Liberals Frustrated On Gun, Guantanamo Issues

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CHARLES BABINGTON | 05/24/09 08:41 PM | AP

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FILE -- In this March 17, 2009 file photo, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., talks with reporters during a news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington. Rep. Steve Israel, D-N.Y. is in the background at right. Frustrated liberals are asking why a Democratic-controlled Congress and White House can't manage to close the Guantanamo prison or keep new gun-rights laws from passing. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci, FILE)

WASHINGTON — Frustrated liberals are asking why a Democratic-controlled Congress and White House can't manage to close the Guantanamo prison or keep new gun-rights laws from passing.

After all, President Barack Obama pledged to shut down the military detention center on Cuba for suspected terrorists. And Democratic control of the government would suggest that any gun legislation leads to tighter controls on weapons, not expanded use.

Even as they grouse, however, liberal lawmakers acknowledge that no one factor explains last week's disappointing back-to-back votes in Congress.

The Obama administration is focused on other priorities, they say. Party leaders don't want to endanger Democratic lawmakers from conservative districts by stressing divisive issues such as gun control.

On Guantanamo, many say, Obama and his allies were caught napping as Republicans stirred public fears about relocating suspected terrorists.

"I think it's one of the few times that he didn't think it all the way out," said Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., an unabashed admirer of the president.

As for trying to keep loaded guns out of national parks, Cummings said, "I don't think he put a lot of energy into it." Issues such as national security and the distressed economy deserve greater attention, at least for now, he said, adding that the president "picks his fights very carefully."

Such explanations provide small comfort to left-leaning Democrats after eight years of George W. Bush's presidency and nearly a dozen years of Republican control of Congress.

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"We'll probably end up passing more gun bills" that expand owners' rights "than we did during the Republican administration," said Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., a leading gun control advocate. "That is what surprises me."

She placed less blame on the White House than on ordinary Americans and advocacy groups that are consistently outflanked by gun owners' groups, especially the National Rifle Association.

"Until the American people say enough is enough, and get active in it," Democratic control of Congress and the White House will not be enough to turn the tide, said McCarthy, whose husband was killed by a gunman in 1993.

Two votes in Congress last Wednesday dismayed many liberals and exposed the limits of their influence even with Obama as president and Democrats holding solid majorities in both houses.

The Senate voted 90-6 to join the House in blocking the transfer of any prisoners from Guantanamo. Harsh treatment and indefinite detention of suspects there have sparked worldwide criticisms of the U.S. government and helped al-Qaida recruit volunteers, said Obama, who pledges to close the prison early next year. Lawmakers say they want more details on where detainees will be sent.

Also Wednesday, the House voted overwhelmingly to join the Senate in letting people carry loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges. More than 100 House Democrats and 174 Republicans voted for the gun measure, which was attached to an Obama-backed bill imposing new restrictions on credit card companies.

Earlier this year, gun-rights supporters derailed a bill to give the District of Columbia voting rights in Congress by adding a provision that would repeal the city's strict gun regulations.

The gun votes were less surprising to many Democrats than were the Guantanamo developments. The NRA remains among the most powerful lobbies, and many lawmakers take care to stay off its political enemies list.

"People do not want to be on the wrong side of this particular cultural divide," said Rep. David Price, D-N.C., who supports tougher gun controls. "It's too bad there's not a more responsible national organization" to counteract the NRA, he said.

In some ways, the gun-control lobby is choking on Democratic success in congressional races. "The seats we're picking up come disproportionately from those more conservative areas," Price said, where linking the Democratic Party to gun control can be dangerous at re-election time.

Rep. Lynn Woolsey of California is another Democrat frustrated by the gun debate. When she asks colleagues why they don't support tougher restrictions, she said, they reply, "You just don't get it, Woolsey. You don't have our districts."

"It has to do with being afraid they'll lose their election if they stand up against guns," she said.

Guantananamo is a more pressing issue for the administration.

For months, congressional Republicans and conservative commentators said Obama's plan to close the prison would place terrorists on U.S. soil, even though the locations presumably would be prisons. By the time the administration offered more details and reassurances, congressional Democrats were backpedalling, voting to block funds to relocate detainees.

"I'm not sure they realized the opposition they were going to come up against," Woolsey said.

Many Democratic lawmakers predicted that Obama will resolve the Guantanamo problem and eventually turn to gun issues, where he has advocated ownership rights with "common sense" regulations.

"I do believe that down the road the president will start working on some of the gun violence issues," said McCarthy, the New York Democrat. "But let's face it," she said. "We've got an awful lot of issues on our plate right now."

