Senate GOPers: Loosen Gun Laws To Defend Gay Rights

Washington Independent:

One month after successfully tucking an amendment into the credit card reform bill that expanded gun rights, a small number of Senate Republicans are looking at the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act as another chance to score a victory for the Second Amendment. The possible plan -- to add an amendment that would allow gun owners to carry their weapons from one state to another in accordance with concealed carry laws. The possible rationale -- to defend gay rights.

Read the whole story: Washington Independent

Comments

[jmpurser]

Is the entire GOP in some sort of macabre scavenger hunt to find the best method to prove to the rest of the nation that they are completely insane?

[onepotatotwopotato]

Independent Gay Forum
Gun Rights Are Gay Rights:
by Dale Carpenter
First appeared in the Bay Area Reporter on February 14, 2008
http://www.indegayforum.org/topics/show/31456.html

[Cosmic-Zantor]

The rest of the nation already knows they're insane. They've just stopped pretending at this point.

It's good for the rest of us though. They're going to lose even more influence in 2010 and 2012. These nutcases are on the way out the door.

[JulieSA]

If the Dems push any gun control legislation, they'll be out the door in the next election. They know that, too, although AG Holder seems to have trouble remembering that.

[onepotatotwopotato]

Gays Rights, Gun Rights, Gay Nationalism.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x15430

[AliaBlack]

Serious question here for pro-gun advocates. Why is there such a backlash about requiring gun owners to take a basic course in gun safety? My sister and her husband (an army reservist who served in Afghanistan last year) both own guns. I don't, but I went with friends when I was in Vegas to a Frontsight gun safety course (which was excellent, btw!). (My ex is a cop - we had guns in the house and I didn't want to be ignorant.)

Yes, guns don't kill people, people kill people and all that. But if that is the 'mantra', and us being such a safety conscious society (helmets for everything, seatbelts, etc.) why is requiring people who purchase guns to show they know how to use them safely such a controversial issue? We license drivers (yes, I know, not a constitutional right, but a con. right doesn't require us to be stupid about a common sense issue. We have free speech, but there are limits there, too. (Fire in movie theater))

I just don't see why basic safety (or continued complaints about wait periods for ID checks) is such a problem. Why does safety and common sense take a back seat? What's wrong with wanting people who buy guns to know how to use the things safely and responsibly? (And why do civilians need Uzis and other assault weapons? But that's another topic for another day.)

[chedar]

In my state you have to take a gun saftey course to get a conceal carry permit, but do not have to take one to simply purchase.

You won't here any grumbling out of me over a safety course. I strongly urge people to not only learn saftey, but also how to be proficient as well.

It's just a tool, nothing more, nothing less, and like all other tools, needs to be treated with respect and skills need to be developed to use it.

[AliaBlack]

Yeah, but strongly urging and having a law requiring it are two different things. The problem isn't with the people who treat it with respect. It's with the people who don't.

[springsm]

And THAT is one of the biggest fantasies of all. False security.

[Tom95134]

Don't be confused. This is not a gun ownership issue. This is some (shall I say, "Whacko"?) group advocating a federal law that would allow a person that has a concealed weapons permit in one state to carry it across state lines into another state. Concealed weapons permits are state issued and once you cross the state line are currently invalid. Generally, this is because the concealed/carry laws vary widely from state to state.

I have owned many guns (not now) but when you carry a concealed weapon you better be ready to use it (if for nothing other than to make sure it doesn't fall into the hands of another person) and if you use it you better be mentally prepared to kill the person you are using it against.

The GOP is mixing in the gay/lesbian issue just to confuse things and because they see some opportunity to attach this bad law to the Matthew Sheppard bill.

[JulieSA]

They are not whacko. The Pink Pistols have been around for years, and I've admired them for years.

"Concealed weapons permits are state issued and once you cross the state line are currently invalid."

That's not true. A lot of the states already have mutual reciprocity agreements. My TX license is good in 28 other states.

[AliaBlack]

I know it's not an ownership issue. My comment was slightly OT, but since there are so many pro-2nd Amendment people on the thread, I figured I'd ask for some insight from their perspective.

