody or physical control.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 05/05/2009

My preference would be for the Department of Justice to pursue the investigation. Laws were broken, not only domestically but internationally, and should be advanced by the department most able to render appropriate legal opinion. Despite the attempt to politicize this department, I still think it would be the most obvious choice to lead in this vital national matter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 PM on 04/24/2009
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Since, the Bush administration claimed they had the power based upon the constitution; making our system
a unitary executive rather than a federal system ; that the federal supreme court should decided if the admiinistration violated the constitution and abused power

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 04/24/2009
- truthglow I'm a Fan of truthglow 10 fans permalink

Conyers, Leahy, and Reid will get nothing done. Immunity must be given sparingly, and PROSECUTION MUST be done to select offenders, or there will be no justice at all! Our Congress is largely SPINELESS, and therefore an Independent Prosecutor of absolutely scrupulous integrity should be selected by Holder for any real justice to be had by "we the people" of the USA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 AM on 04/24/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 351 fans permalink
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Agreed. This belongs with the DOJ. Let Congress concentrate on the economic plan and get that back on the right track. They need more hearings like the ones Carolyn Mahoney is holding with the Joint Economic Committee.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 AM on 04/24/2009
- PepperzMom I'm a Fan of PepperzMom 7 fans permalink
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From LYLEHOLSTEIN on this thread:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/23/robert-mueller-bush-fbi-d_n_190628.html

http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/854-doj-prosecuted-texas-sheriff-in-1983-for-waterboarding-prisoners.html

DOJ Prosecuted Texas Sheriff in 1983 For Waterboarding Prisoners

In 1983, the Justice Department prosecuted a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies for waterboarding prisoners to get them to confess to crimes.

The deputies were sentenced to four years in prison and Parker pleaded guilty to extortion and federal civil rights violations and received a 10-year sentence.

Yet nowhere in the four "torture" memos released by the Justice Department last week that authorized the CIA to waterboard detainees do the attorneys who drafted the legal opinions mention the federal case U.S. v Parker et al, in which San Jacinto County Sheriff James Parker and three deputies" Carl Lee, Floyd Allen Baker and John Glover"were found guilty of torturing at least six prisoners between 1976 and 1980 in a rural part of the state 60 miles outside of Houston.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 PM on 04/23/2009
- JNagarya I'm a Fan of JNagarya 30 fans permalink

"If investigations actually do go forward, there seem to be three clear options: creating an independent commission, launching a congressional probe, or having the Department of Justice tackle the topic, likely by appointing a special prosecutor."

All threee are called for -- at minimum for each to keep the other two honest.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 04/23/2009

Obviously it's best to get to the truth -- give people immunity rather than go for prosecutions as a goal. That's not to say that prosecutions (of others without immunity) couldn't come about as a result of what is learned. But it's more important to know what happened, in detail, than to seek punishment. The latter is the barbarian instinct, comparable to families who want revenge for crimes via the death penalty; the former is far more productive. Those who are guilty will be shamed, their reputations destroyed. That's sufficient if we get as much of the story as possible.

What the story really comes down to is the fact that the Bush administration was actually terrorized by Al Quaida, manifested it in the form of classic siege mentality, a state of mind that operates out of (escalating) fear, goes to extremes (police state > tyranny) and justifies everything it does in the name of protecting itself (us). Their "good intentions" argument is no different than Oliver North's when he defended his role in the Iran-Contra affair; but that doesn't make it legal. This defense obviously opens the door to all kinds of criminal behavior on the part of the govt. So why don't we hear this parallel being made now by the commentators?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 04/23/2009
- TeeLolly I'm a Fan of TeeLolly 46 fans permalink

It appears that you believe the Bush administration. I suspect that the Bush response was more in the nature of "CYA" than "classic siege mentality." We've already gotten to a lot of the truth--enough to know that crimes were committed, laws and treaties violated, and the constitution trampled. Immunity will set a terrible precedent for future criminality and abuse.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:13 PM on 04/23/2009
- JNagarya I'm a Fan of JNagarya 30 fans permalink

Try arrogant sadism and the sense of entitlement that comes with the view that one is above the law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:04 PM on 04/23/2009
- Cunningham I'm a Fan of Cunningham 83 fans permalink
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Prosecution is not about punishment and revenge. It's about upholding the LAW. Remember the LAW?

Either we're a nation of laws and justice, or we're not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:36 PM on 04/23/2009
- Fightnmad I'm a Fan of Fightnmad 43 fans permalink
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Where to begin with your interesting (albeit, misguided) theory of an "Al Qaeda seige" mentality?

