US Wants Mandatory Cuts In Greenhouse Gases Across The Globe In Major Environmental Policy Shift: AP

JOHN HEILPRIN | 04/29/09 07:02 PM | AP

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UNITED NATIONS — The Obama administration, in a major environmental policy shift, is leaning toward asking 195 nations that ratified the U.N. ozone treaty to enact mandatory reductions in hydrofluorocarbons, according to U.S. officials and documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"We're considering this as an option," Environmental Protection Agency spokeswoman Adora Andy said Wednesday, emphasizing that while a final decision has not been made it was accurate to describe this as the administration's "preferred option."

The change _ the first U.S.-proposed mandatory global cut in greenhouse gases _ would transform the ozone treaty into a strong tool for fighting global warming.

"Now it's going to be a climate treaty, with no ozone-depleting materials, if this goes forward," an EPA technical expert said Wednesday, speaking on condition of anonymity because a final decision is pending.

The expert said the 21-year-old ozone treaty known as the Montreal Protocol created virtually the entire market for hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs, so including them in the treaty would take care of a problem of its own making.

It's uncertain how that would work in conjunction with the Kyoto Protocol, the world's climate treaty, which now regulates HFCs and was rejected by the Bush administration. Negotiations to replace Kyoto, which expires in 2012, are to be concluded in December in Denmark.

The Montreal Protocol is widely viewed as one of the most successful environmental treaties because it essentially eliminated the use of chlorofluorocarbons, or CFCs, blamed for damaging the ozone layer over Antarctica.

Because they do not affect the ozone layer, HFCs broadly replaced CFCs as coolants in everything from refrigerators, air conditioners and fire extinguishers to aerosol sprays, medical devices and semiconductors.

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But experts say the solution to one problem is now worsening another.

As a result, the U.S. is calling HFCs "a significant and growing source of emissions" that could be eliminated more quickly in several ways, including amending the ozone treaty or creating "a legally distinct agreement" linked to the Montreal Protocol, says a March 27 State Department briefing paper presented at one of two recent meetings on the topic.

State Department officials told participants at one of last month's meetings that the United States wants to amend the Montreal Protocol to phase out the use of HFCs, a change praised by environmentalists. But there appear to be some interagency snags.

Though the State Department secured backing from the Pentagon and other agencies for amending the Montreal Protocol, some opposition remains within the administration, U.S. officials say. It is not clear if the proposal to eliminate HFCs will be submitted by next week, in time to be considered at a meeting in November by parties to the Montreal Protocol.

Proponents say eliminating HFCs would have an impact within our lifetimes. HFCs do most of their damage in their first 30 years in the atmosphere, unlike carbon dioxide which spreads its impact over a longer period of time.

"Retiring HFCs is our best hope of avoiding a near-term tipping point for irreversible climate change. It's an opportunity the world simply cannot afford to miss, and every year we delay action on HFCs reduces the benefit," said Alexander von Bismarck, executive director of the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nonprofit watchdog group in Washington that first pitched the idea two years ago.

Globally, a huge market has sprung up around the use of HFCs, a man-made chemical, as a result of their promotion under the Montreal Protocol. Several billion dollars have been spent through an affiliated fund to prod countries to stop making and using CFCs and other ozone-damaging chemicals and to instead use cheap and effective chemicals like HFCs.

Scientists say eliminating use of HFCs would spare the world an amount of greenhouse gases up to about a third of all CO2 emissions about two to four decades from now. Manufacturers in both Europe and the U.S. have begun to replace HFCs with so-called natural refrigerants such as hydrocarbons, ammonia or carbon dioxide.

HFCs can be up to 10,000 times more powerful than carbon dioxide as climate-warming chemicals, according to U.S. government data.

Currently they account for only about 2 percent of all greenhouse-gas emissions, but the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change warned in 2005 that use of HFCs was growing at 8.8 percent per year.

More recent studies concur and show that HFCs are on a path to reach about 11 billion tons of greenhouse gases, which would constitute up to a third of all greenhouse gas emissions by sometime within 2030 and 2040 under some CO2-reduction scenarios.

House Democrats also are adding to the pressure on HFCs.

In an April 3 letter to President Barack Obama, California Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, and Massachusetts Rep. Edward Markey, chairman of the energy and environment subcommittee, urged the White House to offer an amendment to the Montreal Protocol this year.

"Although we strongly support a comprehensive international agreement on climate change, we believe that adding HFCs to the existing Montreal Protocol would be a sensible, cost-effective method of addressing a small but growing piece of the problem," they wrote.

