Flight 447 Search: Plane Seat Cushion, Debris Found In Path Air France Jet Took

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FEDERICO ESCHER and BRADLEY BROOKS | June 2, 2009 10:36 PM EST | AP

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A Brazilian Air Force helicopter prepares to land after taking part in the searching mission of the Air France flight 447, in Fernando de Noronha, 350 kms off the coast of Natal, in northeastern Brazil, Tuesday, June 2, 2009. The Air France airplane, carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, ran into a towering wall of thunderstorms and disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean late Sunday local time. Brazilian military pilots spotted early Tuesday an airplane seat, an orange buoy, and other debris and signs of fuel in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as they hunted for the jet. (AP Photo/Eraldo Peres)

FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil — An airplane seat, a fuel slick and pieces of white debris scattered over three miles of open ocean marked the site in the mid-Atlantic on Tuesday where Air France Flight 447 plunged to its doom, Brazil's defense minister said.

Brazilian military pilots spotted the wreckage, sad reminders bobbing on waves, in the ocean 400 miles (640 kilometers) northeast of these islands off Brazil's coast. The plane carrying 228 people vanished Sunday about four hours into its flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.

"I can confirm that the five kilometers of debris are those of the Air France plane," Defense Minister Nelson Jobim told reporters at a hushed news conference in Rio. He said no bodies had been found and there was no sign of life.

The effort to recover the debris and locate the all-important black box recorders, which emit signals for only 30 days, is expected to be exceedingly challenging.

"We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966 feet)," French Prime Minister Francois Fillon told lawmakers in parliament Tuesday.

Brazilian military pilots first spotted the floating debris early Tuesday in two areas about 35 miles (60 kilometers) apart, said Air Force spokesman Jorge Amaral. The area is not far off the flight path of Flight 447.

Jobim said the main debris field was found near where the initial signs were spotted.

The cause of the crash will not be known until the black boxes are recovered _ which could take days or weeks. But weather and aviation experts are focusing on the possibility of a collision with a brutal storm that sent winds of 100 mph (160 km/h) straight into the airliner's path.

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"The airplane was flying at 500 mph (800 km/h) northeast and the air is coming at them at 100 mph," said AccuWeather.com senior meteorologist Henry Margusity. "That probably started the process that ended up in some catastrophic failure of the airplane."

Towering Atlantic storms are common this time of year near the equator _ an area known as the intertropical convergence zone. "That's where the northeast trade winds meet the southeast trade winds _ it's the meeting place of the southern hemisphere and the northern hemisphere's weather," Margusity said.

But several veteran pilots of big airliners said it was extremely unlikely that Flight 447's crew intended to punch through a killer storm.

"Nobody in their right mind would ever go through a thunderstorm," said Tim Meldahl, a captain for a major U.S. airline who has flown internationally for 26 years, including more than 3,000 hours on the same A330 jetliner.

Pilots often work their way through bands of storms, watching for lightning flashing through clouds ahead and maneuvering around them, he said.

"They may have been sitting there thinking we can weave our way through this stuff," Meldahl said. "If they were trying to lace their way in and out of these things, they could have been caught by an updraft."

The same violent weather that might have led to the crash also could impede recovery efforts.

"Anyone who is going there to try to salvage this airplane within the next couple of months will have to deal with these big thunderstorms coming through on an almost daily basis," Margusity said. "You're talking about a monumental salvage effort."

Remotely controlled submersible crafts will have to be used to recover wreckage settling so far beneath the ocean's surface. France dispatched a research ship equipped with unmanned submarines that can explore as deeply as 19,600 feet (6,000 meters).

A U.S. Navy P-3C Orion surveillance plane _ which can fly low over the ocean for 12 hours at a time and has radar and sonar designed to track submarines underwater _ and a French AWACS radar plane are joining the operation.

France also has three military patrol aircraft flying over the central Atlantic, two commercial ships reached the floating debris, and Brazilian navy ships were en route.

