GOP Belittles Democrats' Climate Change Proposal

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H. JOSEF HEBERT | May 30, 2009 06:46 PM EST | AP

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FILE -- In this Jan. 13, 2009 file photo, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels delivers the State of the State address to a joint session of the Legislature at the Statehouse in Indianapolis. Daniels, in the GOP's weekly radio and Internet address Saturday May 30, 2009, called the House climate bill "a classic example of unwise government." The address culminated a week of coordinated Republican attacks on the Democratic proposal which would require the first nationwide reductions in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases blamed for global warming. (AP Photo/Darron Cummings, File)

WASHINGTON — The climate change proposal developed by congressional Democrats and endorsed by President Barrack Obama does little to reduce global warming and saddles Americans with high energy costs, Republicans said Saturday.

Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels, in the GOP's weekly radio and Internet address, said the House's climate bill was "a classic example of unwise government." The address culminated a week of coordinated Republican attacks on the Democratic proposal, which would require the first nationwide reductions in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases blamed for global warming.

GOP House members used the weeklong Memorial Day break recess to drum up voter opposition to the Democratic bill. The governor's criticism echoed Republican lawmakers' arguments at "energy summits" in Pennsylvania, Indiana and California and at other forums during the week.

The proposal to cap greenhouse emissions "will cost us dearly in jobs and income and it stands no chance of achieving its objective of a cooler earth" because other nation's such as China and India will not have to follow, Daniels said.

"The cost for all American taxpayers will be certain, huge, and immediate. Any benefits are extremely uncertain, minuscule, and decades distant," he contended.

The bill would require a 17 percent reduction in greenhouse gases by 2020 and 83 percent reduction by midcentury. It advanced from the House Energy and Commerce Committee shortly before lawmakers left Washington for their holiday break, getting only one GOP vote.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., has said she wants to take up the measure in the full House this summer.

"The national energy tax imposed by Speaker Pelosi's climate change bill would double electric bills here in Indiana, working a severe hardship on low income families, but that's only where the damage starts," Daniels said. "In a state where we like to make things, like steel and autos and RVs, it would cost us countless jobs. ... Our farmers and livestock producers would see their costs skyrocket. and our coal miners would be looking for new work."

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Daniels made no mention of compromises by the bill's chief Democratic sponsors _ Reps. Henry Waxman of California and Edward Markey of Massachusetts _ aimed at easing the economic costs on energy-intensive industries such as steel and automobiles, and on regions heavily dependent on coal for electricity generation.

Under a cap-and-trade provision, polluters would be able to buy and sell emission allowances to ease the cost of the reduction. Initially free emission allowances would be provided to electric utilities and other energy-intensive industries facing unfair competition from abroad.

Waxman and Markey have argued that much of the higher fuel costs would be offset by increased energy efficiency and rebates _ using money from the sale of emission allowances _ to people facing higher energy costs.

But Daniels said there's a better approach than the cap-and-trade government mandate and "protect the environment, lower energy costs and create jobs at the same time all without raising taxes." He cited Indiana's production of ethanol and biodiesel, efforts to develop less polluting coal plants, expansion of wind power and conservation programs.

Congressional Republicans said that instead of a mandatory cap on pollution, they want to expand domestic oil and gas development, using some of the proceeds for renewable energy development, expansion of nuclear energy and more support for research into ways to capture carbon from coal burning.

The Democratic bill also would devote billions of dollars to carbon capture research and would require utilities to generate at least 12 percent of their power from renewable energy.

___

On the Net:

Video of address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?vDktew1-s4V0

WASHINGTON — The climate change proposal developed by congressional Democrats and endorsed by President Barrack Obama does little to reduce global warming and saddles Americans with high energy ...
WASHINGTON — The climate change proposal developed by congressional Democrats and endorsed by President Barrack Obama does little to reduce global warming and saddles Americans with high energy ...
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- research I'm a Fan of research 281 fans permalink

If you don't believe humans are changing the climate,

switch away from coal, oil and nukes

to rooftop 3 cent/KWH solar and waste Biochar Oil,

For national security and cost reasons.

See my profile for details.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 06/08/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT IN NATURE?

IS IT PROPERTIES OF GHG? OR IT IS PROPERTIES OF WATER, ICE, WATER DROPLETS AND WATER VAPOR?

IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS FOR MANKIND.

ANSWERS ON THESE QUESTIONS=TO BE OR NOT TO BE.

