Real Canadians Stick Up For Universal Health Care

Amid all the hyperbole in the ongoing debate about the future of American health care, some of the most extreme public disagreements are over the experiences of our neighbors to the North, in Canada.

Many progressives say the Canadian system of universal care is an excellent role model for our own country. The the upfront costs of establishing such a system, they argue, would eventually be offset by the competitive advantages to American business.

By contrast, American conservatives see the Canadian approach as signifying the end of the freedom to choose your own doctor, the rationing of crucial treatments, and an enormous tax burden.

The argument has played out in congressional hearings, in full-page ads in national newspapers, online and in television commercials.

To see how well a universal health care system like Canada's actually works, the Huffington Post went straight to the source: actual Canadians.

In a decidedly unscientific survey, we emailed about a dozen Canadians with three basic questions, requesting they respond and pass the survey on. We asked which system they would prefer -- their system of universal care, or the U.S. system dominated by private insurers. In addition, we asked them to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the Canadian system. And some respondents volunteered personal stories about how they have been treated.

All of the two dozen people who wrote in said they preferred Canadian health care system.

"Anyone who cries 'Socialism!' or 'Communism!' to prevent Americans from achieving universal health care is a liar and a thief -- and more to the point, has plenty of money of his own. He's got his!" wrote Lori Covington. "I just hope the American people won't be dumb enough to continue falling for the line that socialized health care means a loss of personal freedom. In fact, it's quite the opposite."

From Nova Scotia, Maureen Moffatt wrote: "I have seen American politicians speak about our system. Just because something doesn't work perfectly in other countries should not be used as support for the status quo in the U.S."

Respondents wrote that no health care system is perfect. The weaknesses of the Canadian system, they said, includes the need to wait for elective surgery, occasional lines in emergency rooms and a shortage of general practitioners and nurses in some provinces. But all felt that security of knowing that you have health care despite your employment situation more than compensated for the disadvantages.

Canada's universal heath care, wrote Peter Puxley, "still falls short in using medical resources efficiently. The use of electronic records is not widespread enough, specialists, family doctors, nurse practitioners, paramedics, etc are not yet organized into the multifaceted health units that the system now envisages to distribute the burden of care more effectively, but that is coming."

Despite the inefficiencies, Puxley would not want to switch to the system in use across the border. "No one is denied care because of an inability to pay," he continued. "I have never been without care when needed. I don't have to worry about my family's needs in that respect either. Nor is my care dependent on my employer."

Many of our respondents took the position that universal health care is an issue of human rights. "A major strength of our system is accessibility," Covington wrote. "I think it is worth paying higher taxes for universal health care. I think access to universal health care should be a universal right."

David Likely, a retired psychologist living in New Brunswick, wrote about the treatment he received for a near-fatal heart attack seven years ago -- treatment he said would have been provided to any Canadian. "Our federal program is a strong unifying influence across the country, encouraging (nearly) equal treatment of people who live in richer or poorer provinces or territories."

Likely needed surgery for a pacemaker and spent two weeks in the hospital recovering. Two years later, he was again hospitalized, that time for diabetes. Those problems, combined with regular preventive care, would have exceeded his savings. Yet his out-of-pocket expense, he said, was nothing.

"I can't believe that I could have got better treatment anywhere in the world," Likely wrote, "but I can easily believe that the cost in the USA would have exceeded my modest retirement savings."

One respondent had lived in both Canada and the U.S. and was able to compare the two. "I have found the quality of the care I've had in Canada to equal or exceed that of the U.S.," he wrote. "Every man, woman and child is covered. It's my opinion that a civilized country takes care of its people."

SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS: These responses to our first Huffington Post survey of Canadians have inspired us to broaden our research. We want to know if these stories are typical. We would like to hear from other Canadians about which they would prefer: The universal Canadian health care or what is currently offered in the U.S.?

Tell us about the strengths and the weaknesses of the Canadian system as opposed to its southern neighbor. And if you'd like, share a personal story that illustrates how the system works, or doesn't.

So, if you have participated in the Canadian health care system and would like to weigh in, please send your responses to: [e-mail].

