Obama Says Honduran Ouster Was 'Not Legal'

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BEN FELLER | 06/29/09 08:20 PM | AP

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President Barack Obama meets with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe, not pictured, in the White House Oval Office, Monday, June 29, 2009, in Washington. (AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari)

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Monday declared that the United States still considers Manuel Zelaya to be the president of Honduras and assailed the coup that forced him into exile as "not legal," widening the chasm between the Central American nation and much of the rest of the world.

"It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition rather than democratic elections," Obama said in the Oval Office after meeting with Colombian President Alviro Uribe. "The region has made enormous progress over the last 20 years in establishing democratic traditions in Central America and Latin America. We don't want to go back to a dark past."

Leaders from across the Western Hemisphere and beyond called for return to power of Zelaya, who was arrested Sunday morning by soldiers who stormed his residence and forced him into exile. The country now has another president appointed by its Congress, Roberto Micheletti, who insisted that Zelaya was removed legally by the courts and Congress for violating Honduras' constitution and attempting to extend his own rule.

As the military takeover roiled a region that Obama just visited in April, he sought a political balance of showing firmness without boxing himself in.

Obama said the U.S. must always "stand with democracy" even if doesn't like the results of elections.

But he was careful to cast the crisis as not one that the United States must solve alone, and he did not explicitly demand that Zelaya be returned to power. Rather, he said the U.S. would work with international partners on the less-defined goal of trying to "resolve this in a peaceful way."

The president also was careful when asked about the underlying conflict in Honduras _ the referendum Zelaya had called in defiance of Honduras' courts and Congress. Zelaya's opponents saw it as a way for him to ultimately stay in power beyond his one-term limit. The vote never took place.

Obama said such matters are up to each country to decide, stirring up echoes of his comments on Iran, whose electoral crisis has grabbed world attention.

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"What's ultimately most important is that the people feel a sense of legitimacy and ownership, and that this is not something imposed on them from the top, that it does not involve manipulations of the electorate or, you know, rigging of the electoral process or repression of opposition voices," Obama said Monday.

As Obama talked about the voices of the people being heard, thousands of people protested in the Honduran capital city of Tegucigalpa outside the presidential palace. Police and soldiers are used tear gas to scatter them.

Obama's message _ "We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras" _ seemed more blunt than that of his secretary of state, Hillary Rodham Clinton, earlier in the day. But they both emphasized the broader point of returning constitutional order.

When Clinton was asked directly if the U.S. was insisting on Zelaya's return to power, she said: "We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives, which are shared broadly."

Zelaya, forced to go to Costa Rica, planned to address the U.N. General Assembly on Tuesday. The Organization of American States called an emergency meeting of foreign ministers for Tuesday as well.

And leaders wondered nervously about the broader implications of a hostile takeover that officials from the U.S. and other countries could not prevent.

"As we move forward, all parties have a responsibility to address the underlying problems that led to yesterday's events," Clinton said.

Coups were common in Central America for four decades reaching back to the 1950s, but Sunday's ouster was the first military power grab in Latin America since a brief, failed 2002 coup against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. It was the first in Central America since military officials forced President Jorge Serrano of Guatemala to step down in 1993 after he tried to dissolve Congress and suspend the constitution.

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Obama has not spoken with Zelaya since the Honduran leader was forced into exile. Gibbs said it was premature to talk about whether the U.S. would withdraw its ambassador or seek to cut off aid from Honduras.

Chavez, a leftist ally of Zelaya, vowed to "overthrow" Micheletti; the appointed national president shot back: "Nobody scares us."

Zelaya's term ends on Jan. 27, with elections scheduled for November.

Obama's comments were the second in two days. While Clinton said on the day of the takeover that the action against Zelaya should be "condemned by all," the president himself called on all "political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms."

___

Associated Press writers Robert Burns in Washington, Julie Watson in Mexico City and Will Weissert in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, contributed to this story.

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Monday declared that the United States still considers Manuel Zelaya to be the president of Honduras and assailed the coup that forced him into exile as "n...
WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Monday declared that the United States still considers Manuel Zelaya to be the president of Honduras and assailed the coup that forced him into exile as "n...
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From Half Sigma July 1
Article 239 of the Honduran constitution

Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution reads:

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

It’s not exactly like the U.S. Constitution, but does it violate norms of democratic republican government? I don’t think so. The problem of presidents who never leave power is all too common among undeveloped countries, so a very strict prohibition against multiple terms of office seems appropriate.

Zelaya directly violated Article 239 by ordering an election to reform the Constitution in order to keep himself in power beyond his term of office. He was then removed from office as the Constitution of his own country calls for.