Even at great underwater pressure, the black boxes "can survive indefinitely almost," said Bill Voss, president and CEO of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Virginia.

"They're very rugged and sophisticated, virtually indestructible."

Voss said he expected the recovery process to go quickly.

"I'm hoping they'll have stuff up in a month, if not just a few weeks," he said.

Rescuers were still scanning a vast sweep of ocean. If no survivors are found, it would be the world's worst civil aviation disaster since the November 2001 crash of an American Airlines jetliner in the New York City borough of Queens that killed 265 people.

Investigators have few clues to help explain what brought the Airbus A330 down. The crew made no distress call before the crash, but the plane's system sent an automatic message just before it disappeared, reporting lost cabin pressure and electrical failure.

Brazilian officials described a three-mile strip of wreckage, and have refused to draw any conclusions about what that pattern means. But Jack Casey, an aviation safety consultant in Washington, D.C., and former accident investigator for airlines and aircraft manufacturers, said it could indicate the Air France jetliner came apart before it hit the water.

A debris field of that length that is strung out in a rough line rather than in a circle, especially when an airplane comes down from a high altitude, "typically indicates it didn't come down in one piece," Casey said. "But it doesn't have to be a jillion little pieces. It can come down in three or four main pieces, and then the ocean drift takes care of the rest."

Casey cautioned it's possible, although less likely, that the plane did not break apart and spread of the debris field is due entirely to ocean drift. Since the disaster happened in violent weather, thunderstorms and deep ocean swells could have scattered the debris during the 32 hours that passed before it was spotted on Tuesday.

"The big thing to understand right now is we don't know," said Casey, chief operation officer of Safety Operating Systems LLB. "These are tough airplanes. They don't just come apart."

___

Associated Press writers Alan Clendenning in Sao Paulo; Marco Sibaja in Brasilia; Joan Lowy in Washington, D.C.; and Angela Charlton, Emma Vandore, Jean-Pierre Verges and Laurent Joan-Grange in Paris contributed to this report.

FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil — An airplane seat, a fuel slick and pieces of white debris scattered over three miles of open ocean marked the site in the mid-Atlantic on Tuesday where Air France F...
FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil — An airplane seat, a fuel slick and pieces of white debris scattered over three miles of open ocean marked the site in the mid-Atlantic on Tuesday where Air France F...
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- Zofomofo I'm a Fan of Zofomofo 49 fans permalink
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Don't be suprised when it comes out that this was a bomb.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 06/03/2009
- getsmart85 I'm a Fan of getsmart85 2 fans permalink

When did the Brazilian airline, that was going from France to Brazil, spot Air France 447 wreckage on fire? How could they see the wreckage if it was stormy? How did the Brazilian airline effectively navigate around the storms? Would a plane crashing into the ocean or breaking apart in mid air cause a fire? How can planes collecting meteorological information go directly into a hurricane and survive? What type of problem prevented the pilot from sending any message.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 AM on 06/03/2009
- otop016 I'm a Fan of otop016 2 fans permalink
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Yeah...it makes perfect sense to suggest something corrupt. I can't believe people aren't recognizing the most plausible cause...namely, Blackwater operatives working on a shadowy directive from the board of Haliburton, conspired to crash the plane so attention would be diverted from the war crimes committed by Bush and Cheney. Blackwater used a black ops ray gun to emit an electromagnetic pulse to render the electronics and flight envelope code useless.

Seriously 'getsmart85'...it was a horrible ACCIDENT. Bad things occasionally happen...there's no sinister plot here...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 AM on 06/03/2009
- AlexFTW I'm a Fan of AlexFTW 18 fans permalink
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I briefly saw a report that this plane was in a runway collision some time ago and then got "fixed". I never heard about it again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 AM on 06/03/2009
- Freesia2 I'm a Fan of Freesia2 340 fans permalink

I'm glad they found the plane. It doesn't help the families, it's just that they don't have to look out at a giant ocean wondering "where?". At least they know where some answers might be found and I imagine that in their grief any answer is something they desperately need.