Waxman and Markey also have drafted legislation laying out a broad outline for phasing out HFCs in the United States.

Worldwide, phasing out HFCs under the Montreal Protocol could prevent 90 billion tons of greenhouse gases by 2040, by including nations like India and China that were not part of the Kyoto treaty.

Nations such as Argentina, the Federated States of Micronesia, Mauritius and Mexico have recently pushed for climate protections under the Montreal Protocol, arguing every possible tool must be used to combat climate change.

The EPA in April determined that hydrofluorocarbons were one of six greenhouse gases endangering human health and welfare, a ruling that could eventually lead to mandatory reductions in the U.S. under the Clean Air Act.

"This is a strong sign of new American leadership in atmospheric protection," said von Bismarck.

UNITED NATIONS — The Obama administration, in a major environmental policy shift, is leaning toward asking 195 nations that ratified the U.N. ozone treaty to enact mandatory reductions in hydrof...
UNITED NATIONS — The Obama administration, in a major environmental policy shift, is leaning toward asking 195 nations that ratified the U.N. ozone treaty to enact mandatory reductions in hydrof...
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- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

This all becomes easier, If you don't think of the Earth as yours, or mine , or even ours.
The Earth does not belong to us, She belongs to our great, grandchildren. We are just borrowing her from them.
Think of how proud they will be of us their great thoughtfull ancestors. Maybe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 PM on 04/30/2009
- Lark817 I'm a Fan of Lark817 10 fans permalink

I think we belong to the Earth and if we don't soon improve our ways, she's going to have to get rid of us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:11 PM on 05/02/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

From the NY Times....

"For more than a decade the Global Climate Coalition, a group representing industries with profits tied to fossil fuels, led an aggressive lobbying and public relations campaign against the idea that emissions of heat-trapping gases could lead to global warming."

“"The role of greenhouse gases in climate change is not well understood,” the coalition said in a scientific “backgrounder” provided to lawmakers and journalists through the early 1990s, adding that “scientists differ” on the issue."

"But a document filed in a federal lawsuit demonstrates that even as the coalition worked to sway opinion, its own scientific and technical experts were advising that the science backing the role of greenhouse gases in global warming could not be refuted."

“"The scientific basis for the Greenhouse Effect and the potential impact of human emissions of greenhouse gases such as CO2 on climate is well established and cannot be denied,” the experts wrote in an internal report compiled for the coalition in 1995."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/science/earth/24deny.html?_r=1&hp

Even energy company scientists say human emissions of greenhouse gases on climate change is well established. What is the point of continuing to deny the science?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:45 PM on 04/30/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

Yeah Real,,I remember back in the 70s when the chemical companys were losing their market for 2-4-5-T Agent Orange in Veit Nam and started selling it under a new name to defoliate hardwood forest in the Ozarks. With the blessings of their Government.
Didn't take the folks long to see they were being poisened. Sickness, rashes, misscarraiges, child birth/heart defects. child deaths.
Unfortunately for the people there "just no science to support this" agent orange was not harmfull.
This went on for years, Millions dollas being made, people dying in Arkansas.
At last it got too hot and they took it off the market, Admitting no guilt...Of course.
You will never hear a giant corperation or industry admit they are wrong and stop making money until they are forced to.
It is the bottem line , not you they are concerned with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

It is all a cost-benefit anaylsis for the giant corporatons. They can still make more money selling a potentially lethal product and paying off the occasional lawsuit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 AM on 05/01/2009
- RexOzone I'm a Fan of RexOzone 28 fans permalink
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Could swine flu be the answer to global warming?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:09 PM on 04/30/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

It sure could, but it's not the one I want to see.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:34 PM on 04/30/2009
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The article reads "HFCs can be up to 10,000 times more powerful than carbon dioxide as climate-warming chemicals, according to U.S. government data." I believe this is comparing the effect of the chemical IN ISOLATION (as if it were the only one contributing to the greenhouse warming). When you add water (at 4%, by FAR the largest contributer) and CO2, much of the effect of the HFC's would eliminated since that part of the spectrum is already absorbed. We need to really understand the pros and cons of banning HFC's before we jump on the bandwagon. Some 'natural' refrigerents are quite toxic...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 AM on 04/30/2009
- pat8942 I'm a Fan of pat8942 4 fans permalink

Stock up on 134a, in a year or two you can turn a nice profit once they ban it.
Every time our fearless leaders ban something the alternative is always worse.
If they want to replace HFC's fine, but do a little research on the replacement first.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 AM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

Stage two thinking, I like it!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 04/30/2009
- jsgaetano I'm a Fan of jsgaetano 211 fans permalink
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Oh NOews!!! America's economy might crash if we stop polluting!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 04/30/2009
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Better a crashed economy than a crashed planet..!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 PM on 04/30/2009

I love how all the ignorant tools of the oil and coal industry propaganda would hand their children and grandchildren lives of misery so that the same industry could continue to make billions and billions of dollars.

