15 more bodies found in Atlantic Air France crash

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MARCO SIBAJA and ALAN CLENDENNING | June 7, 2009 11:47 PM EST | AP

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Brazil's Air Force official Henry Munhoz, shows a graphic of the area where bodies from the Air France 447 flight have been recovered during a press conference in Recife, northeastern Brazil, Sunday, June 7, 2009. Fifteen more bodies were found Sunday in the ocean about 45 miles (70 kilometers) from where the Air France jet sent out messages signaling electrical failures and loss of cabin pressure, bringing the total number of bodies plucked from the water to seventeen, Brazil's military said. (AP Photo/Ricardo Moraes)

RECIFE, Brazil — Search ships methodically worked through debris from a doomed Air France jet Sunday, recovering 15 more bodies near the spot where the Airbus A330 is believed to have gone down a week ago.

Two bodies were recovered Saturday, and Brazilian and French ships picked up the others on Sunday after pilots participating in a grid search reported additional sightings. The bodies have been found in an area about 45 miles (70 kilometers) from where the jet sent out messages signaling electrical failures and loss of cabin pressure.

"We're navigating through a sea of debris," Brazilian Navy Capt. Giucemar Tabosa Cardoso said.

Brazil's military was not releasing detailed information about bodies or debris that have been spotted from the air but not taken aboard ships, after it was criticized last week for mistakenly identifying sea trash as a cargo pallet from the plane.

Flight 447 disappeared and likely broke up in midair in turbulent weather May 31 during a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people aboard _ all now presumed dead.

The investigation is increasingly focused on whether external instruments on the Airbus A330 may have iced over, confusing speed sensors and leading computers to set the plane's speed too fast or slow _ a potentially deadly mistake.

The French agency investigating the disaster said airspeed instruments on the plane had not been replaced as the maker had recommended, but cautioned that it was too early to draw conclusions about what role that may have played in the crash.

The agency, BEA, said the plane received inconsistent airspeed readings from different instruments as it struggled in a massive thunderstorm.

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France is leading the investigation into the cause and will try to recover the plane's black box data and voice recorders, which could reveal why the jet crashed. Brazilian officials are focusing solely on the recovery of victims and plane wreckage.

In Brazil, Air Force Col. Henry Munhoz said nine bodies have been recovered by Brazilian authorities: four men, four women and one that was impossible to identify by gender. He said he did not have information about the genders of the eight bodies recovered by French military helicopters that were transferred to a French ship.

The search is focusing on several hundred square miles (square kilometers) roughly 400 miles (640 kilometers) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands off Brazil's northern coast _ where Air France Flight 447 emitted its last signals.

Munhoz and Cardoso declined comment on the condition of the recovered bodies, saying that information would be too emotionally painful for relatives.

Authorities also announced that searchers spotted two airplane seats, debris with Air France's logo, and recovered dozens of structural components from the plane. They had already recovered jet wing fragments.

Munhoz said there is "no more doubt" that the wreckage is from Flight 447.

Hundreds of personal items belonging to the passengers have been recovered, but Munhoz said authorities would not immediately identify them. Relatives of the victims were devastated by an announcement Saturday that a laptop computer and briefcase containing a plane ticket had been found.

"We don't want to cause them more suffering," Munhoz said.

The bodies and plane wreckage were being transported by Brazilian and French ships and should arrive Tuesday at the Fernando de Noronha islands, where the military has set up a staging post for the search operation. From there, remains and debris will be taken to the northeastern coastal city of Recife for identification.

Munhoz would not say Sunday how far apart the bodies had been found. He referred questions to French authorities on whether the locations of the bodies could help determine whether the plane broke up in the air.

Meanwhile, friends and family remembered geologist Michael Prince Harris and his wife, Anne Debaillon Harris _ the only U.S. citizens on the plane _ in a memorial service Sunday in Lafayette, Louisiana.

The couple had lived in Lafayette before moving to Houston and then Brazil.

The Pentagon has said there are no signs of terrorism. Brazil's defense minister said the possibility was never considered. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner agreed that there is no evidence supporting a "terrorism theory," but said "we cannot discard that for now."

The U.S. Navy is sending two high-tech devices to French ships that will help them locate the black boxes, Pentagon spokesman Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey Gordon said Sunday.

The Towed Pinger Locators, which can detect emergency beacons to a depth of 20,000 feet (6,100 meters), are being flown to Brazil on Monday with a U.S. Navy team.

The team will deliver the locators to two French tugs that will use them to listen for transmissions from the black box.

France has appointed Foreign Ministry official Pierre-Jean Vandoorne to act as ambassador to families of the crash victims, the French prime minister's office said in a statement Sunday.

___

Marco Sibaja reported from Recife and Alan Clendenning from Sao Paulo. AP Writers Emma Vandore and Greg Keller in Paris, Stan Lehman in Sao Paulo, and David McFadden in Puerto Rico contributed to this report.

