Military Agency Called Harsh Methods 'Torture,' 'Unreliable'

Washington Post:

The military agency that helped to devise harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

Read the whole story: Washington Post

Comments

[wordvarc]

Yeah, well, that Joint Personnel Recovery Agency "torture" call was in 2002.

This is 2009.

We're 'stimulated' and 'enhanced' whether it be steroids, silicon, financing or 'interrogation techniques.'

"We've come a long way baby!"

[jeanrenoir]

The Net is so magnificent. (I know, 90% of hits on it are for porn, bu still. . .) The Net has turned us into a nation of Emile Zolas, instantly able to get out the dirt and shape our passionate political debate. There is simply no place for evil to hide anymore. The Net will always out it, and put it naked on YouTube. This is one of the signal developments in the history of humanity, the political equivalent of the discovery of antibiotics.

[imsosure]

Of course they are unreliale, an eight year old could figure that ought. But let's assume that the soldiers who were convicted and jailed were made to believe they were simply following orders, then Obama ought to release and reinstate these solders without prejudice asap.

[lungfish]

Toture did not bring in Padilla or KSM.

Here is a quote from the interrogator of Aby Zubayda,:

Soufan says Abu Zubaydah gave up the (Padilla and KSM) information between March and June 2002, when he was being interrogated by Soufan, another FBI agent and some CIA officers. But that was not the result of harsh techniques, including waterboarding, which were not introduced until August. "We were getting a lot of useful material from [Abu Zubaydah], and we would have continued to get material from him," Soufan told TIME. "The rough tactics were not necessary."

[ArborialBiped]

"As a senior interrogator in Iraq, I conducted more than three hundred interrogations and monitored more than one thousand. I heard numerous foreign fighters state that the reason they came to Iraq to fight was because of the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay. Our policy of torture and abuse is Al-Qaeda’s number one recruiting tool. These same insurgents have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of our troops in Iraq, not to mention Iraqi civilians. Torture and abuse are counterproductive in the long term and, ultimately, cost us more lives than they save,"
- former senior military interrogator Matthew Alexander.

[bastalready]

From your lips to Cheney's ears.

[jham710]

Truer words were never spoken. This "debate" over torture's "effectiveness" has GOT TO END.

http://www.thehamandlegsshow.com

[Colmore]

The biggest mistake the Bush/Cheney administration made was believing Rove, that they (repubs.) would be in charge for the foreseeable future. They were confident that all their dirty deeds would never be exposed. Well, the "Boy Genius" got it wrong!! Now they are about to face their wrongdoing, and they are SCARED. They all face war crimes charges, and are coming out of the woodwork to protest. Honesty is the best policy. Too bad repubs. who think that way are few and far between.

[AliMB]

Part I

As has been H u f f i n g t o n Post's proclivity, the headline is rather misleading. Here are some reasons why:

I believe this JPRA document adds little to the 't0rture' debate, either to the efficacy of 'enhanced techniques' i.e. did they yield important information (which like most of the CIA, I believe they did) or to the legality of the program.

First, this 2002 memo attachment argues t0rture could lead to unreliable­/inaccurat­e information. I find the inclusion of this point peculiar because it would indicate that other forms of interr0gation were incapable of yielding unreliable information. De rigueur of intelligence gathering, some information turns out to be incorrect irrespective of the method of e x t r a c t i o n.

Second, the attachment speaks of "t0rture" in broad terms and does not address specific techniques e.g. waterb0arding. This is important because according to the OLC memos, waterb0arding (as applied by the CIA) fell within legal guidelines i.e. it wasn't legally 't0rture'. In fact, the August 1st OLC memo draws upon the JPRA's own advice on psychological effects to conclude that waterb0arding does not cause "prolonged mental h a r m " and thus "would not constitute t0rture within the meaning of the statute".

[AliMB]

Part II

Third, this document came before the10 enhanced techniques were authorized for application on A b u Z u b a y d a h . Therefore, the JPRA cannot weigh in on the efficacy of the CIA's program, nor if the manner in which enhanced techniques were applied constituted 't0rture' as prescribed by JPRA military officers. The attachment mentions extreme "physical and/or psychological duress" (the word 'extreme' was underlined), but I don't know if that translates to waterb0arding.

