Washington Post:
In an era when college students commonly take longer than four years to get a bachelor's degree, some U.S. schools are looking anew at an old idea: slicing a year off their undergraduate programs to save families time and money.
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This is lunacy. The objective of a 4-year degree is a well-rounded education. If a students "don't get anything out of" their coursework, the problem is the student. Apply yourself. Engage your professors and your classmates. That way, when you enter the workforce you bring a variety of perspectives and analytical tools to the decision-making process. If your objective for earning a degree is only to "get a job," then attend a technical school.
Bravo, well-said.
Just don't engage PZ Meyers on the possibility of alternatives to evolution, don't engage Bill Ayers on the benefits of capitalism, and don't engage any professor in the Sociology Department at Washington University in a discussion about the benefits of being conservative. In today's classroom engaging professors consists of agreeing with them.
If the coursework is carried through the Summer months the student doesn't need to lose any breadth of offerings from a typical four year program If on the other hand they simply cut requirements and hours to create a three year degree then it will obviously not be the same as a traditional four year major.
If you are a typical college student, you spend the summer working your tail off so that you can afford to eat and wash your clothes during the term. Leave summer alone, please, thank you.
Bad idea! Sure, some students may be able to get away with a 3-year education, and schools can work with them, but few students can accomplish 4 years of work in 3 years.
As for saving money, if you are worried about costs, don't go to the most expensive school in the US, namely GWU. I went there and it's a good enough school, but not worth $54k/year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwVVpwBKUp0
Here is a good graduation video showing the important things to learn in life.
No way will I personally support any further dumbing down of American kids...I'm almost beginning to wonder if this is being done to purposely ruin our country?
We can't compete as it is with the education available in Europe. Must we leave EVERY child left behind.
It is always education that is the FIRST to get funding cut...here in California, Obama gives our students money for college and Arnold's first choice to balance the budget is to CUT Cal Grants and funding to schools....reversing Obama's help. And results in the poorer kids who have worked hard and have the grades...now can't afford the colleges now being taken over by rich kids who haven't worked a day in their lives and spend thousands of dollars on SAT training to get in...when poor kids..read a $20 book on taking tests.
I have TWO of those kids, straight A's...one relies on Cal Grants, carried a full load and works 20 hours a week , the other buried under student loans took a 15% pay cut on her first job...these hard workers are the one's who are hurt.
NOW someone thinks it's smart to cut the education to 3 years? Really...how on earth are our kids going to compete with the rest of the world with abbreviated educations?
This sort of instant gratification, short term thinking is ruining us....
Am I alone in asking..are these dumb decision trying to ruin us?
The education system in Germany turns our great university graduates and great technicians; however, it would never work here. We also need to limit the number of certain degrees in order to receive government financial aid. How many _____ Studies PhDs do we need?
Interesting that you mention Germany, my son is working to do a study abroad program in Germany because the education is superior there...and funny enough..it's cheaper for him to study in Germany than in the U.S.
Not sure why you think the European system of education , which you agree is great, won't work in the U.S?
Do you also think their superior health care won't work over here either?
I look at ideas and who has ones that are proven to have worked better and have to ask what the barriers to applying those here are?
I know the answer to that...curious what your response is.
As for funding only certain degrees...I still believe in the free enterprise system...and it works no place better than in a university. Universities pride themselves on offering degrees that result in real world jobs. The one my daughter picked, she picked specifically because they rated in the top 10 in the nation in regards to turning out the students that businesses preferred to hire...because they were the most prepared.
Yeah...and she got there on a scholarship due to her high SAT score , earned using a $20 study guide. Kids like these work 100 times harder to just be even with the privileged kids...yet kids like mine are the first to get funding cut...how stupid is that?
My son and his friends while going to school think they would have been better off going to a technical school rather than a 4 year college for their engineering degrees. The same body that recognizes degrees from the 3-year technical schools is the same EEE that recognizes 4-year college bachelor degrees.
Engineering students should be allowed to attend technical/vocational schools. Just don't expect the graduates to earn a BS or a BA. College isn't supposed to simply be a single-subject endeavor. One is supposed to become well-rounded and effective in the world. No wonder the U.S. has become a nation of easily-led sheep. There's more to life (and a college degree) than getting a job.
I would like to say that in our house he is Mr. English Person...correcting our grammar and has been doing so since elementary school. Ask the kid to diagram a sentence and he could run rings around a lot of English teachers I know. Spelling or geometry or algebra or physics...want to know about engines? Just saying...they should be able to opt out if they already have the rounded education and can prove they know their stuff. You can't write technical manuals without knowing how to write. Like he says...you either know it or you don't.