RECIFE, Brazil — Search ships methodically worked through debris from a doomed Air France jet Sunday, recovering 15 more bodies near the spot where the Airbus A330 is believed to have gone down ...
RECIFE, Brazil — Search ships methodically worked through debris from a doomed Air France jet Sunday, recovering 15 more bodies near the spot where the Airbus A330 is believed to have gone down ...
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- mishte I'm a Fan of mishte 6 fans permalink

Given the evidence of the numerous automatic warning data sent - and given that one of these warnings related to loss of cabin pressure... is it impossible to surmise that the pilot/nav crew,etc. may have been [b]unconscious[/b], due to loss of cabin pressure (loss of oxygen), and therefor unable to respond to, circumvent or control any corrective measures?

Doesn't the known time-line and data of such - glean information either towards or against such a theory?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 06/07/2009

It’s not the intention of many of us to be argumentative. But professionals need to plead this case for those precious 228 innocent people who lost their lives, and for their loved ones left behind, so that whatever may have caused this incident is prevented from happening again.

There seems to have been far too much talk, news discussion, etc. regarding these pilots possibly having flown “into” a dangerous weather system, and maybe continuing on their filed flight plan when facing those conditions. This discussion, primarily weather only focused, that seemed to occupy the first several days after this incident seems to have left many passengers very nervous about flying as a result.

Professional pilots are constrained by Federal regulations, along with vast meteorological and aviation education/training regarding avoiding dangerous weather and diverting around same, and historically wouldn’t enter such conditions unless of course aircraft multiple technical failures may have taken away their aviation “tools” to avoid them.

Never forget that those AF pilots also likely had wives, children, mothers and fathers, and other loved ones to come home to at the end of their flight (career) responsibilities just like everyone else. They don’t take risks in the cockpit relative to their passenger’s livelihood, and their own livelihood as well. IMO whatever could have been done in that cockpit to save those 216 passengers and 12 crew IMO would have been done to the absolute best of their ability.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 06/07/2009
- mishte I'm a Fan of mishte 6 fans permalink

Thank you - not only for your logical sensibilities, but more importantly, for your care and concern for the families who now have permanent trauma as part of their lives - for reasons no one can justify, much less explain.

My heart goes out to you and everyone with a loved one lost in this trauma - and I think it's worth all our whiles to support the crews who may give peace to those family members who are still in the limbo of having no answers... hugs to you...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 PM on 06/07/2009
- escribacat I'm a Fan of escribacat 285 fans permalink
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I have been on many, many airplanes and I have never heard that one could "break up in midair in turbulent weather." WTF does that mean?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 PM on 06/07/2009

An airplane crashes while flying in an EXTREME thunderstorm - did you read the speed of those updrafts? This is hardly a case to look at terrorism - it'd be one in a billion that it just happens to be this plane the terrorists find a way to get a bomb onto, and it just happens to be set to go off at the same time as they are flying through a horrible extreme storm and are having lots of bad instrument readings.

I'm glad they're getting some bodies - it'll help all of the families to be sure the plane did crash there, to know for sure what happened, even if how is going to take the usual several months to piece together, even if they do manage to get the black box.

Fortunately, finding wreckage, bodies that float isn't as hard as it normally would be over that kind of space - without mountains, roads, buildings, an airplane or hilicopter can see quite a bit of space, spot anything floating. But for the black boxes, the bulk of the wreckage - it's going to be a huge search through the mountains and silt on the ocean floor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:59 PM on 06/07/2009

if it turns out that the plane's airspeed indicators were the problem, i think its feasible that the autopilot system altering the speed to maintain the set cruising speed, combined with turbulence and severe weather would be enough to put the plane in an unrecoverable dive and enough stress to start breaking it apart. everrything is just speculation because they were out of communication range, so hopefully they can recover the black boxes in time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 PM on 06/07/2009
- wilinot I'm a Fan of wilinot 3 fans permalink

I know their families will feel some relief at having a body to bury. Sounds macabre but you really sometimes need the body for the reality to sink in.
These bodies must be floating then?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:26 PM on 06/07/2009

eaten, maybe?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 06/07/2009
- Yve72 I'm a Fan of Yve72 8 fans permalink
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if they were able to recover everyone?
At this rate, its possible many will be found.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 06/07/2009
- Avanti2 I'm a Fan of Avanti2 6 fans permalink

After a couple of days submerged bodies float to the surface from gas generated from internal decomposition.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 06/07/2009
- drkazmd65 I'm a Fan of drkazmd65 51 fans permalink
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My condolences to all of their family and to their friends. I can only imagine how they have felt over the last week.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 06/07/2009
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More bodies were found...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 06/07/2009
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Just sad