Such greed and ignorance can't be taught, it must be inborn.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:46 AM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

Here is a question from a tool......­what energy is clean?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 AM on 04/30/2009

No energy is 100% clean BUT there is a HUGE difference in the environmental damage that coal burning or oil burning does as opposed to getting energy from solar or wind. The idea is to do things that minimize the damage as much as possible while still embracing progress and technology. It isn't fair that the people who will be mostly affected by our environmental irreverance are the people who have nothing to do with it's depletion in the first place. Its time to get rid of our collective narcissism and start thinking about how our actions affect the world on the whole...be­cause in the end, everything we do has on impact on someone, somewhere.­..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 AM on 04/30/2009
- jsgaetano I'm a Fan of jsgaetano 211 fans permalink
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Pretty much anything except coal.

Burning coal for power should be considered a crime against humanity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:04 AM on 04/30/2009
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Absolutely no contest - Nuclear.
It has the smallest footprint per Kw-hr, so it doesn't consume vast swaths of land like hydroelectric, solar or wind. The resources it consumes in operation are small relative to coal and oil. Transportation costs are relatively small for fuel and waste. It emits close to zero greenhouse gases. The waste can be recycled - minimizing the need for additional mining. The waste is easily contained - it doesn't go up the stack like coal and oil. Reliability is outstanding and it can deliver what our economy needs whith existing technology. The major drawbacks are ideological, and regulatory - NOT technical.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

Wasn't there a consensus "AMONG SCIENTISTS" that CFC's were dangerous to the ozone? And didn't those same scientists agree that HFC's were less toxic? Now all of the sudden we are at risk from HFC's? And you wonder why the public is so wary of "SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS" on global warming? Maybe its because the environmental community continually contradicts itself from Global Cooling to Global Warming to the Ozone layer? I think it is pretty safe to say we have an awful lot to learn before we go and dramatically change our way of life!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 AM on 04/30/2009

As one who has seen up close many engineering problems solved by some of the brightest minds in the world, I have to say that the naivete your questions expose is comical, but in the context of having you as a voter it is alarming.

EVERY solution to a real world problem is imperfect. It is the defining closely of the imperfection and discovery of how best to minimize that which yields most useful innovations. The growing presence of CFCs in the atmosphere was going to destroy life on earth in a short time if we did nothing about it. HFCs resolved that problem for us and the Ozone layer which protects us has gotten better. But the cost of using HFCs is becoming apparent now. Thus, an additional choice is upon us. Therefore it is unsafe to say that we can do nothing and expect to be safe. Or when you hear a train coming down the tracks do you want to wait until you can feel the rush of the air it is pushing before getting off the tracks?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 AM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

Joe my father is an engineer. He designed and implemented air pollution control systems in the 70's and 80's. I understand science is imperfect, which is exactly my point, we should not go jump into the lake unless we check the depth of the water first! Stage two thinking is of utmost importance here. We are about to implement one of the most costliest environmental policies we have ever seen. I want a little more reassurance other than "but what if we are right"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 AM on 04/30/2009
- fumes I'm a Fan of fumes 87 fans permalink
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say joe, it's soot that is melting the ice caps.. not CO2.

man-made soot, kinda like the snow around here in the spring time.. black.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 AM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

Mother earth will be here long after we are gone! While I am still here, I would like all the environmental chatter to cease. PLEASE you are polluting the air with your nonsense. First, we were all going to die of GLOBAL COOLING, then the OZONE. Now the opposite is true 30 and 15 years later. If your science is so exact why are you consistently wrong?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:59 AM on 04/30/2009

Anyone who thinks science is "exact" needs to think some more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:39 AM on 04/30/2009
- Lark817 I'm a Fan of Lark817 10 fans permalink

They weren't "wrong" about the ozone layer. There was a real problem, a real solution was offered, and now it's not as big a problem right now. It's just wrong to point to every failure as an excuse for no action. I just don't understand it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:02 PM on 04/30/2009
- stondem I'm a Fan of stondem 3 fans permalink

I digress, they were wrong about global cooling, and possibly global warming. According to their own admission wrong about HFC's.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 04/30/2009

I have read that famous "Global Cooling" study from the 70's. What it actually said was that in the absence of anthropogenic global warming, their study showed that the Earth could be expected to go into another ice age in 20,000 years. They specifically stated that within the scope of the study they were not considering ANY climate change over a time scale of less than 5,000 years and that they were NOT considering greenhouse gas emissions by humans.