WASHINGTON — Frustrated liberals are asking why a Democratic-controlled Congress and White House can't manage to close the Guantanamo prison or keep new gun-rights laws from passing. After all,...
WASHINGTON — Frustrated liberals are asking why a Democratic-controlled Congress and White House can't manage to close the Guantanamo prison or keep new gun-rights laws from passing. After all,...
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- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

UsofA--I thought supporting the Bill of Rights was a progressive value--why are you advocating violating the 2nd amendment

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 06/15/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"Something tells me I could present facts, as I've helpfully done in earlier postings, and you'd request I look for "other"facts,"

As I have shown, some of the "facts" you presented were anything but and were refuted by the very sources you cited.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 05/29/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"Try better research"

My research is fine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 05/29/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"So, was the concealed caryy guy who shot a fellow traveler on the freeway because he "seemed threatening" meting out justice or acting in self-defense?"

Source?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 05/29/2009

Gun rights education from our founders:


Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T.
Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self
defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot,
Debates at 380)

Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in
almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent
Chronicle.)

Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers,
334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of
other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:51 AM on 05/26/2009
- Bobrobert I'm a Fan of Bobrobert 9 fans permalink

Gun control... give me a break... there are a few Americans who are tired of this silly push to ban guns.

Come on folks... teach your kids christian values and stop letting them see all the violence and sex on TV.

Have a parent at home 24/7 to show the kids the love they need... and stop trying to buy their love with "stuff".

Kids should not be forced to have sex beginning at 10 and 11 years old because they are left at home without adult supervision.

Try to set your priority for life your kids... not your "stuff"!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 AM on 05/26/2009
- UsofA I'm a Fan of UsofA 29 fans permalink
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Christian values? Like the Crusades? Catholic priests? Jerry Falwell? Jim and Tammy Faye Baker? The Inquisition? Vatican response to Naziism? Anti-contraception? Anti-gay? Anti-choice? Pro-gun?
Dear Lord, deliver me from your followers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 05/26/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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Christian values are love, forgiveness, helping others, not being materialistic, sacrifice, and non-violence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 05/27/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

Deliver me from progressive haters--it is easier to convince most Christians to accept a middle ground than progressives

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 PM on 06/01/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

In response to your hoplophobic ignorance downthread--when are you going to demand LEO's get counseling since they carry guns regularly

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 PM on 06/01/2009
- blico I'm a Fan of blico 47 fans permalink
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All the supporters of gun control need to be public with their views. I would suggest that a large sign be placed on their front doors. "THERE ARE NO FIREARMS IN THIS HOUSE"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:51 AM on 05/26/2009
- Bobrobert I'm a Fan of Bobrobert 9 fans permalink

Sad.

If there were supporters of gun control you would have it made in the shade... the numbers just don't add up.

It is the same with abortion... if there were not supporters for abortion it would be outlawed.

Wow... it is easier to kill the babies with abortion than to ban guns... be thankful you can kill the babies. Killing babies with abortion is much easier than the push to ban guns.

If all the babies we killed with abortion were alive... we would probably have another 50 million guns in various households.

Keep up the fight... kill the babies and stop all those guns from being sold in the future!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:03 AM on 05/26/2009

Yep, and everyone afraid of their house burning down that is convinced that, if anything bad happens, the local fire department will save them, should hand a sign saying. "THERE ARE NO FIRE EXTINGUISHERS IN THIS HOUSE"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 AM on 05/26/2009
- UsofA I'm a Fan of UsofA 29 fans permalink
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Only if gun owners are willing to place a sign on their lawn reading: "Paranoid Gun Owner on Premises. Call before knocking."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 PM on 05/26/2009
- twogunmojo I'm a Fan of twogunmojo 28 fans permalink

i have a sign in my front yard that says.."protected by smith & wesson"....even though the criminals know i have guns in the house try as i might i cannot get anyone to break in....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:28 PM on 05/26/2009

If I'm walking down the street holding an umbrella, and a car cuts me off in the crosswalk, I have been known to smack the back of the car with my umbrella - I'm afraid what I would do if I had a gun in my purse instead of an umbrella.
Not everyone has the ability to control their temper or their emotions - that is why gun laws are necessary. We are making it too easy for irresponsible, angry people to walk down the street with a gun and take out their emotions on innocent people. We should be worried about this as unemployment rises and desperate, angry people think nothing about showing how they feel with a gun.
Yesterday, my daughter sat in a chair at a beauty salon and watched a car-jacking (complete with a sawed off shotgun) take place right in front of the store on a busy street in broad daylight. Is this what we want our lives to be? I really don't want this for my family - or for myself. And no, I don't believe that we needed another person with a gun to have added to the scene above - we need to leave shoot outs at the OK corral for the movies.
I know my temper, I know that I will never own a gun because of my temper - unfortunately others are not so responsible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 AM on 05/26/2009
- HisXLNC I'm a Fan of HisXLNC 7 fans permalink