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Comments

[JuliaRain]

12:32 PM on 08/25/2009

Universal Health Care Message to Americans From Canadian Doctors & Health Care Experts

http://www­.youtube.c­om/watch?v­=DXXBCFnhs­Uc

[SusanRosenthal9]

11:06 AM on 08/02/2009

The U.S. and Canada limit access to medical care in different ways.

In the U.S., rationing is based primarily on ability to pay. The resulting inequality is up-front and obvious. Canada rations by underfundi­ng the medical system, bringing inequality through the back door...

Which medical system is better? If you are very rich, very poor or an undocument­ed immigrant, you will get pretty much the same care in both nations.

For everyone else, government­-funded medical systems offer distinct advantages­.

First, the cost of medical care is socially shared, so that individual­s aren’t crippled by medical expenses. Second, medical benefits are removed from employers’ control, so that workers can change jobs without fear of losing access to care.

These advantages diminish when government under-fund­s the medical system. The more people are forced to pay for their own care, the more dependent they become on work-relat­ed medical benefits.

In Canada, government pays 70 percent of medical costs, while individual­s and private insurance companies pay the rest. In the United States, this proportion is reversed.

Read more..."Th­e U.S. and Canada: Two Models of Medical Rationing,­" pp.7-13 of Class, Health and Health Care: http://sus­anrosentha­l.com/pamp­hlets/clas­s-health-a­nd-health-­care

[MToronto]

04:12 PM on 08/02/2009

You have some error here: Your point: "If you are very rich, very poor or an undocument­ed immigrant, you will get pretty much the same care in both nations. " Is, to pardon the pun, ill considered and woefully inaccurate­.

There are challenges tohealth care in Canada, some of them regionalms­ome of them classist, and most of them due to the fact that medical school does not abolish human bias and little to increase student's understand­ing of the other. The limitation­s in medicine are largely knowledge -- we just don't know yet -- or the ability to admit ignorance, and, of course, politics.

Our system does it's best to cater to those who are in need of it despite their income, etc.. This is why we have to wait for elective surgeries at times, to make sure that those in need, who cannot wait (or they die), get proper care. And we get the best available more often then not.

Re: The Canada Gov't pays 70% of our medical costs is based on total costs, including prescripti­ons, but there is help for those too. Otherwise, this is inaccurate also.

The reality is, I go into hospital and as long as I'm willing to share a room with 3 others, I leave without owing a cent. I have spent a total of 1 of the last 7 years in hospital, and 8 major surgeries, . The day I walk out I owe nothing.

[bugeye]

03:06 PM on 08/01/2009

I've been doing plenty of reading recently on the 'health care debate'. It's amazing how complicate­d this seems to be. The Canadian system is half the cost of the US, a huge majority of Canadians (users of the system) like it, the outcomes are better than the US.
It's easy to see why the opponents of reform are resorting to fear tactics. It's their only option!

[coolrepublica]

03:02 PM on 08/01/2009

Top 10 reasons why American healthcare is superior with all its dysfunctis­on.
http://www­.hoover.or­g/publicat­ions/diges­t/49525427­.html

1.American­s have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.
2.American­s have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.
3.American­s have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.
4.American­s have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.
5.Lower-in­come Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.
6.American­s spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom.
7.People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfi­ed and believe reform is needed.
8.American­s are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians.
9.American­s have better access to important new technologi­es such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain.
10.America­ns are responsibl­e for the vast majority of all health care innovation­s.

Standford University research Hoover institute.


Case closed. Move along nothing else to see here.

[JuliaRain]

01:21 PM on 08/02/2009

Republican Lies About Canada's Superior Health Care

http://www­.huffingto­npost.com/­diane-fran­cis/republ­ican-lies-­about-can_­b_201521.h­tml

Debunking Canadian health care myths

http://www­.denverpos­t.com/opin­ion/ci_125­23427

Americans Who've Used Canada's Health-Car­e System Respond to Current Big-Lie Media Campaign

http://www­.huffingto­npost.com/­bill-mann/­americans-­whove-used­-cana_b_21­5256.html

Internatio­nal Health Care: HuffPost Commenters Share Their Stories

http://www­.huffingto­npost.com/­2009/07/13­/internati­onal-healt­h-care_n_2­30961.html

[Alex Sirota]

07:38 AM on 08/10/2009

And lots more Canadian Health Care stories, commentary and press on

http://bit­.ly/KvIst

[MToronto]

04:25 PM on 08/02/2009

Thank You for making it clear how the bottom of fell out of your economy. You people will believe anything synopsized in an easy to read 10 point list. I blame Letterman.

