Blue Dog Dems Rebel On Health Care Bill

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DAVID ESPO and ERICA WERNER | July 9, 2009 11:43 PM EST | AP

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Vice President Joe Biden speaks about a White House deal with hospitals to help pay for President Barack Obama's overhaul of health care, Wednesday, July 8, 2009, in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building in Washington. At left is Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. (AP Photo/Ron Edmonds)

WASHINGTON — The drive to remake the nation's health care system suffered yet another setback in Congress on Thursday when a pivotal group of House Democrats demanded changes in legislation the leadership was drafting on a fast track.

The emerging bill "lacks a number of elements essential to preserving what works and fixing what is broken," 40 members of the Blue Dog Coalition of moderate to conservative Democrats wrote party leaders. To win their support, they said, any legislation would need to be much more aggressive in reining in health care costs as well as in addressing a disparity in Medicare payments they said adversely affects rural providers.

A group of the moderates met into early evening with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and arranged to sit down with committee chairmen on Friday to go over proposed changes. Officials said the public release of the bill, originally set for Friday, would occur no earlier than Monday.

It was the second setback in three days for President Barack Obama's top domestic priority, although it was unclear whether it would amount to anything more than a brief delay for a bill of enormous complexity and controversy.

There was upheaval earlier in the week in the Senate, where the Democratic leadership is intent on scuttling a proposed tax on health care benefits that has long been key to attempts at a bipartisan compromise. At the same time, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and others went out of their way during the day to emphasize eagerness for Republican support.

As an alternative to the benefits tax, Democrats are considering raising taxes on wealthy investors to help pay for health care legislation, along with numerous other options, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity. The proposal to extend the current 1.45 percent Medicare payroll tax to capital gains earned by high-income taxpayers would bring in an estimated $100 billion over 10 years.

In the House, Hoyer sought to minimize the day's developments, which occurred as Democrats on one committee were making final decisions on provisions to pay for the legislation.

"Let me make it very clear that everybody in that room thinks we ought to pass health care reform," the Maryland Democrat said.

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One conservative Democrat, Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., said he believes no House vote should take place until September. That is well past a midsummer informal deadline set by Pelosi, D-Calif.

"I promised the president that we would have legislation out of the House before we went on an August break," Pelosi said earlier in the day. "That is still my goal."

Despite some success _ the nation's hospitals agreed to a cut of $155 billion in projected Medicare and Medicaid payments _ progress has been scant and internal differences magnified.

In general, any bill that emerges from Congress is expected to follow Obama's blueprint for reining in health care costs overall while extending coverage to 50 million who lack it.

Another objective is to make sure that insurance companies can no longer deny coverage or raise premiums to unaffordable levels to individuals with pre-existing medical conditions.

But literally hundreds of details are involved in drafting legislation, and gaining a consensus even among Democrats is proving to be remarkably _ if predictably _ difficult, despite their large majorities in both houses.

As an example, some Democrats are demanding legislation that permits the government to sell insurance in competition with private companies. Republicans overwhelmingly oppose such a plan, deeming it a stalking horse for universal government-run insurance, and many Democrats have concerns, as well.

Some Democrats prefer a plan for a nonprofit cooperative to take the place of government in competing with private companies. Others favor a government role only in cases in which consumers lack a choice in coverage.

Similarly, Democrats are divided on paying for the bill, some preferring more tax increases than others, some favoring more cuts in Medicare and Medicaid.

"We've just got a lot of question and the top of the list would be how to pay for it," said Rep. Marion Berry, D-Ark., one of the Blue Dogs.

"I don't think we have significant cost-containment mechanisms in the proposal yet," said Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif. He said he favors provisions aimed at preventing overtreatment of patients and overpayments to doctors, hospitals and other providers.

A dispute over tax increases was at the core of upheaval in the Senate earlier in the week.

Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., and chairman of the Finance Committee, has been working for months with Republicans in hopes of gaining support for a bipartisan bill that can command 60 votes.

Efforts to raise money to pay for subsidizing the cost of insurance had focused on a tax on health care benefits for workers with high-cost coverage provided by their employers.

Baucus and Republican supporters argued it would also have tended to reduce the cost of health care overall, as well as offset the cost of the bill. But the Democratic leadership stepped in forcefully, citing poor public polling, opposition of organized labor and concerns about taxing middle-income workers.