So, they did not refute global warming, and if an ice age occurs, you can expect to wait 20,000 years, while global warming is happening over a period of decades.

Please stop posting this foolishness on the Internet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:42 PM on 04/30/2009
- Lark817 I'm a Fan of Lark817 10 fans permalink

This foolishness is one of their best arguments. As Colbert says, it's full of truthiness; science and facts be darned. I fully expect them to start spouting off about how "science" was wrong and since the Earth is not flat, we don't have to listen to scientists.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:04 PM on 05/02/2009
- WillWilson I'm a Fan of WillWilson 15 fans permalink
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For readers honestly trying to understand the science behind global warming (and other topics), I've posted a graph of our energy use from various sources over the last two centuries (from the US DOE's 2006 Annual Energy Review) online at:

http://www.sciencetime.org/blog/?p=116

I've also posted information showing the reality of global warming, and some consequences measured in other organisms:

http://www.sciencetime.org/blog/?p=95

Other plots show increasing sea levels, too:

http://www.sciencetime.org/blog/?p=125

If you simply want to deny reality, well, our country proudly gives you that right. Just as some fraction of U.S. citizens believes the Sun orbits the Earth, another fraction believes humans have no impact on the environment, local or global. The rest of us just have to work that much harder, and we will, in education and policy to get the things done that need to be done. If you have actual scientific disagreements, please provide citations to primary publications, to help clarify the scientific message. And though science doesn't progress by blogging, public opinion affects national policies, and these denials of reality must be constantly countered by statements of fact.

Will Wilson

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 AM on 04/30/2009
- Rhetticent I'm a Fan of Rhetticent 21 fans permalink

Will, it does the environmental movement no good to portray those who object to global warming hysteria as "flat earth" idiots. There is an increasing amount of contrary evidence, if you would be willing to look at it. The infamous "hockey stick" graph showing the dramatic uptick in temperature does not take into account the fact that a significant number of reporting stations in the USSR went off line (including a large number in Siberia and other northern, cold areas) due to financial constraints. That alone skews the results. Honest scientists agree that warming stabilized in 1998 and has not continued. Ocean levels are the natural result of a warming cycle coming out of the Little Ice Age.

I have lived through so many environmental scares I simply cannot believe science any more. Observational science can be used to prove anything. Second hand smoke? Ask any baby boomer how much second hand smoke he/she inhaled growing up, when 75% of Americans smoked. Our entire generation should be dead by now if the "facts" on second hand smoke were correct.

Global warming is a hoax to guarantee a massive new income stream to the government by way of carbon taxes and cap and trade. WE will all pay more for energy so the government can get bigger and more powerful. Then, when global warming doesn't happen, they can claim they fixed it!!!! What arrogance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 04/30/2009
- DogLeg I'm a Fan of DogLeg 2 fans permalink
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Did you, by any chance, actually read the info Will was gracious enough to link for your convenience? The reason I ask is, you don't make any salient points to refute the info on them. You simply continue your rant with the same restricted thought patterns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 PM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

Well, the cigarette companies fed you misleading information about second smoke, which is labeled a carcinogen by the EPA, and you believe them. Then climate deniers, with no science to back them, mislead you about climate chnage and you believe them. Your track record is not so good! Like many conservatives you do not know real information from the Fox News variety!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:37 PM on 04/30/2009

Sorry, but as soon as you ignore all the data and declare that it is a hoax, you have entered the "flat Earth" camp.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:44 PM on 04/30/2009
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Definition: The greenhouse effect is the absorption by atmospheric gases of infrared radiation that would otherwise be lost to space.

Fact: This effect has a significant effect on the this world that makes it habitable by our form of life.

Hypothesis: Gases released by humans are causing catastrophic warming of the planet.

Observation: Surface temperatures are increasing faster that upper atmospheric temperatures.