FORGET ABOUT POLITIC, ABOUT JUNK SCIENCE. EVERYBODY COULD ANSWER, IF HE (SHE), WILL START TO THINK, NOT REPEAT INFORMATION ABOUT GW.
INFORMATION IS NOT KNOWLEDGE. IN THIS CASE INFORMATION IS KNOWLEDGE, WHAT CELEBRITIES THINKING ABOUT GW, OR EVEN MORE WHAT THEIR SPEACHWRITERS THINKING.

EVERYBODY WITH EDUCATION 9 GRADE LEVEL HAS ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 PM on 06/04/2009

When you consider it took 30 years of research and computer technology to be able to run the models and solve the equations of state governing radiative transfer in an atmosphere and the subsequent motions of air in it, along with continued research in the quantum mechanics involved in the absorption and reemission of energy by molecules, then, no the problem is not grade 9 easy.

Solving these equations is hard; making models of future climate is hard; accounting for all of the forcing functions is hard. But in the past 30 years climate science has made significant strides, no, leaps and bounds, in this area. And most, if not all, of the models indicate that the global average temperature is increasing, with a very strong likelihood that the leading culprit is CO_2.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:54 AM on 06/05/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear drklassen I understand difficulties and progress in modeling of Climate.
"And most, if not all, of the models indicate that the global average temperature is increasing, with a very strong likelihood that the leading culprit is CO_2."

This your statement confirm for me, that "most, if not all" model are not good enough.
North Hemisphere is hotter than South only because it more land on North Hemisphere.

Only evaporation of water could explain this fact. It takes 339 kcal to evaporate 1 kg of water on oceans level and bring water vapor on cloud level (5-7 miles above) where latent heat of evaporation will go back to space more easely.

PROPERTIES OF WATER MORE IMPORTANT THAN GHG AND ACTUALY COOL THE EARTH, DESPITE THAT WATER VAPOR IS ALSO GHG.

PLEASE THINK ABOUT THAT. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
IF WATER VAPOR ACTUALY COOL THE EARTH WE HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOOLS TO FIGHT GW.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 AM on 06/06/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Well, if you read the article the Republicans are not denying climate change, which is refreshing because usually they sound like the flat earth party. What modern political party will find success through denying science and casting doubt on its findings after extensive research has established a scientific consensus on warming? The Republicans in this case are misleading the public about the true costs of the bill, which is not surprising. They usually mislead on something, but at least not about the science in the debate at the moment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 06/02/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Earth has an atmosphere and ocean, and the average surface temperature is a comfortable 15�C (59�F). Water evaporates from the ocean and land, cooling the surface. Winds carry the water vapor to other latitudes, and sometimes high up into the air, where heat is released when the vapor condenses to water. "
WATER EVAPORATES FROM THE OCEAN AND LAND, COOLING THE SURFACE.

As Democrats as Republicans are wrong. If Democrats are thinking that GHG are reason for GW and they repeat opinion of scientists, who advece Al Gore.
Republican are calculating amount of GHG emmited by mankind and nature.

Both of them missed: "WATER EVAPORATES FROM THE OCEAN AND LAND, COOLING THE SURFACE."

Water vapor and water DROPLETS, ACTUALLY COOL THE eARTH, DESPITE WATER VAPOR IS ONE OF GHG. (See below).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:22 AM on 06/03/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Yes, but even with the effect of water evaporating and cooling the surface as it has traditionally done, the average temperatures are still on the increase especially over the last 50 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:27 PM on 06/03/2009
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Republicans: shut up about global warming. For eight years you showed NOTHING. GOP input at this time is meaningless and they have no credence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 06/02/2009

"Climate change" "Global warming". It's a joke. These "green" jobs they talk about, we will lose 2.2 jobs for every "green" job that is created. Does this sound good to you? Not to me. unemployment is at record high now. The solar panels obama wants people to use, are MADE IN CHINA. Why can't we build them here? GE is in bed with the obama administration. They are getting many jobs from the government. I mean if Russia is telling us we are going towards marxism & socialsim, don't you see the problem? i do

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 PM on 06/01/2009
- 9liberal I'm a Fan of 9liberal 32 fans permalink
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someone needs to stop watching hannity!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 PM on 06/01/2009
Moderator's Pick

HuffPost's Pick

Where do you get that we will lose 2.2 jobs for every 1 green job? That makes no sense on the face of it. Any even half hearted analysis will show otherwise. The wind industry already in the US already employs more people than coal does and we haven't even started turning on the green economy yet. See http://greenwombat.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/01/28/wind-jobs-outstrip-the-coal-industry/

Some solar panels are made in China. Some are made in other places but some are also made in the US. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics_in_the_United_States If you do some research you will discover several articles, including on CNN about tax credits reviving solar and wind manufacturing in the US. The congressional plan does this.

