Senate Dems Waiting For Cost Estimates Before Moving On Health Care

Two reports from congressional accountants, with estimates that put the cost of health care reform higher than expected and the numbers of people covered lower than expected, have caused Senate Democrats to shift their approach and consider other options as they pursue a health care package.

Democrats in the Finance and Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) Committees had sent partial plans to the Congressional Budget Office that did not include a public health insurance option, which accounted for the smaller number of insured. The rest of the package, without the public option in place to lower costs, came out with a trillion dollar price tag -- a magical number that senators don't want to breach.

So this time around, said Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), who is leading the effort in the HELP Committee in the absence of its chairman, Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), they'll use the budget estimate to guide the policy, rather than the other way around.

Dodd declined Tuesday, in a briefing before the eighth committee hearing on the legislation, to say when he would fill in the many pages that still remain blank on the health care bill. He said the committee could end up working through Thursday night if necessary.

"There are various variations of proposals and getting CBO numbers on the variations is what we're trying to do. I know the Finance Committee is doing the same," said Dodd. "Obviously the numbers we received earlier week had some sticker shock for us all."

Dodd said he still backs a public option. But he wants to make sure that it doesn't get sticker-shocked to death.

"We're trying to fashion how to bring those costs down. The accessibility, the affordability, the quality of healthcare are the three principle goals we all share and we don't want to complete our process and find that over the next decade we can not bend that [cost] curve downward," he said.

Dodd said that the committee is asking CBO for estimates "for a number of options" and telling the office to "run the numbers on those options."

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Comments

[Artemis34]

If it is too expensive, you are doing it wrong.

http://askville.amazon.com/lot-depends-tax-money/AnswerDetails.do?requestId=7365405&responseId=7401022

Other industrialized countries can do it for LESS and deliver MORE.

May have to start with something less optimal then move toward the public plans that other countries have.

Hopefully, in the process, the private sector dwindle away.

[mike42nola]

Why would you wish for hundreds of thousands of jobs to dwindle away?

[mrh3]

I say if we can't afford the public option and universal coverage the do single payer. We know that's the cheapest.

[mamamay]

What happened to the folks rolling up sleeves and getting involved? When I hear that grown folks are waiting for COST estimates regarding anything, it reminds me that these same folks may not have a clue regarding cost of goods down to even the knowledge of the cost of grocery store milk. Then WHY are these same folks making a move on our Health Care Plan that most of us Americans,young and old, need to function healthy in America? We need to come together, discuss an affordable cost that will become assessible to the people over a time frame, for the x amount of money needed to pay for it. Next, discuss how the employees, their families, the employers, their families, and the taxes on goods that all will pay, plus the return on volunteer services donated by these families to pay for the Health Care Plan. The Volunteer services will provide multifaced services that will cover both preventable and sustained medical ideologies that will further lower the cost of the overall package. For example, in any State, A family say of six cost $6000 p/yr. Out of pocket $3600,shared by each working member; each employer share cost of 600, + donated 80 hrs of service p/mo for each family. in a Medical related facility. Folks may not have a TV or car per person, but they'll have Health INS.

[schatsie]

Say what? We spend 6 grand for each man woman and child in this country...and volunteering when what you really need is a second job.......Thanks a lot for nothing...

The French do not volunteer, they have 6 weeks of vacation and universal healthcare and it costs less than 4 grand a year....and they see the doctors twice as often as we do and stay in the hospital twice as long as we do......

Roll back the REAGAN ERA tax cuts to what they were when Reagan came in....That will pay for the entire plan for EVERYBODY....then we can start fighting for 6 weeks of vacation.....

[mike42nola]

Why don't we all just quit working. Sounds like that is the goal.

[Levittown]

Democrats who find high costs as an excuse to back off supporting their President should remember they said okay many times to Bush/Cheney with billions to give the Iraqi people and to fight a false war and we are still footing the bills. You let Obama down and we will let you down when you run again.
This is the war we must win to show the Republican naysayers we can win without their non-patriotic support.

[mike42nola]

Trying to save the country from bankruptcy is not considered patriotic?
Tell me what cuts in federal spending we should make to implement this plan?
Quit talking about raising taxes for everyone and let's make the federal government cut wasteful spending before we add anymore spending.
This is the only reasonable method. Prior to implementing any additional government programs we need to find the money to pay for them by cutting waste.