I absolutely agree with you on that one.
My son just finished his first year of college, one of his classes had nothing to do with his major...he took it out of curiosity and that class inspired him in wonderful and unexpected ways and gave him a bigger view of life and his goals and as he puts it...made him up his own game to succeed in life.
Your points are excellent!
only engineers get paid better....
I hate to say this, but a lot of engineers don't make as much as you think and many of them could use a few "liberal arts" lessons to relate a little better to the world.
you tend to forget 99% of what you learning after taking the tests anyway.
^learned^
A larger part of school is learning how to think and learn on your own.
And that not only can be done without the benefit of the university, but more often than not IS done without it.
Encourage a kid from a young age to think and learn on his own outside of school and those thinking skills will blossom later on in life, without the benefit of the university.
Good idea. The first year is usually general courses they automatically place you in anyway. Some are interesting but the whole idea is to give a taste of everything. In many ways that first year is a LOT like high school in terms of courses since they are so varied. There were only a few I liked and that didn't help in terms of grades because for many of them there was no desire to take them. My grades were always significantly better in courses that directly related to my major. Hated that first year due to having to take some of those courses.
It would help with GPAs not just time and money if they cut that first year off in terms of courses or at the very least shorten that type of education to one semester.
Most of those courses are to give students basic skills in college level writing and math, as well as a broad exposure to science, history, social sciences and a foreign language. College is more than just picking a major, it's also learning more about the world and life than just your major and your high school courses.
Believe it or not, precious few 18 year olds can tell you what they want to do with their lives. More than half will change majors, and most of them will never work in the field they majored in. College is more than just cramming information in your head. It's also about building skills in reading, writing, critical thinking, presentations, teamwork, and time management. All of these skills are useful in almost any work place situation, even if you never do differential equations or lit reviews on the job.
And al of those skills can be done without benefit of college.
Good idea as many classes just seem like "fillers" to generate cash for state universities. Cheryl Mikela
Exactly the point!
That's funny. I don't recall many of my courses being "fillers". I didn't like all my courses, but I found them all informative and challenging.
What a stupid idea. You can finish your degree in three years now if you can handle the credit load. What they're really saying is that they're going to cut the requirements for a degree -- thus cheapening the "full" degrees already earned by the rest of us. If they're going to do this, they should call it something else -- how about "the seventy five percent degree."
Call it Career and Technical Education...get with it man!
That's woman, nessie.
How about the revealing of the truth that college is much more of a money making venture than it is about "education", or "the academic experience" anyway. Anyone can get "education" in a vast array of areas for free at their local library. I've always been fustrated by the bull**** that is marketed by politicians and corporations that the only way one can move up the socio-economic ladder is with a college degree. Time was, all you needed was a high school diploma. Then it was a BA. Now it's an advanced degree. All that BS that undercuts the fact that an employer will train you in three months to do exactly what they want you to do, on a job that took at least 4 years and thousands of dollars to get. One should not have to go into debt to get a job.
Those with full four years degrees will most likely get selected for jobs over those with an abbreviated three year degree.
And that in and of itself just proves my point. What can one "learn" in four yearsof college that is so much more important that one can't learn it in three. I think there's a general agreement that at tleast a year of college is nothing but "filler" at most. Filler that does nothing but line the pockets of the university. Again, my thesis is that in the VAST majority of jobs that one supposedly has to have a college degree to get, an individual will get trained on the job to do exactly what the employer wants them to do, in a span that in no way equals four years."College" did not become a prevailing requirement for a "well paying" job, until the job pool became big enough for employers to be more selective.This would not be the case if we had more unions as history has proven.
That depends on what field you are in. Experience in the field you want to pursue is more valuable than a fourth year of college.
IMO, I really think most of those general courses are a waste. It's virtually repeating what the student already did in high school.
...and never learned.
Word.
I have students coming into my writing courses who can't write themselves out of a paper bag, so please don't talk to me about how general courses are a "waste" because it "repeats" what they "already did in high school."
High schools teach them just enough (bad) writing to be able to pass State-mandated tests, and that is the extent of it.
Waste for you, maybe.
Maybe for me because I was bored going over the same material (English, History, Algebra, etc) I had just covered 4 years earlier. So, I guess I'm speaking for myself. On the other hand, I went to private school and received a good education. So, maybe for students who came out of a poorly educated school system, those course are probably a good idea.
No harm intended, Escribacat.
Didn't pay attention the first time around, huh. Sorry you had to waste money. But live and learn.
And high school is a repeat of what you learned in grade school unless you take AP courses...which give you college credit depending on what school you go to! But I am happy both my kids went.