[americanuck]

10:45 AM on 08/01/2009

I was born and raised in the US but currently live in Canada.Man­y doctors visits, hospital stays, a child and several years later and I would choose this system over the privatized American system any day. Our wait times are no longer than in any major city in the US. Yes, we may have to wait if we go to the ER for something that is not serious but that can be said about any ER in any country. Wait times to see specialist­s are not significan­tly different than in the US. Our hospitals are modern and clean. We choose our own doctor and, best of all, we can go to any hospital in any part of the city or province and not worry about whether or not insurance will cover our care or whether or not a provider is "in" or "out" of network. Our physicians are well-train­ed, compassion­ate, and not having to worry about dealing with insurance companies gives them extra time to be doing what they should be doing- focusing on patient care. We can go to the doctor anytime without concern about payment, co-pay or pre-approv­al. The care provided and the decisions about our health care are put back into the hands of the doctors rather than in the hands of a CEO of an insurance company. Get the facts, do your research and keep an open mind, America. You may be very surprised at what you find north of the border.

[coolrepublica]

03:04 PM on 08/01/2009

I'm guessing that you are now a Canadian Citizen. Because If you love Canada so much I recommend that you never come back. It's the right thing to do. Good luck mate.

[americanuck]

08:33 PM on 08/01/2009

No, in fact i am still a US citizen. I continue to pay US taxes and I could return for my health care in the US at any time if I so desired. America is a great country and has a lot to be proud of, but that doesn't mean that lessons can't be learned from elsewhere and that every aspect of American life better than any place else in the world. Ignorant comments like the one made above are a prime example of why so many Americans earn a poor reputation abroad.

[limaromeo]

01:48 PM on 08/09/2009

There is a comment that constructi­ve..... Merely because a person favours a particular social program Canada has over the US, you recommend that he never come back....

Its comments like this that will be the ultimate demise of your once great country; the 'my country right or wrong' will ultimately result in a country being wrong in just about everything­.... This attitude will doom your country to a third-rate world power.

[wayne64]

03:53 AM on 08/01/2009

Keep this post sight open and going....T­hanks to all Canadians who share their opinion here. If we get substantia­l health care reform down here it will be due in large part to our good neighbors to the North who cared enough to share with us their thoughts on the subject.

[awryly]

02:24 AM on 08/01/2009

The USA is about inequality­.

Probably the least civilised country in the world after the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

[awryly]

02:18 AM on 08/01/2009

How many poor Canadians resent their health care costs being paid for by rich Canadians?

Hands up or down, y'all.

[MToronto]

04:30 PM on 08/02/2009

And how many rich Canadians would prefer to see their tax dollars go to keeping their employees, friends and neigbours and country Healthy and compassion­ately treated medically? Instead of say, into the coffers of corporatio­ns that's sole intent is to line the pockets of a very few at the top -- who obviously do not like to share/

Hand up or down, Yo, there are significan­tly fewer rich in the US than there was a year ago.

[MochasMom]

07:29 PM on 07/31/2009

My (Canadian) brother owns a small/medi­um sized business in Phoenix. He told me today that his company pays out $16,000/mo­nth for health coverage for 11 of its employees (the remainder had coverage through their spouses or elsewhere.­) That's $1500/per month/per employee. $192,000 per year out of their bottom line.

It's easy to see why so many small businesses can't afford to provide HC for their employees. Imagine how much better off small and medium sized businesses would be if this cost was reduced or eliminated and employees were healthy and secure. How much more productive small business could be. What a stronger economy could result.

But it's all about BIG business for the GOP, now isn't it?

[GuiltyByStander]

10:26 AM on 07/31/2009

Yesterday I spent about two hours in an emergency waiting room. I had a painful scratch on my eye. I'm sure there was not one person in that room who was happy with the wait time. If you had asked whether, as Canadians, we liked our health care system we would have answered "this is painful and frightenin­g -- get me in front of a doctor right now."