I'm generally pro-gun in the sense that I believe people should (and do) have the right to own them, but my concerns are about the lack of safety regulations and the irresponsibility of those who buy them and don't know how to use them properly. Or who keep them in the house and don't teach their children gun safety, responsibility and respect for them. Many accidental shootings are caused by ignorance, and particularly when it comes to children, they're curious and don't realize the seriousness because their parents simply tell them it's taboo and don't teach them WHY it's dangerous and not a toy. Safety regulation is always blocked or diminished at every turn.

As for the concealed/carry issue, my concerns are with how such permits are granted, which also vary from state to state. And that's the problem with this proposed law: Granting a blanket federal regulation (and requirement) governing conceal/carry that supersedes the State regulations takes away/negates States' rights of regulation. Ironic, considering the conservative mantra is anti-federal, pro-state.

Isn't it usually the radical groups (and certain wings of the NRA are extremely radical, too) who advocate these things?

[Deni]

I have to agree with you. We have several rifles and hand guns. My husband is a retired Army officer. I'm not a "gun" person, but my husband has taken me out and taught me how to shoot. We live in a very rural area, and I'm home alone frequently while he travels for work. If someone broke in and I called 911, depending on where in the county the sheriff's deputy happened to be at the time, it might be an hour or two before help arrived. So I'm happy I learned how to use a gun safely and I hope I never have to use one for more than target practice!

[GoldenBoy22]

"'why is requiring people who purchase guns to show they know how to use them safely such a controversial issue?"

Who will be setting the standards for requirements?
For me putting all your shots in a basketball size target at 25 yds might be reasonable .But for someone that is antigun they may think the standard is all shots in a baseball sized target,and if that doesn't disqualify enough people they can just tighten the standards.
Many who post here will not be satisfied until all guns are removed from civilian ownership.

"We license drivers "

Can you name any other Constitutional rights we need to qualify for or be licensed to exercise?

[AliaBlack]

Actually, yes. Freedom of Assembly. We regulate where and when in certain instances by requiring permits to assemble or protest at certain locations, like parks. There are also laws to prohibit people standing on my front lawn (private property) to protest as opposed to standing in the public street. Not quite the same, obviously, but the point is that we do regulate.

As for who would be setting the standards, how are any standards set? We do have many professionals who I'm sure would be happy to contribute (including the people who run Frontsight, the organization I mentioned earlier.) Most people who own guns will never fire them outside of a gun range (or sporting competition or hunting or similar setting. The sad truth is that there is a significant percentage of people who purchase guns for "protection" or safety reasons (or live with someone who owns them), yet they're afraid of them, don't respect them, and never bother to learn more than how to insert bullets/a clip and pull the trigger.

Ignore the extremists - guns will never be removed from civilian ownership, and they shouldn't be (with the exception, in my opinion, of assault weapons and the like. Handguns and rifles are a different story) But gun safety requirements is not only a fair compromise, it's common sense.

[springsm]

I don't believe any stretch of the imagination would call drivers part of the constitution. Maybe listening to the scholars who have studied this amendment would take care of the proliferation of guns. BUT that would take some calm breathing around the issue and we know that the gunnuts will lose all masculinity if their guns are quieted.

[noaxe397]

You need to register to vote. I realize that is not requiring a license or qualification but it is much easier to deny some one their right to vote than it is to deny them their right to own a gun, and I'm not talking here about convicted felons.

Any citizen can legally challenge the right of any other citizen to vote at the polling place. Republicans have elevated this to a fine art form to supress the vote. Imagine if someone stood at the door of a gun store and challenged to the store owner the right of someone to buy a gun because of, say, something they said or did in the past?

[judiNJ]

I agree. I had a pistol permit from the state of Massachusetts. Had to go to the police station to get my photo and finger prints taken and put on the permit. It was OK by me, I had to go down and get a drivers' license, too. Big Deal.

[Tom95134]

This is insane. Concealed/carry laws vary widely from state to state and a person cannot be expected to fully understand the laws of the state where you might have to use your concealed weapon. In any case, the instant you draw your weapon you have to be mentally prepared to KILL the person that is threatening you. And you have to make sure that the threat will be clearly understood by a jury as being life threatening and you are unable to simply "walk away" from the threat.