"I'm afraid what I would do if I had a gun in my purse instead of an umbrella. "

Would you be willing to put that in writing and submit it to the FBI so you can be added to the list of people prohibited from buying guns or getting a concealed carry license?

I ask because if you really think it's too easy for irresponsible, angry people to walk down the street with a gun and take out their emotions on innocent people, you should at least be proactive. It can't be made any harder for those people to walk down the street with a gun if none of them come forward and submit themselves to the law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:11 PM on 05/26/2009
- kaveman4 I'm a Fan of kaveman4 3 fans permalink

"I'm afraid what I would do if I had a gun in my purse instead of an umbrella. "

I know my temper, I know that I will never own a gun because of my temper "

You are projecting your weakness to control yourself onto others.

Please stop.

But at least you're honest, so I applaud you for that much.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:41 PM on 05/26/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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1.. Take some anger management classes.

2. "We are making it too easy for irresponsible, angry people to walk down the street with a gun and take out their emotions on innocent people. " We have made it progressively more difficult for the last 75 years, with very little effect. Perhaps it is time to try addressing the causes of violence instead of the tools used.

3. "Yesterday, my daughter sat in a chair at a beauty salon and watched a car-jacking (complete with a sawed off shotgun) take place right in front of the store on a busy street in broad daylight."

And did she do anything about it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:34 PM on 05/26/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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BTW, smack my car with your umbrella and you will end up in court or in jail.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 05/26/2009
- Chilito I'm a Fan of Chilito 16 fans permalink

Point one: please do us all a favor and never own a firearm. All of us will sleep better knowing that people such as yourself are armed with nothing more lethal than an umbrella.

Point two: Not everyone else has your uncontrollable urges to express intemperate rage.

Point three: Mature, law-abiding, adults are permitted to own legal firearms.

Point four: point two and point three are totally unrelated. Please stop trying to connect them.

Thank you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 05/27/2009
- UsofA I'm a Fan of UsofA 29 fans permalink
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Point 5: Due to the unrestricted proliferation of guns, any idiot can get one and use one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 05/28/2009

I am a lifelong Democrat/P­rogressive­/Liberal. I own guns. I always keep my .22 rifle locked in my pickup when I go camping. Why should a national park be any different? Lawful gun ownership is as American as apple pie. Criminals don't follow gun laws, that's why they're criminals, get it? Criminalizing law-biding citizens from exercising their 2nd amendment rights does NOTHING to prevent gun crime. The bell is rung, there are already over 800 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the USA. God help the Chinese or anyone else if they try to invade us.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:45 AM on 05/26/2009
- rfshunt I'm a Fan of rfshunt 46 fans permalink

"God help the Chinese or anyone else if they try to invade us....."

After 30 years of conservative economics, the Chinese don't have to bother invading us, they can just write a check and buy us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 AM on 05/26/2009
- montestruc I'm a Fan of montestruc 4 fans permalink
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They can write a check, so what?

It is all fiat money, and so in the end their worry is that we will inflate the money to the point all the goods and materials they sold us for fiat money, will be in our hand and all they have are theoretical numbers on a computer hard drive.

We did not say we would not dump trillions of $ into the money supply, as Bush was and Obama is doing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 05/26/2009
- UsofA I'm a Fan of UsofA 29 fans permalink
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Gun owner's paranoia is always on display with the "someone coming to get us" argument. If they can't find an enemy, they'll invent one, all in an effort to justify their inherent weakness.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 PM on 05/26/2009

Give it a rest. The 2nd Amendment is an individual right based on the Constituion and on the law. The olnly question is the degree to which it can be limited. That issue will be fought through the courts for the next several years. Describing gun owners as "paranoid" and "inherently weak" does no one any good and only demonstrates your lack of education on the issue.

David

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 05/26/2009
- politicky I'm a Fan of politicky 14 fans permalink
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The people are not represented in this country, businesses are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:20 AM on 05/26/2009
- Bobrobert I'm a Fan of Bobrobert 9 fans permalink

Gotta luve it.