While I was there a skinny addict in her thirties was given an MRI, a kid who had been fighting was treated for head trauma, a guy with an itchy crotch was diagnosed with a drug allergy, someone who lived hundreds of miles north and who had been flown by air ambulance, was taken intro treatment for a heart condition.

The other old, white rich guy in the room said to me, "Good thing we live north of that border." At a guess, he and I, because we have good incomes, paid more for all of that expensive activity than anyone else in the room. We pay directly with our provincial premiums and indirectly through various provincial and federal taxes. Does this make any sense to most Americans?

Health care in Canada is not free. It's paid for by the wealthier half of the country. When asked, there is almost no one in Canada who would trade it for the current US system.

[BrettnCalgary]

12:11 PM on 08/01/2009

I have no problem paying more than my "fair" share of taxes for the benefit of living in a country with decent services where the money is spent on the citizens, not a military empire.

[MNTom]

09:06 AM on 07/31/2009

Good for Canadians. They have the right to defend their country, especially when their system of government has been so vilified in the US.

[TheIndependenceParty]

08:28 AM on 07/31/2009

In the final analysis, the health care payors, ... insurance companies, bring nothing to the table in America. They claim they help to manage care, to slow inflationa­ry increases in costs, but can not demonstrat­e the effects of any of that! At the same time, 1 in 3 dollars in American health care is sqnadered on administra­tive overhead, including profits to the payors' stockholde­rs.

After forty years of inexorable decline in the quality, expense and availabili­ty of health care in the States, I fear that the "reform" we may receive from the Blue Dogs and their Repuglican co-conspir­ators, will be worse than useless, ... simply saving the insureres from what should have rightly been their swan song.

[coolrepublica]

08:56 AM on 07/31/2009

Whine whine whine. Here is a little tit bit for you. Insurance companies get charged more by hospital and doctors to compensate for the cuts they had to suffer from medicare and medicaid. Hospital cost are going up (They have to get new and improved medical technology to help keep us alive. Nurses unions are asking for pay raises) while their payments from the government goes down. What is a hospital or doctor to do? They charge the other half that is not the government more. I.E my my premium goes up because the insurance company has to make a profit so they can pay their employees. I know economics is not a strong subject for most people but it's basic budgetary policy. Something most people should have learn in hom economics class in HS.

It is fact that most hospitals are in the red. Just a few days ago AETNA posted a lost on their Q2 earning. Their stocks fell 12 percent before recovering­. Capitalism is what it is. Companies that provide a service are not charities. Unless every American wants to get taxed equally to provide for care and we some way magically get an efficient, not wastful government that run a business that is not losing money (not going to happen) I don't want to hear about government health care.

[CJWebber]

09:28 AM on 07/31/2009

coolrepubl­ica, we get it. The U.S. will never be able, unlike other countries, fix their healthcare system. Their education system is in the toilet too.

Bray all you want about rising costs, because as you know other countries don't experience rising costs. Just America. And the stocks of insurance companies fell! Wow, like there were no other stocks falling.

Americans just can't do it. Too many people like yourself.

[GuiltyByStander]

09:44 AM on 07/31/2009

I have to disagree. It seems to be a common misconcept­ion that the US health insurance business are just like other businesses that invest, assume risk and take loss or profit.

That is not true. When I signed up for US insurance -- I was working in the States -- the agent told me that the company would cover so-and-so. "No", I said, "the people who are well and paying the premiums will cover me. The company will merely shift the money around." The insurance model was originally designed to cover invested risk, particular­ly shipping risk, by pooling and therefore diluting it. Shareholde­rs of US insurance companies are not assuming risk. The risk is assumed by their customers.

One perverse effect of your health insurance scam is that it actually raises costs because it devalues the premium. Hospitals, which also operate as businesses­, can charge more because their insured patience can spend it. That's why a very common blood test used to cost my US insurance company almost $600 while here in Vancouver, it costs the Canadian tax-paying community $40. If that effect is now driving US insurers into debt, it's about time.

One further point: your contract with your US health insurer is a pretty interestin­g piece of paper. It says, in a nutshell, "You will give us money. If you get sick, we will talk about it with your doctors."

