Senate To Vote On Concealed Weapons Measure

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JIM ABRAMS | 07/22/09 07:07 PM | AP

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WASHINGTON — The Senate on Wednesday rejected letting people carry hidden guns in 48 states if they have a concealed weapon permit in any one of them, a rare victory for gun control advocates in a Democratic-controlled Congress that has been friendly to the gun lobby.

Opponents said it would force states with tough concealed weapon permit restrictions to let in gun carriers from states that give permits to convicted criminals, minors and people with no firearms training.

"It's extremely dangerous policy," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., noting that her state demands fingerprinting, federal background checks, a course of training, and verification by a local sheriff before issuing a permit to carry a concealed gun.

A strong majority of the Senate, in a 58-39 vote, supported the measure, which would require most states to honor the concealed weapons permits issued by other states. But the tally was two votes short of the 60 votes needed to add the measure as an amendment to a defense bill.

Twenty Democrats, mainly from western or rural states, joined all but two Republicans in voting for the measure, which was promoted by the National Rifle Association and other gun rights groups. They included Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada and both Democratic senators from Colorado, Arkansas, Montana, North Dakota and Virginia.

There were also notable defections. Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., and Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Pa., who voted to strip the District of Columbia of its gun control laws last February, opposed the concealed weapon measure. Specter was a Republican at the time of the previous vote.

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, a pro-gun rights Democrat who faces a primary challenge next year in a state with strong gun control sentiments, also opposed it. "I strongly believe that the gun laws that are right for New York are not necessarily right for South Dakota, and vice versa," she said.

NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre told The Associated Press that, despite the defeat, the vote showed that "we have the wind to our back." He called the vote "one more step down the road to allowing all Americans the full measure of Second Amendment protection."

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Those who opposed it, LaPierre warned, "will see it reflected in support from their constituents."

The chief sponsor of the measure, South Dakota Republican John Thune, said it would reduce crime by allowing law-abiding citizens such as truck drivers to protect themselves as they travel from one state to another.

Opponents cited incidents they said proved the opposite.

Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., mentioned a Washington state man given a concealed weapons permit despite a history of drug addiction and schizophrenia who in 2008 shot and wounded three people at a public festival. In 2007 a Cincinnati woman with a permit to carry a concealed weapon shot and killed a panhandler who asked her for 25 cents at a gas station, he said.

The Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, released a study this week finding that concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens during the two-year period ending in April.

"The hard facts are that concealed handgun permit holders do not prevent mass shootings, they perpetrate them," said Kristen Rand, the center's legislative director.

Concealed weapons are allowed in 48 states. Alaska and Vermont allow any gun owner to carry a concealed gun. Wisconsin and Illinois don't allow them at all, except for law enforcement officers. The other 46 states require permits to carry a concealed gun.

Durbin noted that 11 states and the District of Columbia have laws that ban reciprocity with other states, laws that would be overriden by the Thune amendment.

Thune's proposal would extend reciprocity to states that have carry laws, with the condition that visitors to another state follow the laws of that state, such as restrictions on concealed weapons in bars or restaurants. He stressed that it would not set up a national permit standard.

Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said his state, with its more stringent requirements for a concealed weapon, should not have to accept gun carriers from states with few or no restrictions.

Thune responded that "Central Park will be a much safer place" if someone from South Dakota could carry a gun in the New York City park.

Feinstein said California, the nation's most populous state, has issued about 40,000 concealed gun permits, while Florida has issued 580,000 and Georgia 300,000. Thune said about 5 million people nationwide have concealed weapons permits.

Last February the Senate voted 62-36 to eliminate most of the District of Columbia's strict gun control laws. In May, President Barack Obama signed into law a consumer credit card act that also restored the rights of people to carry loaded weapons in national parks. Sixty-seven senators voted for that gun amendment.

Congress has also ignored requests from Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder that it revive a ban on military-style weapons that expired in 2004.

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On the Net:

Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov

WASHINGTON — The Senate on Wednesday rejected letting people carry hidden guns in 48 states if they have a concealed weapon permit in any one of them, a rare victory for gun control advocates in...
WASHINGTON — The Senate on Wednesday rejected letting people carry hidden guns in 48 states if they have a concealed weapon permit in any one of them, a rare victory for gun control advocates in...
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- RayinDC I'm a Fan of RayinDC 7 fans permalink

www.MySpace.com/Newsericks blog on national concealed carry:
Good job Senator Schumer (D-New York)!
You led the (narrow) win
Over NRA’s attempt to override State laws
And let national concealed carry in.
All but 2 Republicans voted yes
Though they’re supposedly for States’ rights.
Never mind local governments, police, and citizens
Would suffer through the additional gunfights.