Sincere sympathies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 AM on 06/03/2009
- LindyK I'm a Fan of LindyK 9 fans permalink

The only thing that seems a little strange, is it is customary to radio in if you are hitting bad weather of nay sort. You do it to alert not only the tower but also other pilots that may be flying in the area. And certainly they had to be aware of some bad weather if there was a storm, so why didn't they ever radio that in earlier?

Also, if they suddenly hit incredibly destructive turbulence, you don't go straight down in one second, there has to be some stress placed on the plane first. Wouldn't they at least take one second to push a button to radio the tower.

I know someone who has flown that route hundreds of times and he says they should know from other pilots in the area if that spot was experiencing turblulence that day. So far, of course, we have not heard what feedback the tower may have gotten from other planes in the area.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 06/03/2009

May God rest their souls

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:04 AM on 06/03/2009

I find it hard to understand how the pilots could have ran unexpectedly into a storm.Airbus planes including the A320 are equipped with a WXR-2100 MultiScan Hazard Weather Detection System This is a fully automatic radar. The MultiScan radar provides optimal weather detection from the nose of the aircraft to 320 nautical miles.In addition, this system features OverFlightâ„¢ protection, providing crews with the ability to avoid inadvertent penetration of thunderstorm tops. Additional information is available at www.rockwellcollins.com.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 PM on 06/02/2009

From the accounts published, it looks like there was strong headwinds involved. At that, they would be close to wing failure. They most likely experienced out of plane acceleration, which had the potential to kill the occupants, or render them unconcious. They fell for at least 15 minutes, depending on the condition of the airframe, during which their was no maydays. It was not terrorism, but is shocking all the same. These pilots knew they were in the poop, and din't turn back. Remember a film with Tom Hanks?? Same scenario, but more extreme.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 06/02/2009
- goozidi I'm a Fan of goozidi 2 fans permalink
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Powerful explosive ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 06/02/2009
- Clarabell I'm a Fan of Clarabell 68 fans permalink
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You better go hide under your bed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 06/02/2009
- javaz I'm a Fan of javaz 106 fans permalink
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It's good to remember at this time, between the normal bickering and mudslinging on this site, that there are hundreds of people grieving for lost loved ones.

My thoughts and prayers go out to every person who is suffering from loss and dealing with grief.
May you find peace.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 PM on 06/02/2009
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Beautifully stated. We should think of our soldiers and their families too. 25 of them died in May.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:31 PM on 06/02/2009
- echo I'm a Fan of echo permalink

You could come up with something a little less cliched and more genuine than "my thoughts and prayers go out..." Just saying.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 PM on 06/02/2009
- heal57 I'm a Fan of heal57 27 fans permalink

that's the point, you don't get it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 PM on 06/02/2009
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echo,my thoughts and prayers are with YOU for all your judgmental small-mindedness....and all the suffering souls. what a terrible tragedy.

peace be al, hts

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 06/02/2009
- roshni I'm a Fan of roshni 182 fans permalink

Absolutely.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 PM on 06/02/2009

Respectively, my (and many others who share their thoughts on this site) thoughts and prayers also go out to every person who is suffering from loss and dealing with grief relative to this incident.

If by the intellect, wisdom, experiences, and intuition that God has given us, compelling many of us to speak out on behalf of the good of, quality of life of, and improvement of the safety and general welfare of our fellow man through objective and well thought out ideas and proactive solutions, we are also in essence honoring both the loss of those wonderful innocent people in this tragedy and the living who could be saved in the future, or the quality of their life improved, by our insights and vision. What some may see as bickering and mudslinging, others may see as speaking out toward the good of their fellow man. To be silent, when one may have the God given capacity to be able to possibly influence positive change for the good and benefit of all, would IMO be the real tragedy.