The ONLY legal excuse for a criminal act committed while one is paranoid, is when the person committing the act is deemed insane. Period. Criminal acts committed in war (e.g. the Mi Lai massacre), foreign or domestic acts of violence should and WILL be prosecuted by all governments that UPHOLD the Rule of Law.

How many senseless acts of violence does it take in order to see that when governmental officials resort to mass hysteria to justify illegal means to bring about illegal ends, this is nothing more than despotism? Despotic regimes rule the people by fear.

How many must die for one person to seek justice? A: One. This is why we have the judicial system, and as tangled and imperfect as it is, it is still better than the alternative- none at all.

Maybe your theory wasn't so misguided, bluevillage, as I originally thought.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 PM on 04/23/2009
- Cunningham I'm a Fan of Cunningham 83 fans permalink
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How can Congress investigate when the Gang of Eight are complicit in approving torture?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:46 PM on 04/23/2009
- JNagarya I'm a Fan of JNagarya 30 fans permalink

Congress doesn't consist solely of your "gang of eight".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:04 PM on 04/23/2009
- Cunningham I'm a Fan of Cunningham 83 fans permalink
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The Gang of Eight is still very powerful in the Congress.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 04/24/2009
- Okieborn I'm a Fan of Okieborn 62 fans permalink

Sorry Smoke And Mirrors "WILL NOT" Go This Time !!!!
Do Your Jobs, and get some convictions !!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:10 PM on 04/23/2009
- Okieborn I'm a Fan of Okieborn 62 fans permalink

Investigate Hell !!
Lets Get Some Convictions !
The American Citizenry Knows The Truth !!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:08 PM on 04/23/2009

This is the truth folks, this is all smoke and mirrors. Nothing will come of this. Nothing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:04 PM on 04/23/2009

Both the dems and the cons are hesitant because they are reviewing their portfolio's to see if they can live the same lifestyle to which they've become accustomed. If the s hits the fan, their goes the neighborhood. They may have to move because the corps. will no longer bankroll them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 04/23/2009

Bush, Cheney already admitted in open public speeches that they did it, the memos are released proving it happened. What do we need an investigation for?

To see if they are lying about doing it?

Or is Mr. Bush going to say "I was just kidd'in when I said that" hehehe

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 PM on 04/23/2009
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GREAT article:

My Tortured Decision

"FOR seven years I have remained silent about the false claims magnifying the effectiveness of the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding. I have spoken only in closed government hearings, as these matters were classified. But the release last week of four Justice Department memos on interrogations allows me to shed light on the story, and on some of the lessons to be learned." con't

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:38 PM on 04/23/2009
- TeeLolly I'm a Fan of TeeLolly 46 fans permalink

Excellent op-ed. Thanks for the link.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 04/23/2009
- azcamp I'm a Fan of azcamp 9 fans permalink

Truth is Rumsfeld, Bush and others were so angry on 9/11 that they hastily engaged in reacting based on fear. Congress members who were briefed in secret had little outside information to stop this ball from rolling downhill, over the principles of the U.S. Constitution and past the gaze of international lawyers.

The DOJ and the White House gave in to the very worst case scenario that had Saddam Hussein pointing nuclear warheads at American cities. Without sane voices to ask rational questions, they raced to redefine torture and go to war with Iraq.

President Obama is right to ask the nation to acknowledge the faulty judgment but not persecute the CIA or military interrogators who were commanded to use techniques that were reported to be legal.

Congress should not take on the investigation because Congress did not speak up in 2002 or 2003 when they could have prevented the abuses. The DOJ should not appoint a special procesecutor because we remember Ken Starr and his process.

If there is to be examination of the truth, there should be an commission like the 9/11 panel that can shed light on how to avoid this in the future. We do not send former Presidents to jail based on hindsight.

We already know that the Bush DOJ was political and staffed with the ideologues rather than brillant legal scholars. History will not repeat itself. The American people will not elect another George Bush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:20 PM on 04/23/2009
- joebloe I'm a Fan of joebloe 38 fans permalink
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So let's sing Kumbaya and go on our merry way?

I'm sorry, but there were crimes committed and people need to answer for those crimes. Whether they are convicted of anything or not would depend entirely on the defendants' rationalization and mitigating factors. If they can convince a jury that their actions were either not criminal or justifiable, then they can go on their merry way. Otherwise they belong in prison.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:28 PM on 04/23/2009

I agree but let's get them all including the likes of Reid, Kerry, Dodd, and Pelosi who knw all about this and did nothing. The same people that now want an investigation. sorry but that will never happen!!!! The political hypocrisy is so thick you can choke on it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:34 PM on 04/23/2009
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