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:24 PM on 06/07/2009
- zetacplus I'm a Fan of zetacplus 12 fans permalink
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Horrifying to say the least. I just hope their passing was quick and painless. I couldn't even imagine the nightmare of being in that plane as it begins to break apart. Wouldn't they have lost consciousness fairly quickly due to the lack of oxygen? If not, I hope they all went into shock and lost consciousness when they realized what was happening. How terrifying to be falling knowing you are about to die. My heart goes out to their families.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:42 PM on 06/07/2009
- RachelMc I'm a Fan of RachelMc 68 fans permalink
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so sad

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 06/07/2009
- FZliveson I'm a Fan of FZliveson 78 fans permalink
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I find it very interesting that they give no parameters for the possibilities from the errant pitot tubes.
The article says: "The investigation is increasingly focused on whether external instruments on the Airbus A330 may have iced over, confusing speed sensors and leading computers to set the plane's speed too fast or slow _ a potentially deadly mistake."

I am not a commercial pilot but flew in the military and have read a lot about air disasters.
If the plane flies too slow, it descends and the crew notice and make corrections.
If the plane flies too fast, the it climbs and the crew notice and make corrections.
I don not believe the plane could fly so fast it would break-up unless it went into a steep nose-down angle of attack. And I believe that a stall, from flying too slowly could be corrected by the crew and there would have been warnings. The only thing that is really unclear is if the Fly-by-wire controls of the Airbus would completely override manual take-over and force the plane into a dive, which could over-stress the airframe....Anyone know? Thanks

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 06/07/2009

The 14th ACARS message showed a switch to Alternate Law. That would have allowed the pilots to effect whatever control inputs that they wanted, simply put.

If you have flying experience as a pilot in the military, you can find the leaked ACARS messages on the web and figure them out. Messages 2 and 3 show flags on both the Captain's and the First Officer's Flight Directors. While not "off," the FDs would have been hard to interpret.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:02 PM on 06/07/2009
- GypsyRose I'm a Fan of GypsyRose 43 fans permalink

You know your stuff, man, as I have previously stated on another thread.

Curious though, in your opinion, was the autopilot "on" or "off" as some have stated?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 06/07/2009
- wadenelson1 I'm a Fan of wadenelson1 224 fans permalink
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Thanks for the insight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:30 PM on 06/07/2009
- mishte I'm a Fan of mishte 6 fans permalink

but what if they were unconscious? From what I've read, all reports were automatic computer generated.... and from reading pilot forums, it seems incredible that a pilot would not be able to take control (or perhaps I misunderstand).... but the alert concerning loss of cabin pressure - could that not offer a description of a situation where the crew were incapacitated to a degree where they could not perform or react to normal duties?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 PM on 06/07/2009
- FZliveson I'm a Fan of FZliveson 78 fans permalink
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AirVice.....thanks for your text, but you really did not answer the question or give where the data you refer to is. Do you know about the Fly-by-wire override capabilities?
Thanks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 AM on 06/08/2009
- Ping I'm a Fan of Ping 63 fans permalink

According to aviation experts at 35,000 ft the Airbus 330 is at the limit of its performance envelope.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:16 PM on 06/07/2009
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That may be but not every system is limited at the same limit. Aircraft have redundancy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:32 PM on 06/07/2009
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I am not a pilot either. At this point any scenario is speculative. Reportedly, the plane lost function of electronic systems. It's not known when the emergency generator or battery kicked in.

One possibility of a stall doesn't involve a horizontal speed change but sudden changes in vertical position by wind shear and other changes in pressure. Airbus claims this is a lightening proof aircraft but maybe, just maybe there was a short in the circuit and lightening caused a sufficiently destructive current that burned out electronic components.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 PM on 06/07/2009
- GypsyRose I'm a Fan of GypsyRose 43 fans permalink

Hey Sharp, just tell me one thing, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about this. Do you think the aircraft disintegrated in-flight, or upon the crash to the sea? It makes a difference, for some strange reason, i.e., fear.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:53 PM on 06/07/2009
- GypsyRose I'm a Fan of GypsyRose 43 fans permalink

FYI, I just responded to you but it went pending...I'll re-try.

You seem to be knowledgeable about these things so I ask, do you think the aircraft disinte.grated in-flight or did it c.rash into the sea straight up? I know it's a strange question, but I think it matters especially in light of the fact that bodies were found. That still astounds me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 PM on 06/07/2009
- Yves Papa I'm a Fan of Yves Papa 14 fans permalink

I don't like Airbus. As an engineer, I would say that they don't design for extreme conditions, leaving the pilots helpless when problems happen.