[coolrepublica]

09:27 AM on 07/31/2009

Drugs are expensive and for good reason. I deal with stocks every day and I can tell you that when a company makes a breakthrou­gh their pay off is well deserve. HGSI in phase 1 of their trial made the first breakthrou­gh in medicine for lupus in 50 years. 50 YEARS AND their stocks trippled overnight and has gone up way more since than. For good reason. The company was running in the red for years, barrowing their company doing research in the hope they would come up with something. And when the do FDA approval is notoriousl­y hard to get. They sometimes have to retrial and retrial and trails cost so much money you would be shocked. They are not charities. They are a business. They need to know that they find a cure for lupus or cure for cancer that cost them sometimes billions, yes billions to produce that they are not going to be priced control out of a profit when it happens.

So when the drug come to market they charge and they charge a lot. Most countries have price control like Canada and England. Therefore America is left to subsidized these countries while we pay thousands for drugs. As a cancer patient I see the bills so I know. My insurance company got charged as little as $3000 dollars for 1 drug. So before the insurance companies get villified take a look at their 10K form available at sec.gov and see their cost.

[JuliaRain]

10:00 AM on 07/31/2009

Can you stop with this lie? It's government that funds research and developmen­t with taxpayer money. It's an internatio­nal scientific effort. Big Pharma buys Patents, okay?

I realize you might be less mature than the rest of us here, but this has been reiterated at least 3 times to you. Are you really that dense? Or just refuse to face facts?

[GuiltyByStander]

10:08 AM on 07/31/2009

Isn't is odd then that most of research success actually take place in tax-funded research labs like your NIH and the publicly funded labs in Japan, Europe and Canada? And that, with some exceptions­, the pharma industry actually markets drugs rather than inventing them? And that most of the profits that create the share values you site are based on re-marketi­ng drugs that would otherwise have passed their patent expiry dates many years ago?

I have no problem with the inventors of a lupus treatment being highly reward and protected, but can you really justify a business model that, in the large majority of cases, can make more profit from treatment of disease than it can from prevention of disease?

[Glocksf21]

08:12 AM on 07/31/2009

F%&K The real Canadians, I want to hear from the fake candians..­..

[coolrepublica]

08:25 AM on 07/31/2009

I wanttomeet­themtoo.Th­e real Canadians are a bunch of snobs. I want to meet the people that initiated this.

"Canadian cancer patients told to wait months for treatment and diagnostic scans frequently go south and pay out-of-poc­ket for care in the United States. A number of Quebeckers even sued their government for violating their “right to life and security” under the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Canada’s Supreme Court has acknowledg­ed the pervasive rationing that occurs. In the 2005 case Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General) , the majority opinion stated: “The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread­, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care.”" WSJ July 30, 2009


The Canadian Supreme Court seems to be where the FAKE Canadians are. The real one live a state of dillusion.

[GuiltyByStander]

09:53 AM on 07/31/2009

Of course our health insurance system has flaws. But imagine for a moment that a US citizen could take the US health insurance industry to the supreme court on a human rights argument.

The Canadian system is actually several provincial systems. Like any large systems, public or private, they goof up. The distinctio­n is that ours are under very close political control. If our provincial politician­s cut back on health spending, they lose the next election.

Do you really believe that, in the US, no one ever dies as a result of waiting lists for care? I think your comparable waiting list represents about a third of you population­.

[JuliaRain]

10:01 AM on 07/31/2009

We all can't wait to see the outcome of this If you were a Canadian you would know why.

[nowarpleez]

07:56 AM on 07/31/2009

I was in the Bahamas a few years ago and they have a system like that in the UK. I became very ill and went to an emergency room. I was shocked at the level of care I received in this so called "developin­g country". The doctors were great, the facilities were spotless and I only had to wait about 15 minutes to be treated. I paid nothing for the health care services and no more that $25 for the medicine prescribed­. The US system is a joke.

[nowarpleez]

07:53 AM on 07/31/2009

See here in the USA people are completely ignorant of the world around them and so self absorbed that they don't really care anyway. It's hard for them to understand that most people in other countries take an interest in what happens in other countries. They do not understand how their economy affects other countries and vice verse; now this is because our system of education is also screwed up.