And you 20 gun-loving and/or cowardly Dems
Who also supported the measure,
When are you going to stop
Voting at the NRA’s pleasure?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:39 PM on 07/29/2009
- Dailyfare I'm a Fan of Dailyfare 2 fans permalink

This is an idiotic and unnecessary bill. The citizens of this country have an amoral obsession with guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 PM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

Both premises are wrong unless you have some statistically valid research and/or logical reasoning to back them up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 07/22/2009
- PWM I'm a Fan of PWM 255 fans permalink
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300 million guns and the highest murder rate in the western world speaks volumes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 07/22/2009
- motoboy I'm a Fan of motoboy 10 fans permalink
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Democrats have just spit in the faces of the most honest and trustworthy demographic in the US: concealed firearm permit holders.

Criminals don't go down and give their fingerprints and picture, get background checked, take classroom training and demonstrate proficienc­y.........­and pay a hefty fee every 4 or 5 years for the right to carry a gun for self-protection. Concealed carry permit holders have a considerably lower crime rate than cops.

Democrats just gave the Republican party its first big issue to use in the next Congressional election.

When will they ever learn?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 PM on 07/22/2009
- Eykis I'm a Fan of Eykis 285 fans permalink

You have got to be kidding? The Rethugs have no power and we have all the obstructions to foist upon the airwaves for election time, along with the BIGOTRY, RACISM, SEDITION, and a host of other Rethug issues.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 07/22/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

motoboy is stating the facts correctly--even 5 to 10% of the adult population carrying concealed has a big effect on criminals because armed and trained victims are very dangerous to said criminals

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 07/26/2009

Most of the stuff you wrote is wrong - some states give out permits to any and all. This legislation would mean that all states are FORCED to follow the same laws as even the laxest states. That might be fine for you but the reason that a lot of states have strict laws is THE PEOPLE IN THAT STATE want it that way. Why should they be forced to suspend these laws for the minority of people who want to carry a concealed weapon every place they go?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 07/22/2009
- PWM I'm a Fan of PWM 255 fans permalink
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That's what I call Question Begging.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:28 PM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

No, that IS the question. "Begging the question" means a STATEMENT just made DEMANDS a follow-on question. Sorry, for the grammar lesson. No offense intended.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:32 PM on 07/22/2009
- OMG1109 I'm a Fan of OMG1109 18 fans permalink

From Crooks and Liars
http://crooksandliars.com/

As I was pleased to note last night in an update, pressure from the Netroots was instrumental in getting Sens. McCaskill (D-MO) and Specter (D-PA) to come out against the Thune Amendment, an assault on federalism, personal security and the proposition that Dems might actually stand up for something.

The vote is at noon. Keep your calls coming, as we are on the cusp of wining this one and saving countless lives, not to mention shutting down a key element of the right-wing machine in DC: The NRA.

Here are your numbers once again:

Those whose minds need to be changed

Bayh (D IN) 202-224-5623
Bennet (D CO) (202) 224-5852
Collins (R ME) (202) 224-2523
Conrad (D ND) (202) 224-2043
Feingold (D WI) 202/224-5323
Hagan (D NC) 202-224-6342
Landrieu (D LA) (202)224-5824
Lincoln (D AR) (202) 224-4843
McCain (R- AZ) (202) 224-2235
Pryor (D-AR) (202) 224-2353
Reid (D " NV) 202-224-3542
Snowe (R " ME) (202) 224-5344
Udall (D " NM) 202-224-6621
Udall (D " CO) 202-224-5941
Voinovich (R- OH) (202) 224-3353
Warner (D " VA) 202-224-2023
Webb (D "VA) 202-224-4024

Those we must hold:

Kohl (D " WI) (202) 224-5653
Klobuchar (D " MN) 202-224-3244
Nelson (D - FL) 202-224-5274

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 AM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