[VanillaCreme]

Doctors don't abuse the system, irresponsible urban welfare recipients do. You see, the government takes care of these people so very well; food stamps, housing, and a government education, and oh it's all the best. All the democrats ask for is their vote. Keep people relying on the government and look what happens. Just go take a walk through your local government housing.

[Beachchick]

Oh good grief. What decade do you live in? Where is all this public housing? Are you familiar with welfare reform? It ended Federal welfare. It's now the individual states' responsibility and called Temporary Aid to Needy Families. Furthermore, most public assistance has a work requirement. You Righties really should try to keep up.

[LynnW49]

Yep. They are locked in the past, and have their stereo(typing) turned up too loud to hear facts.

[VanillaCreme]

Where do you people live? I'll use New Orleans as an example; the murder capitol of the world. Time Magazine did a report on New Orleans and compared it with Baghdad, Caracas, and Cape Town's murder rates.

New Orleans is a welfare city. Detroit is a welfare city. You people must live in Mayberry. Our Barney Fife has to have a bullet proof vest, and carry a semi automatic weapon.

Wake up to reality. Go check out NOLA.com

[wdw505]

cincinnati still has housing projects..­.......alm­ost has bad as the 70s

[babyboomerorig]

Sorry, but doctors, hospitals and pharms DO abuse the system. They charge for tests not performed, double charge for doctor's visits (you go once, they charge Medicare/Medicaid twice), pharms have their own rules and nobody else matters.

As far as welfare goes, I don't know where you live, but here in WI Tommy Thompson changed welfare rules forever and then went on to change it nationally. Welfare to Work.

Food stamps and housing assistance­...another story. We had to have help with food and housing after my husband was injured and unable to work. TBI, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and recently Congestive Heart Failure. 5 lobes of his brain were affected in his initial injury. House and insurance were both gone within 4 months. Lived on $680 a month for 3 years until my SS started.

Until you've experienced instantaneous catastrophic injury or illness, you have no idea of which you speak.

[mike42nola]

I would like to speak to you more about your husband. I lost my job because I have the same illnesses.

[ComeOnAmerica]

Hey vanilla...Nice way to broadbrush a large segment of our society. Very 'republican' of you...Blame everyone else, but God forbid anyone question the outstanding repug policies that got us in this mess, (with, admittedly, some help from dems). Go ask Veterans at VA hospitals if they like their care. The answer is mostly a resounding 'yes'. Ask medicare recipients if they can keep their 401k's instead of taking that money to pay for surgery. My parents are living proof it works.....Lastly, do you know any family members or friends who receive social security checks? If so, you do tell them not to cash the checks, but rather return them with a note saying 'thanks but no thanks." You DO do that, don't you? If not, you're a hypocrite.

[mike42nola]

Why shouldn't the SS recipients cash their checks? They, along with their employers, paid into the system and paid very well.
It is not a government handout but it is a big Ponzi scheme which makes Madoff''s minutes in scale.
The government confiscates the money from our paychecks and you expect us not to cash the small return we get for the hundreds of thousands of dollars that have been paid into the system by us?
You need to get a life and quit expecting the working people to carry the load for you.

[tdpubs]

Cmon, folks. We spend 12 billion on the wars each month and have been doing that since 2003. Why get all nervous about spending money on us for a change?

[ncmom54]

AGREE!

Cost wasn't an issue when W wanted to "shock & awe" Iraq (then rebuild it) nor was it negotiable when TARP was being assembled.

but something that affects the health and care of Americans... well, that might be too expensive.

This is insane! it's time for bake sales covering medical costs for kids with cancer to be over.

[killpack]

Well, since I'm no national security expert, I won't comment too much on the wars we spend money on, because I just don't know enough about it. I'd like to think that they are a waste of money, so I guess if I had to choose right now, going by what little information I have, I'd say let's get out of there.

However, when you say "why get all nervous about spending money on us for a change," I hope everyone stops and thinks real hard about what that really means. If I wanted to spend money on myself, wouldn't I just buy health insurance myself? Why do I need Congress to do that for me? I don't even trust Congress. Not many people do. They have a 29% approval rating.