It is the American way... wooooot!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 AM on 05/26/2009

You want to loose an election, start messing around with the people's right to bear arms. The fact is, there are solutions to gun violence. We know who are doing the crimes. There just is no courage to lock them up.

Instead, you want to keep a concealed hand gun permit holder like me from entering a national park because it will make you feel good.

Tell you what, go take a walk in East LA Saturday night and tell me how safe you feel. Nope, nope, nope, you got to go after me. That's a liberal in action. That's what you people never win and why Obama has got to keep distance between you people and him. You say you have your eyes on us? Well we have our eyes on you also.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 AM on 05/26/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

I am a fan of shall issue CCW because of many years working at a pharmacy on Santa Rosalia (right behind the Baldwin Hills mall--roughly Crenshaw and MLK blvd)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 06/01/2009
- Chris I'm a Fan of Chris 12 fans permalink

This sums up the issues with all our elected officials

"It has to do with being afraid they'll lose their election if they stand up against guns," she said

Stop worrying about your next election and start doing your jobs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 AM on 05/26/2009

Is prohibiting the right for one to defend oneself what you consider doing their jobs?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 AM on 05/26/2009
- montestruc I'm a Fan of montestruc 4 fans permalink
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FYI

Gun owners ARE ordinary Americans. About 37% of all Americans own firearms, by individuals. If you look at households the numbers are larger.

http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/show/7615487

If you look by states, ten states have over 50% of individuals as gun owners, and 25 states have over 40% gun ownership rates as individuals (not households so if the husband owns a gun and the wife does not she is counted as not being an owner).

Quite frankly the gun controllers do not have the numbers, organization, money or will to win this fight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 PM on 05/25/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

I have a suspicion that proRKBA bills are winning in Congress and being signed because politicians can count votes and that calculus is driving gunbanners nuts

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:30 PM on 06/07/2009
- dyldrix I'm a Fan of dyldrix 12 fans permalink

In the Year 2006 gun violence affected 0.000045% of the US population....real crisis we have here

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/firearm-deaths-age-intent.pdf

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 PM on 05/25/2009
- HisXLNC I'm a Fan of HisXLNC 7 fans permalink

Surely a statistically insignificant number justifies rendering yourself defenseless.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 05/25/2009
- UsofA I'm a Fan of UsofA 29 fans permalink
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The CDC, Center For Disease Control, whom I'm sure you'll "mercilessly debunk" cites the following stats for one year (2005) when some sensible gun regulation still remained: Total gun deaths in U.S. (all ages): 28,663.
Those killed by guns in 2005, broken down by age:
Under 1 yr: 13; 1-4 yrs: 46; 5-14 yrs: 377; 15-24 yrs: 6,575; 25-34 yrs: 5,789; 35-44yrs: 5,358; 45-54 yrs: 3,951; 55-64 yrs: 2,272; 65-74 yrs: 1,941;
75-84 yrs: 1,723; 85 and over: 618.
Those killed by accidental discharge of guns: 776.
Since 2005, coinciding with further relaxation of gun regulations, death by firearms has climbed annually. It really isn't hard to see a correlation, or the corrosive effect on a civilized society forced, for the moment, to accept guns in cars, on public streets, on college campuses or in, now, our national parks.
Try a little unbiased research sometime. It's illuminating, if you're open to that sort of thing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 AM on 05/26/2009
- dyldrix I'm a Fan of dyldrix 12 fans permalink

I pulled my stats from the CDC as well....I however subtracted suicides and legal shootings from the total number which equals around 13k shootings, divide that by our 300 million pop. and you'll find that only 0.000045 % of the population suffers from gun violence or accidents (accidents number in the hundreds and r insignificant). Gun violence has not gone up radically at all, the increase correlates with the increase in population, show me a 10% gain and will talk, hell show me a 5% gain and will talk

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:18 AM on 05/26/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"Since 2005, coinciding with further relaxation of gun regulations, death by firearms has climbed annually. ... Try a little unbiased research sometime. It's illuminating, if you're open to that sort of thing."

You mean like the fact that the CDC has only released final death data for one year subsequent to 2005 (NVSR 57-14 Final Deaths for 2006)? Or that according to their NVSR 56-10 Final Deaths for 2005 the correct numbers are 30,364, not 28,663?

Also, the AWB expired in 2004.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 05/26/2009
- slithers I'm a Fan of slithers 20 fans permalink

If you're for more government control you are not a liberal... you are a progressive. Even when it comes to guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 PM on 05/25/2009
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