Wrong. The bill is common sense legislation and provides security for the "common good".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 07/22/2009
- scrzbill I'm a Fan of scrzbill 70 fans permalink
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To hell with states rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 07/22/2009
- Darthwave I'm a Fan of Darthwave 13 fans permalink
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I agree. Those whose minds need to be changed. Sounds like a bit like a Nazi. Shouldn't senators vote the way their constituents want them too. Both my senators from VA did so they did as their voters wished. What’s wrong with that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 PM on 07/22/2009
- PWM I'm a Fan of PWM 255 fans permalink
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What common sense? States need to decide the issue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:29 PM on 07/22/2009
- Sinick I'm a Fan of Sinick 7 fans permalink
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Our pols have nothing better to do? Campaign dollars from the health care monopoly tapering off a bit? Attach it to another bill? Our pols are useless and it seems that Republicans in particular are determined to relegate themselves to the dust bins of history.

If indeed this nation is so obsessed with guns, why don't we open a taxpayer-funded target practice range/training center in Afghanistan that is rife with recruiters? Put those privately-owned assault weapons to their intended use and conceal as many weapons as you want. Unlimited ammo to boot!

I'm afraid there needs to be a bit of re-training though. While a significant number of domestic gun owners have honed their shooting skills firing at stationary targets from a moving vehicle, the tables will be turned in Afghanistan.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 AM on 07/22/2009
- Chaimirija I'm a Fan of Chaimirija 56 fans permalink
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Hey, you want to carry a gun around, fine. But one should have it on display. A big problem with America is the culture of other regions is not taken into consideration. I now live in a not so populous part of the country, and everyone seems to have gun around here. And there really is NOT that much violence..­.but I grew up in a heavily populated region of the country, of course strict gun laws, and the violence is pretty apalling. They passed the laws in response to the violence.

Gun laws need to be kept under the control of the states.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:04 AM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

MANY gun laws ARE in control of the states and this right will not be abrogated under this bill. I don't think you mean that ALL gun laws should be relegated to State authority. Man, that would put the FBI, DEA, ATF, et. al, out of business REAL fast.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 07/22/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

Where I have a problem with the "states rights" argument is that is not legit that states violate someone's rights--if it is wrong for the feds to disarm someone who has been convicted of nothing and has not been declare a danger to themselves or another (the issue at issue in Heller)--it is equally wrong for CHicago or San Francisco to do the same thing

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 07/26/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"Hey, you want to carry a gun around, fine. But one should have it on display."

Yah, so the criminals know who is a safe target and who isn't. Defeats the purpose of concealed carry where the criminals don't know and have to take their chances.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 07/22/2009
- Eykis I'm a Fan of Eykis 285 fans permalink

If you actually walk around and live in America and worry who is going to shoot at you, you are one of the "bad guys". In 2009 people do not need to carry guns around. It is utterly ridiculous.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 PM on 07/22/2009
- Chaimirija I'm a Fan of Chaimirija 56 fans permalink
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Well, there you have it. We do not health reform because it is guns that save lives, not quality medical care. Phew, glad I found this out...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 07/22/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

sorry--firearms and healthcare/health insurance reform are solutions to different problems--I have a clear preference for the victims to be able to defend themselves against criminals

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:45 AM on 07/26/2009
- alwqb I'm a Fan of alwqb 18 fans permalink
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Oh Please Dear God, Do Not Let This Happen! What have we become as a society that permits anyone to carry a gun? GUNS KILL, that's all. No one is using a gun to defend themselves, they are using guns to shoot down people they don't like and to kill the police who try to stop them. America is doomed if this bill passes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 AM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

What? You must be kidding. Let's see: Police carry guns in America, Military carry guns in america and are authorized to use them in our defense abroad and within our boarders (National Guard)..I don't follow your logic. Guns are only instruments and cannot kill unless there is a person attached to it who harbors 'bad intentions'. Are you saying that ALL legally licensed CCW permit holders are rampantly killing police and people they don't like? Therefore, this will continue unabated if this bill is passed? You lost me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 07/22/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

of course alwqb is claiming just that--last time I checked licensed CCW holders tend to be even more lawabiding than LEOs and as evidenced by places like DC, Chicago and South Central Los Angeles--the lack of a "license" will not keep criminals from packing

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 AM on 07/26/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