And be serious. GE has been in bed with every sitting government in the US since it's inception. It has to be as part of it's business model. This does nothing for your argument. Of course they're getting many jobs from the government. They've been building turbines, nuclear power plants, and jet engines for decades. Governments buy these things obviously.........

Sigh.. here we go with the marxism thing again. No matter how hard the right wing tries to throw around ridiculous words it doesn't make it true. If the democrats are marxists, republicans are fascists. Can we move on please?

Do some of your own research and think.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:34 AM on 06/02/2009
- Hope Lives I'm a Fan of Hope Lives 13 fans permalink

The facts are this (government sites show)... George Bush systematically took the tax burden away from the rich (read Senate decisions) until they became the extreme rich. At the same time he moved the majority of the entire tax burden to the middle class and the poor creating a class of extremely poor people so vast and so much in poverty that we many never be able to change it. The Bush administration then used those very people, hopeless, helpless, searching, and they told them that they were the group chosen by GOD to save the world. And men (evangelical preachers) with airplanes, huge houses, limo's, boyfriends and very young girlfriends, did the dirty work for the Bush crowd. And Rush Limbaugh... someone to keep you terrified and in line. Now, "GE in bed with the Obama administration"... you can look up and see every dime GE and the insurance companies have given to every Senator. Republicans want to make it more expensive for your employer to cover you and you will have to buy insurance on your own. Obama is trying to pull you back up but it's up to you. Take this test... refuse any job or benefit created by Presdient Obama. The republicans gave you NOTHING. Plus you can't go towards "marxism and socialism" at the same time... Russians... right. I hope you chose to live the better life. Start by helping a child who is desperate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:22 AM on 06/02/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Well, when you link science and socialism it shows you are a true ideologue of the right and beyond factual analysis. You may need deprogramming.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:24 PM on 06/02/2009

If there were actually any scientific EVIDENCE that humans affect cimate -- then maybe some of this would be worth discussing.

But since there's not, this bill is just another power-grab by people who seem to want to cripple America even further -- when our economy is sliding down a rat hole as it is.

Many respected scientists theorize that the changes in climate are natural cyclical phonomena that are not affected by human behaviors, by things such as solar flares.

Until there is some CONCLUSIVE PROOF that our actions can change the situation, or even that we SHOULD attempt to change the situation -- I wish our government would stop finding more excuses to lose jobs, close businesses and hurt families with stupid bills such as this one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:52 PM on 06/01/2009

"The understanding of anthropogenic warming and cooling infl uences on climate has improved since the TAR, leading to very high confidence that the global average net effect of human activities since 1750 has been one of warming, with a radiative forcing of +1.6 [+0.6 to +2.4] W m–2" IPCC Report 'Summary for Policymakers" p. 3. http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-spm.pdf

Read the whole report to find out more. Few if any truly respected scientists sign onto the "sun spot" theory. If this isn't deemed by you to be conclusive then think about Pascal's Wager. You state that this will conclusively lose jobs, but how do you know. What honestly respected economist says so for sure? Given the strategic importance of energy independence and the nature of green jobs that can't be outsourced, I'm perplexed at the willingness not to examine the upside.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 AM on 06/02/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Thanks for introducing some real science on the subject!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 06/03/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

When you say there is no scientific evidence that humans affect the climate when there is literally bookshelves of knowledge on the subject, it may say more about you than the science of warming. if you stick your head in the sand, the world does not stop spinning.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 PM on 06/02/2009

And as for human action being able to make massive changes I offer two examples:

1) The efforts to reduce CFC emissions has finally stopped the growth of the ozone hole.
2) All the oxygen in our atmosphere is biogenic in origin---much of it created by life forms with much less power and creativity than us---and it is now about 20% of the mass.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 AM on 06/05/2009

Come on!

You pseudo-environmentalists don't even realize that the next Inter-glacial period is only a FEW THOUSAND years away! Scientists already project that we will run OUT of carbon fossil fuels by that time!

This will remove the anthropic forcing part of the greenhouse equation!