How was Zelaya’s removal from office unlawful? It seems to be exactly what the Constitution of Honduras requires given his crime.
http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/07/article-239-of-the-honduran-constitution.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:00 PM on 07/04/2009
- MacQ I'm a Fan of MacQ 41 fans permalink

Mr. Obama apparently believes that democratically elected leaders may proceed to dismantle the constitution in order to install themselves as president for life, and that once elected, they can't be removed from office.
He would do well to take note.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:26 AM on 07/01/2009
- scat I'm a Fan of scat 14 fans permalink
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I blame Bush

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 06/30/2009
- pomegrante I'm a Fan of pomegrante 12 fans permalink
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most rightwingers love dictators BUT they must be in their mold. (ie, they absolutely adored batista in cuba, etc..)they support wealthy, corporate interests.

no chavez,left, no fidel, left, etc.....th­ey support the poor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:52 AM on 06/30/2009
- KinkyGirl I'm a Fan of KinkyGirl 9 fans permalink
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No Coup d'Etat is ever legal. EVER.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 06/29/2009

There is a lot of blather written by some who appear to be neocon groupies. And that includes a poster that keeps justifying the coup d'état in Honduras.

Article 2 of the Honduran Constitution (HCP) stipulates that any usurpation of the powers created by the constitution is high treason and a crime not subject to the statute of limitations.

Article 3 of the HCP stipulates that citizens are not required obey any usurping government or anybody that comes to a position of public authority by force, or by means or procedures that disavows the constitution. Public act sanctioned by such authorities are null and void. The people have the right to insurrection in order to reestablish the constitutional order.

Article 280 stipulates the president may FREELY appoint or remove the secretary of defense and the head of the military high command. It would be more than interesting to find out how the Supreme Court reappointed General Vásquez.

Various articles, a whole chapter in fact, state that the military's duty of obedience is to the president of the country. They are also required to be non political and non deliberative.

Article 375 stipulates that those who break the constitutional order will be put on trial in accordance with the constitution and any laws that conform with it (i.e. the HCP). It seems clear to me that the big breach was done by the military and Micheletti.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:15 PM on 06/29/2009

Maybe Zelaya's big "crime" was that he wanted to a non-binding consultation on whether people wanted, during the next election, an additional ballot box to answer the question on whether the prohibition on presidential reelection should be the submitted to a public referendum.

Therefore, even if had carried the balloting yesterday and obtained a favorable result about the ballot box at the next general election, he still would have had to take the next step of convincing people to "vote" that they want to decide in a referendum the issue of presidential reelection. And if he had succeeded in that step, then he would have had to convince congress to amend the HCP so that the matter of presidential reelection can be put to a referendum (article 5 presently prohibits it). And if he had cleared that step, he still would have had to convince people to vote in favor of enabling the reelection of presidents.

On an issue related to this whole coup problem, it is worth noting that the Honduran congress ran and expeditiously approved, in the middle of last week, a law to prohibit the consultation that President Zelaya intended to conduct. In Honduras, like in all presidential systems, bills don't become laws unless they are signed by the president after their enactment in their legislative. If Zelaya is so unpopular, why do you need a special law to block his little consultation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 06/29/2009
- barksalot I'm a Fan of barksalot 44 fans permalink

Zelaya is no different than than Obama's book swapping pal Chavez. What is the matter with this man. Is he waiting for things to play out like in Iran?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:54 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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"This man" is the President of the United States and unlike your cowboy president he doesn't believe in charging uninvited into other countries affairs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 PM on 06/29/2009
- uvymopka I'm a Fan of uvymopka 17 fans permalink
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The problem with "this man" is that he is weak. They may have not like a "cowboy" but they respected him. Zelaya is a Chavez want-to-be.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 AM on 06/30/2009
- GalenL I'm a Fan of GalenL 2 fans permalink

The only people who start pissing matches are the ones who think they need to prove something.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 06/30/2009
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Whether Obama likes it or not, the forced removal of Zelaya was required by the Honduran constitution. What Zelaya did was illegal. The only way to allow for more than one term is to scrap their entire constitution. Apparently to even suggest what Zelaya did constitutes treason. So... it's none of our business.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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Please cite the portion of the Honduran Constitution that makes what the military did entirely legal by the laws of Honduras.