WASHINGTON — The drive to remake the nation's health care system suffered yet another setback in Congress on Thursday when a pivotal group of House Democrats demanded changes in legislation the ...
WASHINGTON — The drive to remake the nation's health care system suffered yet another setback in Congress on Thursday when a pivotal group of House Democrats demanded changes in legislation the ...
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Okay, Nancy. Do your job. Now. Get this done and get it done right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 AM on 07/10/2009

Not sure you can put it on Nancy that that there are a bunch of cowardly centrist Democrats running around saying they can't support something 70% of the American people support.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 AM on 07/10/2009
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Centrists are completely useless. They stand for nothing. They never get anything done.

They need to be replaced with progressives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 07/10/2009
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jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd I'm a fan of this user permalink

"You're hopeless. I did ask you somewhere else though if you had any suggestions or if you were just here to argue against anything other than the status quo. Well?"

I support VA-for-all universal health care, supplemented by a private health care system and private insurance.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 AM on 07/10/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

After all that you support universal health care? So what's the problem, you think it's financially unobtainable?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 AM on 07/10/2009
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It's politically unattainable now because the debate has been framed around big, bad insurance companies.

Look at any number of the other countries that libs cite as proof that government insurance works. Most of them have private insurance companies that supplement the system. There's nothing at all wrong with private insurance companies, they're just a convenient political target, no more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 07/10/2009
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Flossophy (low-information commenter) wrote:


"And Obama tripled Bush's deficit over 5 years and quadrupled it over 10."

=================================================================

--Deficit when Obama came into office: $1.3 trillion

--Deficit in 2013 (CBO projection): $310 billion

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10014/03-20-PresidentBudget.pdf

Please explain how cutting the deficit by $1 trillion = tripling the deficit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 AM on 07/10/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

If Obama follows Reagan's model of fiscal "restraint", (not recommended). He has about $30 TRILLION MORE DEBT TO WORK WITH,. Yes $30 Trillion folks, read it and weep.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 AM on 07/10/2009

If you are going to link a document like that, take some advice and read it first. Nothing in that supports your claim he is cutting the deficit:

The cumulative deficit from 2010 to 2019 under the
President’s proposals would total $9.3 trillion, compared
with a cumulative deficit of $4.4 trillion projected
under the current-law assumptions embodied in
CBO’s baseline. Debt held by the public would rise,
from 41 percent of GDP in 2008 to 57 percent in
2009 and then to 82 percent of GDP by 2019 (compared
with 56 percent of GDP in that year under
baseline assumptions).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 07/10/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

The Debt needs to be much higher to counteract the Bush Depression.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 AM on 07/10/2009
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Huh?

No offense, but an idio.t like yourself must not understand the difference between an account DEFICIT and public DEBT.

Familiarize yourself with the difference so you don't make such an as.s out of yourself.

CBO numbers baseline / CBO President budget

2009: $1.6 trillion / $1.9 trillion
2010: $1.1 trillion / $1.3 trillion
2011: $693/ $900 billion
2012: $331/ $658 billion
2013: $300/ $672 billion

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 AM on 07/10/2009
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Hahahahahahaha.

Interesting how that does NOT include the debt run up from bailouts during Bush's term.

Fact is, by the time Obama took office, the 2009 deficit was already at $1.3 trillion (revised up from the $1.2 trillion back at the beginning of January -- when Bush was in office).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 AM on 07/10/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 373 fans permalink
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williamg (high-condescension commenter)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 AM on 07/10/2009
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Here’s why WE DON’T NEED A PUBLIC PLAN

Take a Look at Medicare

The present value of unfunded obligations under all parts of Medicare during FY 2007 over a 75-year forecast horizon is approximately $34.0 trillion. In other words, this amount would have to be set aside today such that the principal and interest would cover the shortfall over the next 75 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)#Financial_viability

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 AM on 07/10/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

Your source is wikipedia?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 AM on 07/10/2009
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Yeah, I normally wouldn't use it, but it's very trusted on this site for whatever reason.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 AM on 07/10/2009
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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That would be if there were no cost controls.

What do you think the reason is for a public plan? It's to control costs.

It's not that difficult to follow along.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 AM on 07/10/2009
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Control costs how? Drive Medicare's 3% overhead lower?

-boggle-

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:18 AM on 07/10/2009

Cost Control in a Public Plan = Rationing

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 AM on 07/10/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

Here's why we don't need a public plan;
"Because so the fvc k what if 45million people don't have coverage and millions more are going broke paying for there's. So the fvc k what! America don't do no fvc king socialism."