Analysis: Greenhouse gas warming models show that in the upper atmosphere the concentration of CO2 is low enough that a fractional change in concentration with cause a change in absorption (it is saturated lower in the atmosphere) and therefore the effect of increasing CO2 would show the most warming there.

Possible Conclusions:
1 - The increase in CO2 concentration is not driving global warming.
2 - The climate models showing the warming should be driven from the upper atmosphere are wrong.
3 - The measurements of the surface vs. upper atmospheric temperatures are wrong.

This question (as well as many others) need to be understood better before INFORMED policy decisions should be made. There is a difference between science and ideology and I fear has been lost on this issue.

Disclaimer: I am not, nor have I ever been, paid by big coal or big oil to shape my opinions or thoughts. I do, however, want to preverve the ability to turn on the lights at night and warm my house in the winter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 AM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

The question is understood well. Read the science, of which very little is decided here in Huffpost.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 PM on 04/30/2009
- JEP57 I'm a Fan of JEP57 7 fans permalink

If scientists suddenly discovered a chemical that could be sprinkled in the atmosphere around the world that would stabilize the temperature and keep it stable, it wouldn't go over very well with a lot of global warming theory proponents because it would remove government control of businesses and industry from the equation and the ability to raise new taxes. With a lot of these guys, it has nothing to do with environmentalism and eveything to do with political activism. "Whaddayamean the temperature is stabilized! We need to crack down on these greedy and arrogant capatalists and put them in their place".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:26 AM on 04/30/2009

While you play in your thought experiment sand box, please keep out of the way of the rest of us who are trying to deal with reality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 AM on 04/30/2009

You can always tell a ditto head.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:42 AM on 04/30/2009
- DogLeg I'm a Fan of DogLeg 2 fans permalink
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guingan...

Your definition is incomplete. This planet is known as a cool body 'radiator.­' It emits energy in infrared (heat) wavelengths from its surface and atmosphere back toward space. However, some of this infrared radiation is absorbed by carbon dioxide, water vapor, methane, CFCs and other gases in the lower atmosphere and then is reradiated to this planet, thereby delaying heat loss to space. This counterradiation process is an important factor in warming the lower atmosphere. The similarity between this process and the way a greenhouse operates gives the process its name--the greenhouse effect.
In the atmosphere, this analogy is not fully applicable because infrared radiation is not fully trapped as in a greenhouse. It is delayed. The more CO2, and other naughty boys, the longer the delay and more absorption in the lower atmosphere thus the heating.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 PM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

Well, that still would not address the coming scarcity of oil and need for alternatives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:29 PM on 04/30/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

yeah JEP
I'd sure hate to see, those commies get in the way of those good All American Capitalist like AIG on Wall street.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 04/30/2009
- lastpost I'm a Fan of lastpost 29 fans permalink

Doesn’t this squabble about global warming only serve to divide? Tell me that fossil fuel is finite, and you won’t hear a word.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:59 AM on 04/30/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

If you are asking if all the fossil fuel can be used up , the answer is Yes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 PM on 04/30/2009
- fumes I'm a Fan of fumes 87 fans permalink
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~ BREAKING NEWS ~

man-made soot reversing effect of arctic ice albedo..

instead of reflecting heat the ice now absorbs it:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LT461035.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:44 AM on 04/30/2009
- evan la I'm a Fan of evan la 5 fans permalink
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Here we go. Hang on to your hat. Buh bye Bangladesh.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 AM on 04/30/2009

I hope these kinds of initiatives succeed. Maybe then my 3-year-old and 9-month-old nieces will have a chance to live long and healthy lives on a planet that stays inhabitable far, far, far into the future.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 AM on 04/30/2009
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Yeah, the Dems need them on the planet for a long time to come. Afterall, someone has to pay for all of this nonsense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 AM on 04/30/2009

OK. What's your point? Are you going to be raptured away and so you don't care about his nieces?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:43 AM on 04/30/2009
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

Get ready for the price of EVERYTHING to go up.

Energy prices and food prices will go up and productivity will go down. Job loses will rise and more and more people will have to depend of government for their every need. All over a HOAX.

THAT'S the Obama utopia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 PM on 04/29/2009
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'Ere man, just have a little puff of this hopium and everything will be alright. P u f f...p u f f.....yeah it's all going to be alright...­.. p u f f.....our gov't is effective and efficient and looking out for us. 'Ere...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 PM on 04/29/2009
- izmunuti I'm a Fan of izmunuti 2 fans permalink

Think about how much PRICES WILL RISE IF WE DO NOTHING about this REAL crisis.