The GOP is doing everything it can to muddy the gay/lesbian issue.

[JulieSA]

My TX ch is good in 28 other states. You do have to learn where each state differs on locations where carrying is prohibited, but I am smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time, and there are many websites that compile this info to make it easier.

[springsm]

my gawd....ar­e these people afraid of everything that moves ...or doesn't. Good lord, lock the damn guns in the safe and leave them home. All this braggin about owning guns and being proficient and carrying ....good god. I assume you all think that you are as important as you think you are...bubb­as. It is true that those who allow this but don't believe in it in Congress are afraid for their jobs. How could they continue to leach off the taxpayer if the NRA went back to being a sensible rational organization full of rational, sensible, mature grownups.

[SouPro]

I think I'm as important as I think I am? Wow, that just might be Cartesian Monism.

Regardless, I assume you have a fire extinguisher and first aid kit in your house, and if you're even smarter, one in your car. It's a sensible thing to be prepared for the worst case scenarios that threaten your property and person. What makes it so profound to you to add a firearm to that list? Isn't a firearm, in "proficient" and knowledgeable hands an effective tool for defending life and property? (I suppose liberty as well in truly fantastic scenarios)

[LeftLeanWing]

One thing that goes underreported is the number of unsuccessful GayBashing attempts . One bad assumption often made is that most or all gay men are 'sissies'. That is not the case. I've seen potential gay bashing incidents where the perpetrators get the @sses kicked..

A friend of mine and I actually prevented one one night. We evened out the 3 to 1 advantage.

They forget that gay men are men and probably had to fight and defend themselves quite often while growing up..

The last thing you want to do is to get into a one-on-one with a 6 foot drag queen... The result would not be pretty. I remember decades ago, in my hometown, one beat up two cops after being harassed by them simply for existing. She got away.

[timberdoodle]

It's so refreshing to live in a Country where no one feels the need to carry guns for their own protection and hopefully sometime in the distant future every American can enjoy the same lifestyle without so much fear.

[Cosmic-Zantor]

I don't know if conservatives will ever overcome their obsession with violence and guns, but hopefully the government can restrict gun rights over time. The trend is in that direction.

America will catch up with Europe someday, but it might take a few decades. Conservatives always delay cultural progress in this country, but they never really stop it.

[onepotatotwopotato]

Why would any American want to restrict the Bill of Rights?

[JulieSA]

The trend is not in that direction, fortunately.

Government infringement of constitutional rights is not cultural progress. It's progress to serfdom.

[onepotatotwopotato]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- - - - - - Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

[Cosmic-Zantor]

Here's another quote from your hero:

"America is a mistake, a giant mistake." - Sigmund Freud

[Cosmic-Zantor]

Here's another one:

"Civilization began the first time an angry person cast a word instead of a rock." - Sigmund Freud

[JuergenHartl]

No matter how often you post it - Freud is soo outdated.
Weapons are considered a phallus symbol, so I guess people carrying a gun need it!

[Imago]

Check your source, oh thee of multiple pototoes; Freud didn't write that piece about guns.

Google it, my friend!

(And as someone who's actually studied his work, Papa Freud is still plenty relevant -- badly translated, not well understood in the US, and not without theoretical problems, but any number of his ideas have deeply shaped 20th C thought on society, psyche, and culture.)

[Rog49Thomas]

What did the good doctor say about folks obsessed with weapons?

[deeppeace]

They like the feel of a hard, slender object that fires every time you tell it to?

[TJCole]

This clearly violates the 14th Amendment as well as the 1964 Civil Rights Act...

As well as the Definition of Discrimination written simply by our great Justice William O. Douglas that being...

"Favoring one group over another...­!"

it is quite simply a Constitutional nightmare.­.and would lead to innumerable law suits by all sorts of sub groups...

[onepotatotwopotato]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- - - - - - Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

[Trittydi]

THAT is insane.
*

[onepotatotwopotato]

Hoplophobia is a personality disorder.