God expects you to DEFEND yourself and your family by any means necessary. If you would like scripture from the Bible that states this, I will provide it. BTW, don't try to use Jesus' words regarding "..turning the other cheek" to bolster your argument against guns. That verse is misinterpreted 99% of the time by people not well-versed in the original Hebrew and Greek translations of the Bible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:38 PM on 07/22/2009
- scrzbill I'm a Fan of scrzbill 70 fans permalink
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Doesn't the bible say something about stoning people, cutting off limbs? Where in the bible does it talk about guns? You want to live by the bible? Love your enemies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 PM on 07/22/2009
- PWM I'm a Fan of PWM 255 fans permalink
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Bull. Jesus also said not to resist evil, to turn the other cheek, and to give to all who ask. If you don't believe him, fine, but don't pretend he didn't mean what he said.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 PM on 07/22/2009
- ajm8127 I'm a Fan of ajm8127 2 fans permalink

What happened to the GOP being for state's rights?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:33 AM on 07/22/2009

Dont you know? They have NO morals NO principles and NO clue

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:26 PM on 07/22/2009
- lapdogs I'm a Fan of lapdogs 15 fans permalink
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Amazing how your view of states rights changes in Congress, when The NRA funds your campaign.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 PM on 07/22/2009
- PWM I'm a Fan of PWM 255 fans permalink
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They sell out to the highest bidder, like Reagan sold out to the religious right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 07/22/2009
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

states do not have "rights", states have "powers" and it is not within the legitimate use of a state's power to violate someone's constitutionally protected rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 PM on 07/26/2009
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This is very bad, bad law. And let me say first, I love me some guns. They are fun to shoot and there are good reasons to have concealed carry.

But this law is freaking crap.

Republicans love to talk about state's right... until they want to walk right over them. Hypocrites again, and this time there wasn't even Another Woman. At least they can do variety. Anyway, this stomps all over a state's right. The individual states are the ones who should decide if they recognize CC laws.

Make no joke about it, this would be a federal conceal carry law. All you would have to do is be licensed in a fairly lax state, and then you could take that gun anywhere. As soon as one state gives CC to out of state residents, done.

There really is no nuance, no maybes, no nothing about this law. It's crap and an abuse of federal powers.

Shame on John Thune and the bill's other supporters. This is one reason why it's so hard to find Democratic 2nd Amendment supporters like myself. The Republicans do it in such inappropriate ways that we can't deal with them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:44 AM on 07/22/2009
- Disciple1 I'm a Fan of Disciple1 8 fans permalink

You current can't carry concealed and protect yourself and your family when you travel to New York and Illinois even if you are from Kansas and possess a CCW--so that's o.k. with you? But you agree there are good reasons to carry concealed. Oh, I see, you just won't travel to those states for ANY reason. You win--I'm confused. Where do you REALLY stand on this?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 PM on 07/22/2009

The issue aside, the system should be changed so that it would be impossible to attach unrelated measures to legislation like this defense bill. Let the issues stand or fall on their own merits.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 AM on 07/22/2009
- BigShotBob I'm a Fan of BigShotBob 7 fans permalink
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This is ridiculous, and for me, not even a gun control issue. I read the 2nd Amendment to confirm a personal right to keep and bear arms. But if the people of California do not want to grant concealed carry permits to certain types of criminals, they should not have to compromise those beliefs based on what South Carolinians find "reasonable". Just another example of Washington's (not Republicans' or Democrats') complete disregard for the sad and threadbare remnants of federalism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 AM on 07/22/2009
- me again I'm a Fan of me again 29 fans permalink

Why does Harry Reid even let this thing come to the floor of the Senate, what a waste of the tax [payers time. The Republicans who are so pro-states rights when it comes to abortion, now wants guns controlled at a Federal level. The sad thing is none of these pro-gun GOP senators have had to deal with the loss of a close family member, or friend to the horros of gun violence. Perhaps they should think back to the tragedy that befell their great modern leader Ronald Reagan....­.

Frankly anyone seeking to own a gun should go through a battery of psychological tests and there should be strict limitations on the types of guns owned. Gun shows need to be outlawed, as they allow the worst of society easy access to firearms. Pistols need to be strictly regulated. Concealment of weapons should be outlawed everywhere except for law enforcement.

The second amendment of the Constitution had a time and a place, If the framers had the foresight to see what has happened, perhaps they would have written it differently.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 07/22/2009
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