Am i right? Is that you and you con buddies are at?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 AM on 07/10/2009
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WASHINGTON, June 23 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Today the Employment Policies Institute (EPI) released a new study which shows that the widely employed estimate of 47 million uninsured Americans is a misleading representation of the problem. The study, authored by Drs. June and David O'Neill of Baruch College and City University of New York, shows that more than 43 percent, or 16 million, of uninsured Americans ages 18-64 could likely afford health coverage and are actually "voluntarily uninsured." June O'Neill served as Director of the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) from 1995-1999.
http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=ind_focus.story&STORY=/www/story/07-01-2009/0005053620&EDATE=

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 AM on 07/10/2009
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The uninsured can be covered WITHOUT a public plan. Offering a public plan does NOTHING to cover them.

Why did you link the two together?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 AM on 07/10/2009
- mrh3 I'm a Fan of mrh3 43 fans permalink

One more thing Bush screwed up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 07/10/2009

hang in there DelawareVol....you are swimming up stream against this group.
It is intersting to visit and get another point of view, but I wouldn't want to live here.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:07 AM on 07/10/2009

LOL!!! Yeah I know, unfortunately I live amongst the nutroot/drones here in Delaware so I'm always on alert for abject stupidity... I think Joe Biden's lack of intellect has rubbed off on the masses....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 AM on 07/10/2009
- jadeba I'm a Fan of jadeba 39 fans permalink

Lucky you, wish my county was blue - I'm stuck in the middle of the most back a$$ward far right evangelical trash (Colorado Springs). You'd love it here in the land of the wingnuts. Luckily, the state as a whole, is turning more blue each day! The average IQ of Coloradans is on the rise.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 07/10/2009
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You probably think Sarah Palin is an intellectual.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 07/10/2009
- Max01 I'm a Fan of Max01 5 fans permalink

You know what's "intersting"? That combover doesn't know how to spell properly. We don't want you live here either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 AM on 07/10/2009
- eciaccio I'm a Fan of eciaccio 13 fans permalink

"...they said, any legislation would need to be much more aggressive in reining in health care costs as well as in addressing a disparity in Medicare payments they said adversely affects rural providers."

Okay. So when are they going to support H.R. 676, a single payer health care system which WILL be the most aggressive way to rein in health care costs as well as address disparities in Medicare payments affecting rural providers?

Or are they merely blowing smoke while representing their paying patrons, the insurance industry?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 AM on 07/10/2009
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How will single payer drive down Medicare's costs?

They're already optimally efficient, at less than 3% overhead, so increased efficiency obviously can't be the mechanism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 AM on 07/10/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

Getting rid of Part D will save billions. Medicare works just fine. Just not enough people in the system. Get everyone in the system. Problem solved.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 AM on 07/10/2009
- Littledog I'm a Fan of Littledog 4 fans permalink

75% of Americans want a public health care option. I would be very afraid to reject it based on a few Rush Limbaugh listeners if I were you. Or is the money from Pharma and the Insurance industry just too hard for you to resist?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 PM on 07/09/2009
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And Californians just voted to NOT cut services and NOT raise taxes.

But you're right, mob mentality rules.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

The only mobs I've seen lately in this country were at teaparties and Palin rallies. That's a scarey mob.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:56 PM on 07/09/2009
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California....the ballot initiative state.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 07/10/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

Maybe the blue dogs think they are in safely Democratic districts, so their constituents, while disappointed, will hold their noses and vote for them again. We need to remove that comfort level by supporting Democratic primary challengers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:56 PM on 07/09/2009

Why do you think they are designated blue dogs? They are blue dogs because they are representing right leaning districts, many holding seats formerly held by Republicans. This was part of Rahm Emmanuel's strategy to get majorities in both the Senate and House. They ran moderate democratic candidates in right leaning districts that were frustrated with Republicans. Just because voters were frustrated with Republicans doesn't mean they were all of a sudden liberal thinking dems. I live in such a district and can assure you a more liberal candidate might win the primary but would stand no chance of winning an overall election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 AM on 07/10/2009

Socialized/Rationed Healthcare is just about done.... In reality it has NO shot of passing and that is a VERY good thing!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 07/09/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

It's a good thing that that's not what people are pushing for then with the public option.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 AM on 07/10/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

ALL health care is rationed, and socialized health care will benefit YOU more than you know, you are sadly, and badly misinformed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 07/10/2009
- sagmann I'm a Fan of sagmann 2 fans permalink
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DelawareVol, the only thing rationed here is your intelligence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:07 AM on 07/10/2009
- yorkriver1 I'm a Fan of yorkriver1 3 fans permalink

