Chuck Todd And Glenn Greenwald Debate Torture And The Media

I've been remiss in not following up on the podcast discussion that Salon's Glenn Greenwald and MSNBC's Chuck Todd gave yesterday, that I previewed on these pages. I got a lot of emails from people who found the discussion to be really lively and valuable. I've only read the transcript myself, but I was really impressed at how engrossing and candid it was. Both men deserve big-time kudos for making this happen, and getting it done so quickly.

If you haven't listened to it by now, you can catch the podcast here, or peep the transcript by clicking here.

Folks know where I stand on the issue of torture and accountability -- including Glenn and Chuck-- so I'm not going to get into a prosecution of either argument. But I'll pull one part out:

GG: Let me ask you about that, then. If a president can find, as a president always will be able to find, some low-level functionary in the Justice Department -- a John Yoo -- to write a memo authorizing whatever it is the president wants to do, and to say that it's legal, then you think the president ought to be immune from prosecution whenever he breaks the law, as long as he has a permission slip from the Justice Department? I mean, that's the argument that's being made. Don't you think that's extremely dangerous?

CT: That could be dangerous, but let me tell you this: Is it healthy for our reputation around the world - and this I think is that we have TO do what other countries do more often than not, so-called democracies that struggle with their democracy, and sit there and always PUT the previous administration on trial - you don't think that we start having retributions on this going forward?

Look, I am no way excusing torture. I'm not excusing torture, and I bristle at the attack when it comes on this specific issue. But I think the political reality in this, and, I understand where you're coming from, you're just saying, just because something's politically tough doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. That's, I don't disagree with you from 30,000 feet. And that is an idealistic view of this thing. Then you have the realistic view of how this town works, and what would happen, and is it good for our reputation around the world if we're essentially putting on trial the previous administration? We would look at another country doing that, and say, geez, boy, this is--

GG: So what do you think happens - I think what has destroyed our reputation is announcing to the world that we tolerate torture, and telling the world we don't --

CT: We have elections, we also had an election where this was an issue. A new president, who came in there, and has said, we're not going to torture, we're going to do this, and we're going to do this--

GG: What do you think should happen when presidents--

CT: Is that not enough? Isn't that enough?

GG: When, generally, if I go out and rob a bank tomorrow, what happens to me is not that I lose an election. What happens is to me is that I go to prison.

All I can say is that if John Yoo wants to do me a solid, it'd be really cool of him to whip up some "Jason Is Allowed To Knock Over One Or Two Jewelry Stores" memos.

[Would you like to follow me on Twitter? Because why not? Also, please send tips to [e-mail] -- learn more about our media monitoring project here.]

Comments

[NotMcCain]

Greenwald has the stronger case and is arguing with the weaker intellect.

I'd rather see a better match -- progressive v. progessive and someone who takes the CT position but with some support from reason, history, and ethics (if there actually IS some).

[BethS]

Chuck Todd-sending a boy to do a man's job. Chuck-go be a reporter in the world. Get some experience. I tell you, MSNBC, FOX, CNN - all just whores. It is about fame, fortune, and exposure. The people suffer-we are ill-informed, divided, and personality driven. Mr. Cronkite-please come back as yourself-a qualifed provider of the news. We are dire need!

[113]

we need an edward r murrow nowadays too

[Mauiboy]

There are bigger fish to fry right now and the Prez does not want to get off message. The GOP would like nothing better than to have this discussion instead of dealing with the economy, health care and their floundering poll numbers. Obama needs support on both sides of the isle. There will be a time and place for taking a second look at torture, spying and the abuse of the Constitution, but that time is not now. It took years to prosecute those at Nuremberg and look what got accomplished then.

[myshadow]

They were hung in October of 1946

[rich misty]

The wheels of justice turn slow enough as it is. Dems can multi-task. Republicans have every excuse in the book, but they don't have a case.

[swift goat pet for truth]

IF one believes in the Rule of Law, there is no bigger fish to fry.
Not the economy. Not "National Security".

Without the Rule of Law, we are just another country that does what ever is convenient.
Our economy is based on a Rule of Law, that our markets can be relied on, that no one will break the rules at will.
Our security is based on a Rule of Law, that no one is imprisoned or tortured because of some suspicion one person may have for any crazy reason.

Holding the Rule of Law is not idealistic. It is practical.

[focher]

It's no surprise that any of the mainstream media members - Chuck Todd being a clear example - who sat back and either looked the other way or implicitly supported the Bush administration's position that it was not violating the law would argue against holding the politicians accountable. That would make him accountable for sitting and continually failing to argue against the behavior.

He still treats the topic as one of being a policy disagreement instead of a violation of the law. You don't prosecute people because they pursued a different policy, you prosecute them when it is apparent that they broke a law. Torture was, by absolutely no arguable fact, against the law.

[dteg]

Co-Sign

[synchronicity2]

Chuck Todd was on the losing side of the argument no matter word. People all over the world need to see that our democracy works and that the previous tyrants will be held accountable for the crimes they have committed. Other countries need to see that criminals even if they are powerful leaders, will be held accountable and suffer consequences.

Not holding them accountable sets the precedent that we are not a democracy and the leaders of our country are actually tyrants. Our govt doesn't look much better than Iran's otherwise.

[SeriousBlack]

And... If the roles were reversed and it had been a Democratic administration that had done ONE TENTH of the things that the Bush/Cheney cabal did, and the next administration was a Republican one with a huge majority in the House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate...

Who here doubts that that Republican administration would be going after every single Democrat who had participated in any of those activities with a zeal that would make the Salem witch hunts look quaint?