Fourth, some of the arguments by the JPRA contradicted that of SERE psychologists who were later contracted by the CIA, which is ironic given that fact that the SERE program is run by the JPRA.

Finally, even the attachment includes language that could be interpreted to argue for the efficacy of 'enhanced techniques', explicitly stating that "systematic manipulati0n of the subject's environment is likely to result in a subject that can be expl0ited for intelligence information and other national strategic concerns". Could this "environment manipulati0n" include waterb0arding?

While this memo attachment offers a good overview of potential 'operational concerns' (from a military point of view), it is too broad to have much utility for CIA decision-makers vis-à-vis the interr0gation of high-value terr0rists.

[GalenL]

You are demonstrating moral relativity at its best, along with a good ol dose hyperbole.

"It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering – one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state – in this case the US.[135]"

(Waterboarding wiki, quote from: Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture)

[KillBillV2]

That wasn't necessary, the facts are WE DO NOT T-0-R-T-U-R-E! There is no denying that w_aterb0arding his t_0rture. It did not give us valuable information that would stop another Nineeleven because the time line is way off from when they said that they got information from KSM. Not only that but every person so far that has been t_0rtured said that they gave "false information" just to make the pain stop, therefore it's not reliable. We are not supposed to make exceptions to the rules when we "panic". If that's the case then that is what these t_err0rists wanted all along, they wanted us to go down to their level and panic.

[evekendall]

If you become the same monster that your enemy is, what's the point? Then you're just members of the same club.

[jham710]

You are absolutely correct.

http://www.thehamandlegsshow.com

[TruthSeeker09]

"CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks"
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

[Adrienne Williams - Huffpost Blogger]

I say America has lost their way -- note, the Bush Administration lost their way, and now they want to justify these crimes. Again, everyone is bad, American is good. Yeah right, now the whole world knows what liars we all are.

[Badfickle]

"... there is no place for abuse in what must be considered the family of man. There is no place for torture and arbitrary detention. There is no place for forced confessions.

The roots of American rule of law go back more than 700 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta. The foundation of American values, therefore, is not a passing priority or a temporary trend."

Newt Gingrich OCTOBER 30, 1997

[jham710]

Do you think 2009 Newt will listen to 1997 Newt?

http://www.thehamandlegsshow.com

[RJII]

i wasn't aware there was a 2009 model. I thought 1997 resurfaced

[timberdoodle]

When you reference these torture memos no one is talking about one of the most sadistic comments that read, "IF THE PERSON YOU ARE WATER BOARDING DIES THEN YOU ARE DOING WRONG!"

Does anyone wonder how many people were killed while trying to perfect the torture?

[leatherneck1971]

Anyone doubt these republican self professed christians, believers in Jesus, compassionate conservatives, will find on judgment day as they face Jesus a awe and shock when he says unto them, I know you not, since when you ignored the poor, hungry naked those sick and in prison {Quantanomo bay, Abu Gharib prisons} you did this to the least of these you did it unto me! And havign said this Jesus sends them to God the father whom will not even look upon them as they are cast into that lake of fire for all eternity with Hitler & Himmler & cronies, Stalin & cronies, Mao & cronies to have a eternal debate on how their patriotism, nationalism views justied the means to their ends, and I venture a bet this will be one hot eternal debate!

[HyperInfluential]

I like to believe when they reach the afterlife the torturers will be confronted by their victims, whichever way they turn, they will not be able to avoid meeting their eyes and they'll just ask over and over again, "Why? Why?? Why???"

Of course these will just be illusions, the real souls of the victims will have been restored to joy and be frolicking around somewhere.

[leatherneck1971]

Its funny watching these 20% Bush/Cheney fans explain, justify their heros war crimes as patriotism, nationalism, reminds me of the Nuremburg Nazi war crimes trials old tapes, how the unrepentent Nazi's proudly stated they were defending, their country, people and merely followed orders, and guess that defense did not work well for them as they went to the gallows!

[NWBrunette]

Can everyone please stop the charade of pretending uncertainty as to whether its "harsh interrogation tactics" or "torture"? It was torture for goodness sakes. The ONLY reason the other phrase was thrown out there was so the right wing could sew distraction, as is their usual strategy. Stop falling for it.