We need to transform the way we deal with our health, not just argue about how to pay for the crazy system we have now. Healthcare as we know it was taken over by marketing forces for drug companies and health care provider groups during the 70's & early 80's, according to Thomas J. Moore in his book "Who Lives Longer, and Why".
I was very interested in his outline of the plans made by a well meaning crusader, wife of an advertising executive, for the system as we now know it. Profits are generated by creating cash cow treatment protocols for invented problems. Supposedly neutral non-profit organizations are created and largely supported by drug company money. Contact one of them, and you will be given the advice that this or that drug is part of the treatment protocol preferred by most doctors, etc.......
Research shows that much of the "preventive" treatment delivered now doesn't actually prevent disease or lower health care costs.
We need much more such research to determine what treatment makes sense.
Medicine is reduced to diagnosing and drugging far too often.
We could reduce costs quite a lot if everyone ate better and exercised.
Some kind of universal coverage makes sense, but our current way of delivery seems unsustainable. Let's just speculate that our current system began to "ration" certain procedures.
Just as when gas prices went to $4.00/gallon, people began to modify their behavior and look diligently for alternative solutions.
We are there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 PM on 07/09/2009
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I you eat healthier, walk all the new bike paths, etc, you become even more of a burden on the government because you draw Social Security for years longer.

And then eventually you are overcome by the normal aging process, prostate cancer, breast cancer, or some sort of communicable disease and rack up enormous medical bills in the last 6 months of life anyway.

You're merely delaying the inevitable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

Do you have a suggestion or are you here to just argue against anything but the status quo? Just curious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 PM on 07/09/2009
- Toxictort I'm a Fan of Toxictort 16 fans permalink
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Listen to wal-Rush much or are you he in disquise?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 AM on 07/10/2009
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What's your point?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:19 AM on 07/10/2009
- AlsoSarah I'm a Fan of AlsoSarah 78 fans permalink
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I just want to know why Floppsy always starts a comment with a "sigh".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:45 PM on 07/09/2009

I want to know why anybody bothers with his posts at all. Wait, no I don't even want know that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 PM on 07/09/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 373 fans permalink
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too late....

Because they're compelling and challenging to the Pr0gressive narrative.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 07/10/2009
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Problem: We spend too much on health care.

Solution: Raise taxes and spend more!

Brilliant!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 07/09/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

Your post shows a basic lack of understanding of the facts of the issue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 PM on 07/09/2009
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So you truly believe that we need to continue spending double what other countries do, allow medical inflation to continue at 6-10% per year over the next decade, AND dump $1 trillion more tax dollars into the system?

Where's the savings, again?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 07/09/2009
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Go tell that to California

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 07/09/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

How bout raise taxes and spend less? Say your taxes go up a few hundred a year. But yet you pay nothing for you healthcare which cost you and your company thousands of dollars a year. That would mean you spend less not more.
At least try to make a coherent argument next time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 PM on 07/09/2009
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Link ONE analysis that shows prices going DOWN.

No such thing exists. You're not talking about reality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 07/10/2009
- 2garen I'm a Fan of 2garen 13 fans permalink
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Lots of solutions 1 Get rid of the law the Republicans enacted during the Bush Administration that states the Government is not allowed to negotiate for Medications. 2 Standardize all the forms etc.
3.Audit where the money is going ,Independantly.4.Preventative care. 5 With prenatal care would come a class on child hood developement, diet, and education. Of course if someone has more than one child and has attended the classes before they would not have to attend only if they wished for an update etc.
6.Preventative classes and care. Educate, Educate, and Educate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:02 AM on 07/10/2009
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LemonMeringue I'm a Fan of LemonMeringue I'm a fan of this user permalink
No Child Left Behind is the worst thing to happen to public education since busing in the sixties.

Go take the bill up with it's sponsor - TED KENNEDY

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 PM on 07/09/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

It wasn't necessarily the bill that was the problem. Sure there were short comings, but that's what comes from bipartisan support. The problem with No Child Left Behind was the lack of funding by the GOP majority. Thats what the GOP do. Bitch that government is useless, then unercut and underfund everything so that it proves them right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 PM on 07/09/2009

It's amazing, liberals and teachers always complain about NCLB.... I guess they hate that Teachers actually get held accountable for children progressing and learning....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 AM on 07/10/2009
- Ruh17 I'm a Fan of Ruh17 5 fans permalink

That wasn't the problem that people have with it at all. But it's a easy straw man argument for you to have. One of the problems with it is that it forces teachers to teach to a test rather then teaching to get a better understanding of things. Another problem is that it was hugely underfunded. How can you expect teachers to teach things when they aren't given the necessary tools to provide that knowledge? Another problem is that the money that does go into the system isn't evenly dispersed. Why does a school with 500 students get the same amount of money as a school with 3000 students?
It has zero to do with holding teachers accountable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 AM on 07/10/2009
- Max01 I'm a Fan of Max01 5 fans permalink