In other words... everything you are doing about "global warming" (I despise the term "climate change"... the climate has BEEN changing for 4 billion years, and we're at lowest point of CO2 in the atmosphere ever since the Dinosaurs have been on the planet SHEESH you sheeple are annoying! Do some research!) But I digress... Everything you are doing about "warming" only delays the inevitable COLD SPELL we will have (You cannot stop the Earth's 10,000 yr cycles, nor try to offset them with what little fossil fuels we have) and so... in a few thousand years... man will look back at us and say DARNIT WHY DID THEY MAKE THINGS EVEN COLDER?!?!?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 06/01/2009
- sleeperd I'm a Fan of sleeperd 16 fans permalink

Alas - I fear you are not long for this website. You're attempting to introduce facts and logic to nitwits who are obviously swept up in their evangelical fervor.

They do not tolerate heresy. You will be set upon as an ill-informed, flat-earth, holocaust-denier who hates bunny rabbits and little children. They will flog you with their endless "scientific" proclamations even though most of them wouldn't know a scientific principle if it fell on their little weasel heads.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 PM on 06/01/2009
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should we address his facts?

CO2 has been peaked out over the last 650,000 years at 280ppm. Not until 150 years ago did it start to rise above this peak. It is now 50% higher. Dino time was millions of years ago, yes CO2 levels were much higher then, so was the average temperature, but it was also a much different world with a different climate, quite a bit more volcanoes, land masses were quite different, orbit was quite different.

Typical glaciations in the past 750,000 years have taken thousands of years to reach their maximum ice extent and thousands of years to withdraw. This is a pace that would be more adaptable to life. The predicted global warming effect by CO2 has a pace 10 or more times this rate.

It is this rate of change that the alarm is about. Already reports of the 6th mass extinction event are being made.

That is some of the research I have uncovered.

Would you like links:
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/eldredge2.html
http://www.mongabay.com/images/external/2005/co2_var.jpg
http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios101/historyoflife/sld002.htm
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/11/650000-years-of-greenhouse-gas-concentrations/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 AM on 06/02/2009

Even if what you're saying is true, and I'd like to see a link that has some data to prove it, things may get colder in a few thousand years. The question is, how will we deal with the 10's of millions of people that live on the coasts *now* who will be environmental refugees as sea levels rise. How will we feed a booming population while much of the arable land we use for agriculture today turns dry.

This is quite possibly the single most "miss the point" argument I've ever heard.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 AM on 06/02/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

The Milankovic cycles that describe the change in the earth's orbit around the sun and results in our age ices is usually in 100,000 year cycles, and not 10,000, as you say. Your post is filled with other misinformation. Why do all you science deniers always spout so much disinformation and think you are so knowledgeable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 PM on 06/02/2009
- Pookie2112 I'm a Fan of Pookie2112 3 fans permalink

When one belittles something, it's usually because one doesn't understand what it is they are belittling - that pretty much describes the GOP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:13 PM on 06/01/2009

It's sad to see so many follow the chanting crowd without thought.

But, you know....the crowd looks like it knows what it's doing......right over the cliff.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:42 PM on 06/01/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear Mr. President:
Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels the same as Reps. Henry Waxman absolutely wrong.
Al Gore as politician stopped discussion about GW in very begining, by slogan "DEBATE IS OVER". He is absolutely wrong in questions: "what is reason for GW", "What to do to slow impact of GW".
Please stop implementation of his very dangerous as for environment, as for economy advices.
In science opinion of one if he is disagree even with million of others more important till time when all his reasons will be completely discussed. "The earth is flat" not only for Tomas Friedman in science of GW.
We need as soon as possible to stop nonsense as Democrats, as Republican, as mass media opinion about GW.
Please invite me In White House or somewhere else and bring others 1000 scientists, who suport Al Gore(Democrat) or Senator Inhoffe (Republican) for discussion ASAP.
Michail Ioffe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:20 PM on 06/01/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Al Gore is not a scientist, but within scientific circles the debate is over. The debate usually winds down after awhile, or else we would still be discussing how the sun travels around the earth, which many on the right are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 PM on 06/02/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear Realpolitic, maybe debate is over about responsibilities of mankind for GW in this sun and earth position period. For me debate is not over about role of GHG in nature and what to do to reduce GHG, if they are reason.
I understand your remark about Al Gore, but he is a good writer, who as Vice President had many adviser -scientists.
Please pay attention to George Philander's book, Our Affair With El Niño, chapter 7:
1. Earth with no atmosphere-, the average surface temperature of earth would be -18�C (0�F), far colder than the average temperature of our earth, which is 15�C (59�F). Worse, the surface would cool down to around -160�C (-250�F) soon after the sun set.
2. Earth with a static atmosphere and no ocean. If the earth had a static atmosphere with the same gases it has now, but with little water vapor and no ocean, the average surface temperature of earth would be 67�C (153�F).
3. Earth with an atmosphere and ocean
Earth has an atmosphere and ocean, and the average surface temperature is a comfortable 15�C (59�F). Water evaporates from the ocean and land, cooling the surface. Winds carry the water vapor to other latitudes, and sometimes high up into the air, where heat is released when the vapor condenses to water. "
WATER EVAPORATES FROM THE OCEAN AND LAND, COOLING THE SURFACE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 06/03/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