As someone who has done his share of recruiting college grads in the US, I shudder at the thought of job applicants with even poorer language, math and critical reasoning skills (among others). I've seen some here claim that the US has the "best education system in the world", and aside from the fact that's totally false at the secondary level (just look at the appalling level of high school dropouts), America's university system is very uneven. To be sure, you CAN get a very good education (especially if you have money or access to student aid), but most American land grant schools have seen both dramatic cuts in academic programs, and equally dramatic tuition increases.
In the end, this is just another penny wise and pound foolish solution that will further erode whatever is left of America's competitive advantage.
I went to school before it was decided that rote learning such a diagramming sentences would bruise the tender creativity of the students.
Everything I needed to learn about writing was taught in the 7th grade.
Now students spend their time on "group projects" and individual mastery and excellence are things of the past.
I ended up homeschooling my kids, I was so disgusted with the poor academics in public school.
I feel sorry for your children. Homeschooling is child abuse, as even the best teachers cannot teach a child every subject, and parents are often the worst teachers of all.
I already think our college system functions more like a job training institution than a higher learning facility... however, that's want the two major players in the system seem to want. Students no longer go to college to be educated... they want the highest paying job they can get. Employers no longer look for broadly based educated (read: liberal arts majors) employees... they want graduates w/ specialized degrees. Since we are already headed in that direction... we might as well keep following the trend.
I have worked with some computer engineers who are almost illiterate, not to mention horribly ignorant about history, politics, art, and society in general. I think all of them should be sent back to school. They may have learned C programming, but nothing more. I don't think this makes a particularly rich society.
yeah, but what does that have to do with getting their job done?
In these tough economic times, all the more reason to consider taking your general education courses at your local community college before transferring to a university to finish your bachelor's degree. Per unit fees are less expensive at community colleges.
Too bad teachers are paid just slightly more than minimum wage. You get what you pay for. It's an option only for people smart enough to figure things out by themselves. We need to switch to a system like Europe, where everybody can go to college for next to free.
I agree. Teachers don't mean much in this culture. In fact, a lot of people see them as losers. Being an expert in finance and exotic mortgages -- now there's something that'll get you somewhere!
But there is more to it than we don't pay teachers enough.
The system has spiraled in on itself with a more and more solidified secular humanist (*see note) mindset in the K-12 educational establishment. I loved teaching in community college (which I could do simply because I possessed a master's degree) and I would have liked to teach in K-12 except:
A. Discipline is nonexistent and disruptive even assaultive students remain to ruin classes
B. One has to go through the education/credentialing process which is offensive in that it has such a politically-correct group-think mindset which I'm betting 75% of the population thinks is BS.
C. The curriculum is set to standardized tests and has lost the essence of the subject ... particularly math.
note: I'm using secular humanist not as antonym of religious but to describe an array of group-think, politically correct, excuse-driven attitudes that permeate the K-12 educational establishment.
That's what I did. Here in Dallas, the courses are only $117 (for 3 hrs) at the community college, vs. $1200 at UT Dallas.
Wow, that is a big savings. In Iowa, the difference is only about $100 but that is still money saved.
Absolutely. Smaller classes and exactly the same information. Instructors who actually care, too.
Many public Universities are ready to admit to their students that it will take five years to graduate because they do not have enough faculty to offer the classes that they need. The economic downturn has been brutal on public university budgets and there have been hiring freezes.
Frankly, it works well for these institutions because they earn $$ on fees, not tuition. Screws the students though.
This might be an interesting intellectual conversation at the private school level, but it cannot happen at the public level in this economic climate.
Although it is easy (and trite) to look down on what we already have, the American higher education system is the best in the world. Cutting a year for students "who already know what they want to study" will be a loss because it is precisely the liberal system of learning about many different topics that makes people open-minded and flexible.
I guess this is one of those things that have to be considered but it is a loss.
Ummm, exactly how would it be a loss? If they already know what they want to study why take courses that have nothing to do with the specialized field they have chosen? Being open minded and flexible has nothing whatsoever to do with taking courses at some school.
To say the least what of the people who are not just coming out of high school and are adults who already live in the real world, why should they be punished spending extra money for nothing?
It's an education. It's not just about specializing in auto mechanics.....college is the first and often only at these prices opportunity to be exposed to many different types of subjects (unless you attend Liberty).
This is precisely what's wrong with American culture. There's no interest in intellectual exploration, no time for philosophy or art or archeology or history -- so let's just dump it. Who needs culture when you can fix a car? We are becoming a nation of engineers -- yes, but ignorant cretin engineers.
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First Posted: 05-23-09 01:03 PM | Updated: 05-23-09 01:12 PM