[Beachchick]

Honestly, are you happy with the cost of your health insurance and the service it provides for the amount of money you spend? The incompetent government is a meme. I trust the government over a private system that finds it cheaper to litigate a claim than to pay it.

[ComeOnAmerica]

Exactly, tdpubs. It's funny when conservatives: a) rubberstamped all the Bush budgets without a peep; b) have ALL OF A SUDDEN siad we can't afford to help our own people; and c) Scream for more money to engage/invade more countries, WITHOUT ANY CONCERN FOR THE COSTS!!!

On a related note, I heard today that Senate repubs REJECTED 172 measures on health PREVENTION ideas.

[mike42nola]

And they have the power to set policy in which way?

[lazercat2008]

I hope they are learning, THEY WORK FOR US!

[kimk3]

Run the numbers for single payer! They have not that and they will not do that because they know the numbers will come out the best and make all the others look ridiculous. Demand they do cost accounting for single payer!

[Lyr]

They should run the numbers for several options. I really feel like the whole debate is constructed around the predetermined choices. One of the things I like about the French, even though I am not a fan of socialism, is when thier government undertakes a task, they really study it, they commission several studies, and go over them all, and then make a decisions based more on evidence than politics. They are not perfect of course though, but when they screw up I have seen more willingness on thier part to admit than you see over here.

[Dystopic]

single payer is dead. Easier to maim the insurance companies (and end up with defacto single payer) than to kill them outright.

[confidance government]

Sounds pretty reasonable to make an estimate prior to proceeding. Any idea what data and assumptions they will use to form their estimate?

[Bush-Rolled]

Vic Ulmer in a letter to the editor of the NYT 6/15/09:

A modest proposal to all our representatives in Congress: (1) Withdraw from your present “socialized” medical coverage and apply for a private insurance plan of your choice, or (2) Allow the rest of us Americans to have the same benefits you enjoy — taxpayer-financed public health care.

From Forbes.com June 19, 2009:

David Scheiner, an internist based in the Chicago neighborhood of Hyde Park, and Barack Obama's doctor for 22 years, thinks that a good health reform would be "Medicare for all," a single-payer system where the government would cover everyone and pay for it by cutting out waste in the system.

Perhaps it's time for the President to listen to his doctor.

[mike42nola]

I want their retirement plan also.

[Lyr]

We need to roll thier retirement plans into social security. If it's so good for us, it's good for them too. We should roll all public employees into social security actually.

[lared]

I have always thought their retirement plan was good enough for the population. If not , then they should withdraw from the government plan they enjoy so well.

[citizensrus]

Flashback : March, 2004
"The Bush administration has endorsed and even funded universal health insurance. The thing is, the President's universal health insurance program is for the people of Iraq, not anything for the 44 million Americans. "Rep.Jim McDermott


http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp040304a.shtml

[Lyr]

Alot of us knew Bush was a socialist from the very beginning.

[mike42nola]

He sure wasn't a conservative and Presidents along with other politicians like him who claim to be conservative but follow a very liberal agenda and set extremely liberal policies give conservatism and free market capitalists a bad name.

[schatsie]

McDermott ROCKS!!!

[citizensrus]

Prevention is an aspect of health care that is cost effective. Initially the cost may be high to reform a health care system to provide for preventive health measures..but in the long run the investment is well worth the cost and saves money. Not to mention lives.
CBO has this to say about the cost of Health Reform:
"Certain policies could result in some budget savings and also impose some costs. CBO tries to assess both. For example, many health reform proposals include expanded support for preventive care and wellness services, as well as greater emphasis on primary care. Such policies have the potential to improve health outcomes and enhance the quality of patients’ lives. To the extent that policies avert diseases or lead to more effective medical care, they also might reduce health spending on balance. However, some policies of this sort might actually raise health spending, because additional preventive or primary care generally costs money, not every aspect of preventive or primary care is effective at averting disease, and people who avoid certain diseases may fall victim to other diseases instead. For a detailed discussion of how CBO estimates the effects of proposals aimed at improving health or increasing the use of clinical preventive services, see Chapter 7 of our December 2008 volume on Key Issues in Analyzing Major Health Insurance Proposals."