[foreffectivegovernment]

The Constitution days, "to bear arms", as "to carry".
Michelle Obama has "bare arms".

[BoyInBOYCOTT]

Don't confuse GOProud with having any benefits for gays/lesbians as their goal.
As an armed gay man, I have no problems having a weapon to protect myself or my family.
i see no need for an additional layer of gun rights to that purpose.

[JulieSA]

This bill would make it easier for you, and me, to protect our families when traveling. There's no reason not to pass it.

[Cosmic-Zantor]

Ethics?

[JuergenHartl]

Protect? HA HA HA. You and your family would just be more endangered.

[BoyInBOYCOTT]

Somebody who foolishly attacks my family or I on the road, I'll react, and figure out the legal niceties LATER.

[noaxe397]

This is the same argument GWB used in the 2000 debates with Al Gore when he (Bush) said there is no need for hate crimes legislation. That there shouldn't be an additional layer of punishment for a hate crime. "ALL crimes are hate crimes," Bush said in that debate. It is uncanny how Republicans can twist themselves into opportunistic pretzels on any issue. Why is government so big, unwieldy and confusing? Because Republicans wake up every day thinking of something else they don't like and need to pass some law or regulation on.

[lianmolive]

If the NRA really wants support from the gay community, they should support full equal rights for them. Without it, this pinkpistol thing is downright offensive.

Does anyone know the statistics of how many crimes were stopped by armed citizens (perpetuated against them personally) versus accidental deaths from gun ownership?

[chedar]

It's hard to tell - I have heard of studies that show it as low as 100,000 crimes prevented a year, to as high as 6 million a year.

The average looks to be around 1.6 million crimes a year as best I can tell.

[Steven Vasquez]

Fact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed. Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.
Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.

In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About 11 times as many children die from drowning.
Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year – the equivalent of almost three fully loaded Boeing 747 jet crashes per day – or about 286 times the rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same.

[lianmolive]

Ok, thks for statistics­... but my problem with including "children drowning" as a way to imply that gun ownership is not harmful as.... is like saying, "Well I need a gun to protect myself against someone who would carjack me because there are so many drunk drivers out there who might hit me."

Some say, well cars kill, baseball bats kill, pools kill.... but the underlying flaw to that argument is that none of those things were made with the intention to severely Damage a life.

[skippypicasso]

How many gun deaths would have occurred if no one owned guns?

[Steven Vasquez]

Many more, as seen in UK and Australia, where there is a gun ban. See criminals don't follow laws, only law abiding citizens. Homocide, rapes, armed burgularies, and break-ins go up because criminals know the victims are now armed.

[Coinyer101]

does this mean new Glocks for gay newlyweds?
do they each get one, or do they have to share?
do just guy gays get 'em, or do girl gays get 'em ,too?
why can't everyone just have a taser and be allowed to use it whenever ya want?
why can't we make gunplay fun, and only allow paintballs for shootin' stuff?
what kinda enjoyment can come out of shootin' sumthin'? if you want ta get rid of em that bad, wouldn't it be funner to use a stick or sumpthin'? heck, make it real excitin' and give them a stick, too. Gladiators!!!!!

wooh! that last bonghit was awesome...­....,

[LeCanadien]

There is no profit in peace.

[onepotatotwopotato]

No matter where you are, a Victim Disarmament Zone is a free killing zone. Responsible people remain armed to protect themselves, their loved ones, and their society. You wouldn't drive your automobile without first fastening your seat belt would you? You wouldn't ride a motorcycle without a helmet on either, would you? So why would you choose to go defenceless in a world which is, by definition, potentially dangerous?

[Cosmic-Zantor]

I don't know anybody who owns a gun. I guess everyone I know is irresponsible? Ridiculous.

The majority of Americans don't own guns. The majority of people in the world don't own guns.

[JulieSA]

I know all kinds of people, with all kinds of points of view, from all walks of life. Just because you have a restricted social circle doesn't mean you can restrict my rights.

[JuergenHartl]

Responsible people, specially with children, will NOT own guns.
All those "gun laws" are a perversion

[onepotatotwopotato]

A "perversion" of what?