- price of flooded cities, coasts, and farmland
- price of millions of people losing drinking water
- price of mass migrations
- price of massive droughts and lost crops/food shortages
- price of more floods
- price of stronger hurricanes
- price of continued cumulative mercury pollution from coal plants
- price of lost species
- price of lost pollinators
- price of the the fracture of the intricate web of life systems
- price of a more acidic ocean
- price of the loss of coral reefs and its inhabitants (goodbye sea life variety)
- price of the collapse of the food chain in the ocean (goodbye seafood variety)
- price of the loss of civilization as we know it

That's the denier's DIStopia.

We can either pay a little more now to invest in clean technologies -- and we get something for it -- a more secure and clean nation and world OR we can do nothing and pay later when we realize the natural world, its resources, and all our lives have been diminished (yes, even the wealthy won't be able to eat like they are accustomed when their favorite dish becomes extinct) and we have trashed our eden.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:57 AM on 04/30/2009
- Rhetticent I'm a Fan of Rhetticent 21 fans permalink

Iz, that's the perfect example of the horror show Gore wants you to believe. He specifically chose the most extreme models of climate change he could find to demonstrate the horrors of global warming: even those who produced the models admit that they had to greatly exaggerate the outcomes or no one would pay attention to them. This is all nonsense. The earth warms and cools, and nothing we can do will change that.

The government will tax the economy billions of dollars to regulate a TRACE GAS. 380 parts per million. There is still controversy about whether increased CO2 is a cause or an effect of warming, as the oceans release it as they warm. No one agrees on how to model water vapor, admittedly a hugely more important greenhouse gas than CO2. They don't want to admit that, because they can't figure out how to tax people for water vapor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 04/30/2009
- roncar I'm a Fan of roncar 3 fans permalink

So ice caps displace water, ice caps melt and no longer displace water. Water from the melted ice caps are added to the oceans. Does the amount of water added to the ocean from melted ice caps exceed the displacement of the ice caps? So much for the oceans rising.

Wore myself out on that one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 04/30/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

Yeah izmuniti but what happens if 150-200 years from now, when our decendents are living on a pristine, beatifull, clean , Earth. Living in the green countryside breathing clean fresh air drinking pure water, because of all this cleanup you are wanting.
AND THEN they find out this was all a hoax, We were wrong, think how bad they will feel they missed all the pollution, smog, traffic congestion, overcrowding. Oil wars, Famine,
They will feel justifiably betrayed and outraged.
and you should be ashamed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 04/30/2009
- evan la I'm a Fan of evan la 5 fans permalink
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Hoax? It must require enormous exertion to remain so willfully ignorant.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 AM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

Think how much prices will rise by doing nothing. Oil prices will skyrocket as the world runs out and wars will result, water will get scarcer and much more expensive, insurance rates will skyrocket as insurance companies pay off catastrophic claims as people's homes are flooded, are in the path of hurricanes, or damaged by wild fires. There will be hundreds of thousands of climate refugees looking for a home as Bangladesh floods and rivers sustained by mountaintop glaciers dry. Agricultural production will decline a good deal leading to skyrocketing food prices, in addition to scarce water supplies.

On the other hand, green technologies will produce tens of thousands of good paying jobs, as other new technologies have over the years. Ohiomark says climate change is a hoax. He must never read a newspaper.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 AM on 04/30/2009
- Rhetticent I'm a Fan of Rhetticent 21 fans permalink

Real, the more I read, the more I realize how much nonsense this is. Try reading the IPCC report itself, and then compare it to the "press release" version, which is all anyone in the media has ever read. The two documents are actually contradictory in many ways. Try reading "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming". Read it cover to cover, and look up each of the studies cited in the book. I think you may find that many of your assumptions about the catastrophes are based on pure fantasy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 AM on 04/30/2009
- fumes I'm a Fan of fumes 87 fans permalink
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say rp, you can't have it both ways..

are we running out of oil now?

or should we still fear it's mighty CO2 contribution?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 AM on 04/30/2009

Nope. Not a hoax. Not Utopia. That's the real world. Even Ford's Chairman says so. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f00c2b0c-342b-11de-9eea-00144feabdc0.html

You have been captured by an ideological hoax, funded by the oil industry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 AM on 04/30/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 157 fans permalink

Good article! Ford gets it!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:27 PM on 04/30/2009
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