I firmly believe in this wonderful site that Arianna has created- a place in which many whose names and faces may never be in the media or public eye, can freely share their thoughts, ideas, and wisdom about how we can together create positive change in our world, for the good of all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 PM on 06/02/2009

I appreciate the sentiment that discussion amongst people is a positive, but I just want to say individuals are responsible for their own intellect, wisdom, and experiences, they didn't get it from some mythological fictional supernatural entity. This is something to be proud of.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 PM on 06/02/2009
- Zofomofo I'm a Fan of Zofomofo 49 fans permalink
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God? Where was God?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 06/03/2009
- frantaylor I'm a Fan of frantaylor 22 fans permalink

Planes go down for the darndest reasons.

One of the most tragic was a classic dual failure. The plane had two engines and the wires to the oil pressure lights were crossed. The other failure was that a mechanic stripped out the oil drain plug on one engine. The drain plug fell out just after takeoff and all the oil drained out of one engine. The oil pressure light came on in the cockpit and the captain shut down the engine, knowing that he could easily land the plane with one engine. The problem was, he shut down the good engine and tried to fly with the bad one. Soon the bad one died. By the time the captain figured out what had happened, it was too late and the plane crashed.

There are a lof of engineers at Boeing who feel really terrible about that accident. Afterwards they instituted a comprehensive review plan for all wiring harnesses so that this sort of thing would never happen again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:06 PM on 06/02/2009
- Zofomofo I'm a Fan of Zofomofo 49 fans permalink
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Planes go down for the darndest reasons

Isn't that a TV show?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:51 PM on 06/03/2009
- DanmaxKL I'm a Fan of DanmaxKL 8 fans permalink
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Everytime I hear of a commercial airliner crash,it brings it home as to just how vulnerable we are when flying. It's not as if we can say to the Pilot "hey,could you stop, I want to get off". I don't believe in co incidences so in that regard it is truobling to hear of Air France's abysmal safety record. It has had one accident or near accident every few years since the nineties including test flight crash, the corncorde in Paris,the catastrophe in Toronto, a near miss in Port Harcourt and now this.... It makes you wonder and just to think I flew them a few months ago from Singapore to Paris..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:49 PM on 06/02/2009
- bexe I'm a Fan of bexe permalink

This has been baffling me for sometime. Why are we still using black boxes to store telemetry?
Formula 1 has been transmitting mechanical telemetry instantaneously from race track to factories half way around the globe for years.
Use the same technology for god's sake and transmit all this info to a land-based server where all the info can be retrieved without heart-stopping and needle-in-the-haystack searches and dangerous deep ocean salvaging procedures.
We should be able to track every single aircraft and know where to find them should they disappear like this one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:23 PM on 06/02/2009
- Big0725 I'm a Fan of Big0725 23 fans permalink
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Physics will deny this being done. Any type of real-time data acquisition devices that far out to sea would have to be sent via satellite, and not many companies will want to pay for the satellite transponder time to recoup this information.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:39 PM on 06/02/2009
- Uvula I'm a Fan of Uvula 2 fans permalink
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You're 100% correct - everything that happened on that airplane up to the point in which it came apart should have been transmitted through a satellite to a land-based server so authorities know immediately what happened and where so that they could respond without delay.

With so much money being spent on war and the military-industrial complex (which also drives up consumer prices as supply begins to diminish), there are scores of cuts that have to be made to things that would be extraordinarily beneficial to all of us if they were to be properly funded. As the airlines weather these major economic storms, they fail to invest in new safety-related technology that could ultimately save the lives of thousands of people. Even if all or part of these costs have to be passed on to the consumer, so be it. Safety should never be compromised because it may cost me an additional $20 every time I fly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 PM on 06/02/2009
- frantaylor I'm a Fan of frantaylor 22 fans permalink