Because if it looks/talks/walks like a coup -- and under any modern country's judicial definition that is illegal -- then President Obama calling a coup illegal is a simple statement of fact.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:37 PM on 06/29/2009

It was not a military coup. The military acted as the enforcer of the law on behalf of the Supreme Court and Congress. They were sent to arrest Zelaya for doing something that had already been ruled illegal.
I paraphrase something I read today: If the supreme court rules on something and the president ignores it, who is supposed to make him listen? The man thought he was above the law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:19 AM on 06/30/2009
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If you are correct which I don't then the Honduran Constitution is a flawed document.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 PM on 06/29/2009
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Didn't read the article. Zelaya wanted a referendum to change the constitution's limit of one term for the president. How is that "scrapping the whole constitution? The referendum never took place anyway, so what else did he do wrong? Are you saying that calling for a referendum, to make a lawful change, is treason?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 AM on 06/30/2009
- bayside I'm a Fan of bayside 38 fans permalink
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Coup was not legal. and neither was bush presidentc­y.........­...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 06/29/2009
- cjt1957 I'm a Fan of cjt1957 19 fans permalink

Did Moveon.org tell you to say that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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No, you did.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:43 PM on 06/29/2009
- mpak I'm a Fan of mpak 8 fans permalink
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Dictators are usually democratically elected. This is why there is a constitution and judicial system. The Judicial system in Honduras has ruled Zelaya actions illegal. The democratically elected legislative branch and the judicial branch chose to take him out of power.

In the US we have impeachment, but if the president doesn't want to leave he is forced to by the military or some sort of police force.

What was done in Honduras was legal

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 PM on 06/29/2009
- mpak I'm a Fan of mpak 8 fans permalink
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The action that was ruled illegal was his way of changing the constitution. Read more here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 06/29/2009
- drjasonmd I'm a Fan of drjasonmd 34 fans permalink
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Except he wasn't changing the constitution.

The WSJ is parroting the same lies as the Honduran corporate media (they showed cartoons this weekend, it was fun!).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 PM on 06/29/2009
- drjasonmd I'm a Fan of drjasonmd 34 fans permalink
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They didn't impeach him, they removed him by coup.

They didn't bother with due process because he didn't do anything illegal. The vote was not a referendum, it was a poll. That's not illegal.

What was done in Honduras was not legal. Like you said. They CHOSE to remove him and they did. Had they bothered with due process, they would not have won.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 PM on 06/29/2009
- gino618 I'm a Fan of gino618 48 fans permalink

What happened to 'not meddling' in other countries' politics?

No mention of the 'legality' of Iran's elections, but he's sure quick to jump in on the side of Chavez & Castro....­.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 06/29/2009
- flamflurm I'm a Fan of flamflurm 50 fans permalink
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Par for the course, gino.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 PM on 06/29/2009
- drjasonmd I'm a Fan of drjasonmd 34 fans permalink
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Every country in the OAS condemned the coup, not just Chavez and Castro.

I guess Roosevelt sided with Stalin then.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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Commentary, even from a world leader, is hardly meddling, and the President pretty much said the obvious.

FYI: A coup is not an election. Until we know otherwise, if it looks like a coup it's a coup and coups do not generally fall under any country's definition of legal action.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:12 PM on 06/29/2009
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So he will speak up to keep dictators in power, but not to support protesters seeking freedom.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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Which "he," which "dictator" and which "protesters"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 PM on 06/29/2009
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Does the Honduran Constitution have a provision for amendments? If not it is a flawed document. I nonbinding referendum seems a reasonable step in the process.

The poor in Latin America want representation and the wealthy who have stolen the wealth of their nations don't want to give up power. Let the poor have a say in their countries, then they won't have to leave their families to come here to earn a living.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 06/29/2009
- mpak I'm a Fan of mpak 8 fans permalink
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2/3 of congress need to present the referendum to the people. Instead, Zelaya chose to pass out referendums unconstitutionally. Are you saying that the legislative branch is undemocratic?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:51 PM on 06/29/2009
- drjasonmd I'm a Fan of drjasonmd 34 fans permalink
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The Honduran legislative branch IS very undemocratic. Just because they have elections doesn't mean they are representing anyone other than the people that bought them.

Zelaya did not pass out a referendum, he passed out a poll. They just didn't want the voice of the people to be known.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 06/29/2009
- flamflurm I'm a Fan of flamflurm 50 fans permalink
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Inform yourself. They've got a mechanism for amending their constitution, but Zelaya was violating it. The relevant passages are here:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=24805633&postID=7256651202656747981

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 06/29/2009
- drjasonmd I'm a Fan of drjasonmd 34 fans permalink
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He wasn't violating anything. He was doing a poll.

You should check your sources.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 06/29/2009
- scat I'm a Fan of scat 14 fans permalink
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Good for them. We should only be so brave and throw off the yolk of the yahoos we have in our government.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 06/29/2009
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It sounds better when said in its original german.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:09 PM on 06/29/2009
- Weirdwriter I'm a Fan of Weirdwriter 332 fans permalink
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And you would know that so well, mein herr.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:15 PM on 06/29/2009
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