Kwazy tr011, parents have been complaining about NCLB.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 AM on 07/10/2009
- 2garen I'm a Fan of 2garen 13 fans permalink
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No child left behind was the brain child of the Bush Administration.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:04 AM on 07/10/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 373 fans permalink
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.... and Senator Ted Kennedy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:12 AM on 07/10/2009
- Phxflyer I'm a Fan of Phxflyer 78 fans permalink
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Obama needs to use his bully pulpit to go after the blue dogs. They're on the losing end of this, and he needs to remind them of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 PM on 07/09/2009

Uh, no my friend, it would appear that liberals in favor of destruction of our healthcare are actually on the losing end of this bill... Sorry pal!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 07/10/2009
- dave1111 I'm a Fan of dave1111 41 fans permalink

Our health care system is currently on an unsustainable path. Reforms, such as a public option, or even better, a single payer, are long overdue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:06 AM on 07/10/2009
- Max01 I'm a Fan of Max01 5 fans permalink

Sorry, pal, you and your neocons..strong on the con...brought this country to its knees.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 AM on 07/10/2009
- mightyhead I'm a Fan of mightyhead 10 fans permalink
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All the money we need to pay for health care is sitting right in front of them - just take it out of the obscene margins that have been made by the health insurance mafia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 PM on 07/09/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 373 fans permalink
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sigh.

If you take the profit motive out of health care... why would anyone want to work in the industry?

In the UK they import their doctors and nurses from Botswana & Bangladesh (and elsewhere) because the pasty-white middle class doesn't want to work in some dull government bureaucracy for the rest of their lives and make government bureaucracy salaries.

Perhaps you should use that mightyhead of yours a little more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 PM on 07/09/2009
- rogi99 I'm a Fan of rogi99 2 fans permalink

While profit is the engine of the capitalist society, there are three professions (aka callings!) that should NEVER be allowed to depend on profit: physician (and other health care), teacher and priest. Profit as a motive in any of these three professions is, to say the least, morally repugnant!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

You don't take the profit motive out of the healthcare industry. You take it out of the insurance industry. Big difference.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 PM on 07/09/2009
- mightyhead I'm a Fan of mightyhead 10 fans permalink
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I didn't say to take it out of the health care industry, and I fail to see the downside of your argument anyway, though the implied racism is evident.

My point is that pure capitalism is predatory in nature, and nowhere is that more obvious than in the health insurance industry. Predatory and grossly inefficient in providing care as well.

It appears that the conservative viewpoint is that the free market is sacrosanct regardless of the cost in human suffering, and that is beyond my ken.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 07/11/2009
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Medicare drastically overspends for their coverage, and their margins are only 3%. You're chasing a phantom.

The problem is the underlying cost of care, dictated by the for-profit doctors, hospitals, pharma, and device manufacturers, and the standard of care, dictated by the AMA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

You're wrong. Drug companies control the costs and insurance companies make it hard enough for the doctors to get reimbursed (if at all) that they end up charging more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:55 PM on 07/09/2009
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Why does anyone argue with dental floss? Dental floss is not very smart. And it probably gets paid by the response.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 PM on 07/09/2009
- AlsoSarah I'm a Fan of AlsoSarah 78 fans permalink
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Haha. Point taken.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 PM on 07/09/2009
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KrugnacTheMagnificent

"Break it down by county...

Blue counties get 50% more welfare than reds."

bascombe

"you can put up some actual numbers instead of spouting {#|+."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-07-08-redblue_N.htm

"From 2005 through 2007, the counties that later voted for Obama collected about 50% more government aid than those that supported McCain, according to spending reports from the U.S. Census Bureau."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

Big western states like Texas and Oklahoma receive government funds whereas blue states like NY pay out more than they get back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 PM on 07/09/2009
- jwredd I'm a Fan of jwredd 53 fans permalink

And there ain't nobody voting for Obama out there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 PM on 07/09/2009
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The blue states pay more in taxes than they receive in federal benefits.

The red states take in more welfare than they pay in taxes. Including Alaska.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 PM on 07/09/2009
- PATina I'm a Fan of PATina 252 fans permalink
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Could it be because "blue" counties have more people as they tend to be more urban areas.... and "red" counties are more rural and less populated?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 PM on 07/09/2009
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Naw, just welfare queens, addicted to nanny government assistance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:40 PM on 07/09/2009
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It's per capita, so no.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 PM on 07/09/2009
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Doh! people in blue counties make more..... not following? ok, a big part of the stimulus package was for extending unemployment benefits... still not following? wow.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:24 AM on 07/10/2009
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