That is all well and good but there is no point to all these telemetry costs because there is no way to get to a plane in the middle of the ocean to rescue it before it goes down. It would just be all the more tragic to see it happen in real time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 06/02/2009

I agree bexe.
Air France supposedly received (as reported) approximately ten or more automated maintenance messages (via ACARS) before the apparent loss of this aircraft. Especially on transoceanic flights operating under inertial navigation outside of a radar environment, why are the critical flight performance variables, latitude/longitude, altitude, etc. not integrated from the INS and flight data systems into those ACARS data streams and received/stored at the airline dispatcher/maintenance facility real time, constantly pinpointing the location of their aircraft, especially those that may be in trouble.

It’s hard for me to believe that in 2009, forty some years after landing on the moon that we don’t seem to currently have the technology to specifically know in real time at a ground station the exact location of aircraft transiting the Atlantic or Pacific (until GPS technology is fully implemented). Instead we seem to rely on locating the ELT (emergency locator transmitter) at the bottom of the ocean and doing oceanic searches covering thousands of square miles if something goes wrong. If there were survivors how long would it take to get to them with this IMO current archaic method of emergency location? We still seem to be using decades old technology to locate aircraft in trouble over the oceans- in 2009!

And if it’s a satellite availabililty/bandwidth/financial issue, then use some of those trillions of bailout/infrastructure improvement $ to update the overall civil aviation system, as so many have recommended.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 PM on 06/02/2009
- RTIII I'm a Fan of RTIII 93 fans permalink

Actually, the cost of just ONE search and rescue mission like this would be larger than the development costs of such a system - and, probably also larger than a year's operating budget for the entire transoceanic aircraft fleet. As noted in the article, there's already a successful automated data flow - it only needs to send lat / long data every minute or two - or even once every 5 minutes would perhaps be enough, along with adding such data to all other messages sent...
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 06/02/2009

All this talk regarding seasoned pilots possibly having flown into a dangerous storm system is creating unwarranted flying fears. There is no objective evidence currently that the pilots (three of them- Captain, FO, and Reserve on board, with a 58 yr. old Captain with 11,000 hours of flight time-certainly not a rookie) flew into or dangerously close to those storms. IMO three seasoned pilots in that plane would not have made a decision to fly into a known high intensity, dangerous thunderstorm system painted on their onboard weather radar as part of an ITCV weather system, unless of course their weather radar and INS were not properly functioning (and it was night time). Again, Federal aviation regulations have serious requirements for all pilots regarding thunderstorm avoidance. Just a few:
- AVOID by at least 20 miles any thunderstorm identified as severe or giving an intense radar echo.
- CLEAR the top of a known or suspected thunderstorm by at least 1000 ft, assuming the aircraft ceiling limit can accommodate going over it.
-CIRCUMNAVIGATE the entire area if the (thunderstorm) area has 60% or more coverage
- Regard as extremely hazardous any thunderstorm with cloud tops over 35000 ft. whether visually sighted or by weather radar.

I don’t buy a weather caused scenario with three pilots including an 11,000 flight hour Captain on that plane. IMO something else, possibly multiple mechanical/electrical issues of precipitous evolution may have occurred that were difficult for 3 experienced pilots to expediently resolve.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:35 PM on 06/02/2009
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WHat if the pilot at the controls, just had a heart attack or stroke & died...at the same time, as disastrous, weather conditons wind, lightening, happened......causing just enough delay to allow disaster, before the other 2 coold take control?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 AM on 06/03/2009
- edva I'm a Fan of edva 49 fans permalink

Unfortunately, even if the black box is found, and that's a big "if", it is far from certain that it will reveal the true cause. We may never know. We obviously don't know yet. A real tragedy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:22 PM on 06/02/2009
- whognu I'm a Fan of whognu 6 fans permalink

What a terrible tragedy. My thoughts and condolences to all concerned. Heart-breaking.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:20 PM on 06/02/2009
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