A few years ago, the tail broke off a airbus above new york, and it crashed in a residential area. The design was not tested for the flight conditions that plane encountered. They say that the pilot was swinging the rudder too violently - come on - the rudder should have been sturdy enough to withstand a terrorist trying to break it. And in addition, I don't think it was the pilot, but the computer which was trying to stabilize the plane in the turbulence.
These pitot tubes that do freeze over? The Airbus engineers did not think about that?
The computer system that suddenly takes drastic and dangerous measures based on bad information - why doesn't it issue an alarm to the pilot before sending the plane in a nosedive?
The "Fly by wire" system that is vulnerable to power failure? I hope that at least there is a last resort, simple and sturdy, non-computer, wire link from the pilot's controls to the engines and the motors that actuate the flying surfaces.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:20 PM on 06/07/2009
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I have been wondering about pitot heat-perhaps ice or hail overwhelmed the pitot's ability to stay patent.

It's my understanding that there is a fail-safe mode for controlling the aircraft when the computer gives up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 PM on 06/07/2009

Floatin' is startin'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:37 PM on 06/07/2009

The complete text of the ACARS messages were posted to a pilots' website yesterday and, no doubt, are all over the web by now. It may not be very readable to a non-pilot but the sum of it is that the situation was much like that scene in "Apollo 13" when everything goes wrong at once.

The first failure was the rudder travel limiter followed by flags on the Captain's and First Officer's flight directors. This would have made information on the FD very difficult to interpret.

There is nothing in the ACARS messages to indicate a bomb, fire or other sabotage in any form.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 PM on 06/07/2009
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AirViceMar­shalPark-D­o they have peanut gauges on the Airbus? This is starting to remind me of the B737 that broke up over the jungle a few years back-on a moonless night two pilots followed one bad gyro without looking at the peanuts and broke the plane up in mid-air. Spatial orientation may have also been a factor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 PM on 06/07/2009
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"Four more bodies were found Sunday bobbing in the ocean near the spot where an Air France jet is believed to have crashed..."

"Bobbing?" Given the circumstances, that's a rather light-hearted verb choice, wouldn't you say?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 06/07/2009
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At least the story didn't say "bobbing merrily".... (Personally, I think it's atrociously written, with a lot of BS quotes by officials who obviously know nothing, or, if they do know something, aren't saying it.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 PM on 06/07/2009
- kkg58 I'm a Fan of kkg58 2 fans permalink

yeah -- the other verb that bugged me was when they said the bodies were "plucked" from the ocean --- sheesh ... recovered, were brought on board -- but Plucked?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 PM on 06/07/2009
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You are right, of course-strange and insensitive choice of words.

On Crooks and Liars, they have a 59 minute audio of real journalists covering D-Day on the radio. It will surprise many how much better they were at using words than the current group.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 06/07/2009
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I'm not a believer, but how come all these other non-believers feel they must waste their time and ours attacking people for sending heartfelt condolences and calling upon God. So you don't believe in God, fine, don't be such jerks. Don't you have anything better to do - seriously? You're giving us non-believers a bad rap.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 06/07/2009
- rdiaz921 I'm a Fan of rdiaz921 9 fans permalink
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:)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:13 PM on 06/07/2009

It just seems so ludicrous to say things like "God bless" regarding people who just died in a random and horrific plane crash. It's beyond silly. If God had blessed them, they wouldn't have been killed. There's nobody to bless now, they're gone. It's just such a meaningless sentiment.

And this is an internet blog comments section, people can vent here. It's anonymous. I'm sure nobody would say these remarks in real life.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out the inherent absurdity involved in these God remarks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:16 PM on 06/07/2009
- Yve72 I'm a Fan of Yve72 8 fans permalink
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It is the spirit/soul of the deceased that's being blessed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 PM on 06/07/2009
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Yeah, I realize it's an "internet blog comments section." Does that make it somehow okay that people are being heartless. Why do they need to vent in this context. Anonymity seems to turn people into such jerks.

Yeah, there IS something wrong with pointing out the absurdity in the God comments in relation to people expressing condolences. There is. While it makes me crazy as hell to hear people say things like "oh, God saved me from this fate by letting me miss this flight." I would say that's the narcissistic approach to religion and I could hit the roof every time I hear that, but when someone is using a simple common phrase like "God bless" then leave them alone - they're just trying to be kind. It's not like you have all the answers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 PM on 06/07/2009
- slipthalo I'm a Fan of slipthalo 6 fans permalink
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Is amazing isn't it? Believer or non-believer, you can feel sorrow and offer condolences.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:02 PM on 06/07/2009
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I agree. I'm also a non-believer, but I show respect for other people's religion or belief.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 06/07/2009
- drkazmd65 I'm a Fan of drkazmd65 51 fans permalink
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One doesn't need to belive in 'a God' to feel condolences for the families & friends of these people.

*note - am a practicing Wiccan myself,... and may the Goddess accept them, no matter what their own religious beliefs were*

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:07 PM on 06/07/2009
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