mioffe, I guess what I am saying that is to you the debate may not be over about the role of greenhouse gases in the warming of the earth, but to scientists it is. We each accept these things at our own comfort level. Scientists discuss the role of ghg in warming the earth and put a certainty of 90% on this cause and effect relationship in the IPCC report. Even with the evaporation that is observed from oceans, temperatures are still increasing. Otherwise what is responsible for the increase? Thanks for your response.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 06/03/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Please read and think about scientific facts:
“Earth has an atmosphere and ocean, and the average surface temperature is a comfortable 15�C (59�F).
Water evaporates from the ocean and land, cooling the surface. Winds carry the water vapor to other latitudes, and sometimes high up into the air, where heat is released when the vapor condenses to water.
" On our earth total annual evapotranspiration amounts to approximately 505,000 km3 (121,000 cu mi) of water, 434,000 km3 (104,000 cu mi) of which evaporates from the oceans (85.94%).
Area of the earth: 148,940,000 km² land (29.2 %); 361,132,000 km² water (70.8 %)
Solar energy reflected back into space by thick clouds – 75-90%, thin clouds – 30-50%, water – 10%, grassy field - 10-30%, fresh snow – 75-95%.” Water absorbs more sun energy, than land. Since the Northern Hemisphere contains the greatest proportion of landmass and land heats more than oceans the Northern Hemisphere summer season causes significant increase in the global mean temperature”

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 PM on 06/03/2009

Your repetition of these points does not make them true. These effects are in the climate models. Yes, they have relatively high levels of uncertainty, but those uncertainties are also carried through the models and reported as uncertainties in the results. That's why, when average temperature increases are reported, it is always done so as a range.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:07 AM on 06/05/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear drklassen: "Your repetition of these points does not make them true."
Why in Hawaii, which closer to equator temperature is lower than inTexas?
When is hotter-directly under sun, or when clouds will cover sun radiation?
Why most people are going in summer time close to any water-lake, river,sea, oceans, etc?
If we will till land for production of food, what will happen with reflection of direct sun radiation? Are any models calculates these small differences, which occur all around the world?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 AM on 06/07/2009
- popart I'm a Fan of popart 13 fans permalink
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of course to do nothing now ( the GOP plan) will be to cause far more severe disruptions to the worlds economy at a point in the future...perhaps at a time when most of us who are alive now will be dead...and no longer need be concerned , especially republicans, whose political party will not even exist after 2012.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 06/01/2009

A tax by any other name is still a tax. This bill will export U.S. jobs to India and China which are building coal fired plants to produce cheap energy to bury us economically. All this to ward off a calamity 100 years into the future which is predicted by unreliable computer models. Anyone remember the "global cooling" scare of the 70s? I do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:33 PM on 06/01/2009

So do I, and I remember it was a couple of articles in news magazines and a few comments in news stories, all without the benefit of a massive scientific consensus. If you equate that child like example to the reality of modern climate science you are deluded.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 06/01/2009

And it even carried the caveat that it was only a preliminary result, that more research was needed to confirm it, and that it might be moot since all the CO2 we were pumping into the air might be an even stronger forcing function.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 AM on 06/05/2009

The Republican critique exemplifies the same kind of scientific ignorance and tragic shortsightedness that got us into this mess in the first place. I particularly love the dismissal of potential benefits that will be "decades distant". Yeah, the trouble is, if we don't act now to avert the consequences, the human species is going to be in a world of pain when that distant decade gets here.

We've stalled too long as it is. Time to simply ignore those who aren't going to be a part of the solution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 06/01/2009
- PuffDragon I'm a Fan of PuffDragon 9 fans permalink

It's easy to complain when you don't have any ideas of your own.

Why are India & China an issue for the Republicans??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 PM on 06/01/2009
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What climate are we trying to achieve with cap and trade. Is there a goal or an end state?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 PM on 06/01/2009

I would expect that the goal is to have as little change as possible, preferably far short of catastrophic change. No one expects the change already underway to somehow reset to some ideal past date.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:13 PM on 06/01/2009
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So the there is no defined result other than some unstated and unknown reduction in GHG to achieve an undefined and unknown "climate".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 AM on 06/02/2009
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