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/

[DestinationsUnknown]

PAC Contributions. Based on data downloaded from OpenSecrets.org, a.k.a. the Center for Responsive Politics. Contributions were tallied from two industry codes: F3200 (Accident & Health Insurance) and H3700 (HMO's).

Top recipients of PAC money from these industries since 2004 are as follows:
Senator Cycles PAC $
Baucus (D-MT) 3.125 $141,250
McConnell (R-KY) 3.125 $110,750
Nelson (D-NE) 3.125 $106,123
Kyl (R-AZ) 3.125 $106,000
Gregg (R-NH) 3.125 $103,500
Grassley (R-IA) 3.125 $95,000
Lincoln (D-AR) 3.125 $91,000
Enzi (R-WY) 3.125 $87,000
Chambliss (R-GA) 3.125 $86,750
Ensign (R-NV) 3.125 $85,750
==========­==========­==========­========
AVERAGE SENATOR $37,267

[citizensrus]

In the middle of all this...who can argue that Health Care is a Human Right?

[Lyr]

I don't know that you can have a right to someone else's labor and product. Thankfully we outlawed such arrangements with a constitutional amendment after the civil war.

[citizensrus]

Have you ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath? Okay, a baby has a treatable illness. You are saying that she is not entitled to care? You would let her die rather than be treated in a universal health option. Yet,the same people negating this right to reduce death and suffering,say they are pro-life. There is a disconnect here.
The right to life includes the right to humanity. And this isn't just free and clear health care, what the people are asking is a non-profit health care system. That doesn't mean health care workers don't get paid. It means AIG investors and other insurance industry investors don't reap milllions, perhaps billions in profit from the suffering of others.

[citizensrus]

BTW, it is law that if you see an injured person in a traffic accident you have to stop and render aid. Are you saying...that you would not do that if you don't get paid?

[the steamer]

Tell that to the Dept. of Transportation, the Dept. of Education or the U.S.P.S.

[Beachchick]

This is an absurd argument. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Doctors and health care professionals will be well paid. If you are referring to taxes, then maybe you should read up on democratic theory. This is not a constitutional issue. This is a democracy issue. This is about the long term economic and social health on the United States.

[DestinationsUnknown]

McCain said it is a privelege

[Lyr]

He needs to put out to pasture. Health care is a service. Not a right or a priveledge.

[patricksmom]

And McCain is not the PResident, Obama is.

[PINO]

This From the NY Times -

The C.B.O. measured the plans, and the results were devastating. A successful plan has to be revenue-neutral for the government over the next 10 years, and it has to reduce the total health care burden over the long term so the country doesn’t go bankrupt. The Senate committee plans failed both criteria. They would cost the government more than $1 trillion this decade and send total health care costs zooming at least twice as fast as the economy as a whole.

The C.B.O. reports sent shock waves through Washington. Senators and staffs began casting about for a way to get a good C.B.O. score. President Obama redoubled his rhetoric about fundamentally reducing health care costs.

This would be bad enough in normal times. But the country is already careening toward fiscal ruin. We’ve already passed a nearly $800 billion stimulus package. The public debt is already projected to quadruple over the next 10 years.

Is Health care reform is important enough to bankrupting the country???. If this process goes as it has been going — with grand rhetoric and superficial cost containment — then we will be far better off killing this effort and starting over in a few years. Maybe then there will be leaders willing to look at the options staring them in the face.

See you all in 2012 - and say goodbye to obama

[citizensrus]

CBO didn't factor in public option.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200906180031

[mike42nola]

That is because the public option plan is not being considered by Congress.

[DestinationsUnknown]

Leo Wise is at the CBO Ethics-

2003- WWW.USDOJ.GOV
Columbia/HCA Inc.- LARGEST HEALTH CARE FRAUD CASE IN U.S. HISTORY SETTLED

JULY 10, 2007 - SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT CHARGES EIGHT FORMER EXECUTIVES OF HEALTH CARE FINANCING COMPANY WITH CONSPIRACY, FRAUD, MONEY LAUNDERING

'Ladies and gentlemen, this is a case of staggering fraud,' Leo Wise said. 'It is one of the largest frauds the FBI has ever investigated.