[rich misty]

Fanned and faved

[sviolette]

Chuck Todd get his butt handed to him as anyone that tolerates torture should.

[dolphy]

Chuck Todd is bought and sold, lost his soul, has no ethics, etc. etc.

[Tulka2]

Oh, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck. You are entirely too cozy with the powers that be and forgive them way too much.

Todd is not very deep, is he? He hasn't read much history and i doubt he knows much about how we are feeling out here in fly-over country. No. It's not enough that we throw the bums out. No, we don't just prosecute the little problems of graft and corruption. No. We must prosecute the big confounding crimes. Of course we must. This is America.

[deadcustodian]

Yes!

Of course we must prosecute the big confounding crimes.

Thank you.

[vonPinto]

Yeah, I never realized how shallow and superficial CT is until they took those polls prediction charts away from him.

He needs to be relocated to the back office where he will not be allowed to air his sometimes wacky views on national events. Most times, CT does not make sense. He seem to always be talking to himself and his inflated sense of importance. ("Oh, I can now shape national opinion with my comments). Damn it.

To make matters worse, CT thinks he is brilliant. Whoever is telling CT that he is brilliant is not serving him well.

[LemonMeringue]

This torture stuff is going to festure and leak out and keep America soulsick until someone has the courage to open it up and DEAL WITH IT.

Americans can handle the truth. We are not doing very well handling lies. We have had to deal with lies for two Bush terms and we do not deserve to be lied to for another administration.

[LemonMeringue]

fester (good grie)

[talkinhedz]

My god..Torture? The left Blamed Bush for not doing Enough to prevent 911, even though he had been in office less than 9 months. Now as I see it, He did what was needed and Scolded for..and you all want to boo hoo...I hope I never get in a fox hole with you lightweights!

[ObamanextPresident]

You'll have your circular argument to keep you company in that fox hole.

[sviolette]

I wouldn't want your torturing mind in my fox hole. It's people like you that get your fellow soldiers tortured and murdered and treated like the animal that you are.

[rangermac]

If you were in a foxhole with me, or any of the men I served with in the 82nd, we'd explain to you that if our government tortures then it increases the chance that we will be mistreated if we were ever captured. If you ever went to SERE school with me, you would know that torture is much less effective than simple brainwashing techniques that the Chinese used with great effectiveness during the Korean war. Since you were never a veteran, I'll just say with full confidence that you hate the troops because you are advocating that they suffer for no good reason.

[madisonhack]

Chuck Todd, President Obama, and Eric Holder may want us to look forward and simplify things, but the American public is outraged that we have done and are continuing to do these things in our name. This torture stuff is not going to go away - someone will eventually go to jail for it.

[sviolette]

The problem is it's never the people that are responsible that get jail time.

[madisonhack]

Yes, I know. This time, I hope it's different., though. There is quite a lot of anger out there about this ....

[AceInTheHole]

Poor Mr. Todd, this gentleman has been compromised and a little conflicted out of his wits for a long time now, and I actually feel sorry for him. I believe that in his core, he's a pretty decent guy but he needs the work. lol

[lochnessmonster]

Isn't the current form of "media" a form of torture?

[loisinthepink]

Yes

[talkinhedz]

I concur

[Cyclone]

I hope Todd reads these comments. When he was a regular doing stats on C-Span's Washington Journal he said he was a Democrat. I was surprised because I had no idea what his party afilliation was. He's come a long way since those days but he's gone in the wrong direction.

[renatam]

He lied. His wife was an operative for John McCain, and...his (often incoherent) commentary...is conservative and/or supportive of Republicans - (and HRC) during the Campaign(s).

What does he take us for?

[thinkb4uleapII]

Yup, I agree... I find him to be very much an apologetic for the conservative agenda.

The discussion he had on Morning Joe which fueled the debate between him and Glen Grenwald is case-in-point. During that broadcast he was clearly articulating a right-wing position on the "torture debate" and got enthusiastic support from Mika B. and Pat Buchanan. Later, in his podcast conversation with Glen Grenwald he attempted to reverse engineer his position to make it seem as if he was only echoing sentiments held by many, including many in the Obama administration. I give him credit for debating G. G. but found his arguments disingenuous at best.

[myshadow]

What is your source she worked for mccain?

Kristian Denny Todd past relationships:
1998 Fritz Hollings Senate campaign - press secretary
2003 Bob Graham presidential campaign - national spokesperson
2006 James H. Webb Senate campaign - senior communications strategist
Atlantic Media Group - public relations director
Gary A. Condit - aide
Patty Murray - press secretary

Personally, I think todd became a good little villager when he sold his soul to GE
He has sounded more and more republican as time has passed.

[Cyclone]

Thanks renatam, posters here are always so well informed.

Now that I think about it he became very defensive about some McCaine criticism during the campaign. It was extremely odd for a guy who was just doing statistics. Now I know why.

[zizyphus]

To Chuck Todd's way of thinking, any crime is permissible, if committed by a President or Vice-President, evidently. We should just keep looking ahead, to the new, as yet uncommitted crimes, I guess.

There is no excuse for not upholding the law.

We don't care about the comfort zone in DC, Todd. People want truth and justice.

[renatam]

Which makes my point that he is, a closeted Republican...trying to morph, but doing it very badly.

[thebigmouth]

Could anyone point me to one major story that Todd has broke.

It's GE they bring good things to life! Like Morning Joe

[cliffhammond]

He was sweating bullets during the 2008 returns when it appeared that McCain was going down big time.