"This case is one of the largest corporate fraud investigations involving a privately held company headquartered in small town America," said Assistant Director Kenneth W. Kaiser of the FBI Criminal Investigative Division.

All of Columbia's homecare units were at National Century Financial Enterprises

12 executives found guilty- ONE month before GW Bush leaves office-

December 2008 - The last person to stand trial was James K Happ, the ex-CFO of Columbia Homecare Group.

A former friend of Happ's testified that, while working at National Century, Happ boasted that he never could be charged with any fraud because he didn't sign anything.

1 month before GW Bush left office- All other execs at National Century Financial Enterprises were found guilty and convicted.

December 2008 - the largest fraud case FBI has ever investigated-ONE ACQUITTAL-
James K Happ, the ex-CFO of Columbia Homecare Group.

Jurors stated; "PROSECUTOR DID NOT DO HIS JOB"

'Ladies and gentlemen, this is a case of staggering fraud,' Leo Wise said. 'It is one of the largest frauds the FBI has ever investigated.

[DestinationsUnknown]

Jurors stated; "PROSECUTOR DID NOT DO HIS JOB"

'Ladies and gentlemen, this is a case of staggering fraud,' Leo Wise said. 'It is one of the largest frauds the FBI has ever investigated.

Leo Wise is at the CBO Ethics-

[patricksmom]

Health care reform will not bankrupt this country. Doing nothing will bankrupt this country, lead to even more individual bankruptcies. We will work on it now. And we will re-elect Obama in 2012. What would your alternative be...Newt, Palin, Rush , the disappearing Sanford.?

[citizensrus]

The role the Health Insurance plays and ..what you may not know:
"Civilian workers who suffered devastating injuries while supporting the U.S. war effort in Iraq and Afghanistan have come home to a grinding battle for basic medical care, artificial limbs, psychological counseling and other services.

The insurance companies responsible for their treatment under taxpayer-funded policies have routinely denied the most serious medical claims. Those insurers -- primarily American International Group (AIG) -- recorded hundreds of millions of dollars in profits on this business.

The civilian contractors have played an indispensable role in the two conflicts, delivering fuel to frontline troops, guarding U.S. diplomats and translating for soldiers during dangerous raids. More than 1,400 civilian workers have died and 31,000 have been wounded or injured in the two war zones."

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/17/nation/na-contractors17

[Lyr]

Of course insurance companies deny care. They make money by collecting premiums and not giving service. The last thing they want to do is pay for care. Every subsidy, every special "regulation" every legal protection, needs to be removed from the health insurance industry. It is time for them to come down, no more special favors, protection and subsidies from our government.

[citizensrus]

"It's almost like we're this invisible, discardable military. Once we've done our jobs, they can actually sidetrack us and not worry about us anymore," said Tim Newman, a sheriff's deputy from South Carolina who lost his leg to a roadside bomb in Baghdad. Once back home, he fought an insurance company for a year to get a prosthetic leg that his doctors recommended.

"It's like we're disposable soldiers," said Newman, 44, who worked on a police training program in Iraq.

The insurance system for civilian contractors has generated profits for the providers, primarily AIG, the war zone's dominant player. Insurers collected more than $1.5 billion in premiums paid by U.S. taxpayers and have earned nearly $600 million in profit, according to congressional investigators.

A military audit deemed AIG's premiums "unreasonably high."

Insurance companies initially rejected 44% of claims from contractors involving serious injuries and more than half of all claims related to psychological stress, records show. As a result, civilians maimed or traumatized in the war zone often must wage lengthy court battles for medical care and benefits."
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/17/nation/na-contractors17

1.5 billion in taxpayer dollars for not delivering care

[Lyr]

The Federal government has NEVER treated veterans with respect. Just look at the VA. Latest scandal is 10,000 possible hepatits and HIV infections because the VA was too cheap to clean the equipment before giving a colonoscopy. Freakin scary, and criminal.

[Artemis34]

Mercenaries should know they are expendable. But AIG should honor their policies.

This is why we should have public care for all,

because the private companies WILL NOT do it.