US Jews protest Catholic document on salvation

NEW YORK — Major Jewish groups and rabbis from the three largest branches of American Judaism said Thursday that their relationship with Roman Catholic leaders is at risk because of a recent U.S. bishops' statement on salvation.

Jewish groups said they interpret the new document to mean that the bishops view interfaith dialogue as a chance to invite Jews to become Catholic. The Jewish leaders said they "pose no objection" to Christians sharing their faith, but said dialogue with Jews becomes "untenable" if the goal is to persuade Jews to accept Christ as their savior.

"A declaration of this sort is antithetical to the very essence of Jewish-Christian dialogue as we have understood it," Jewish leaders said in a letter to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The signers were the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and rabbis representing the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform movements.

The statement fueling the tension was issued by the bishops in June to clarify a 2002 document called "Covenant and Mission." The bishops said the earlier document mistakenly played down the importance of sharing the Gospel and was therefore misleading.

"While the Catholic Church does not proselytize the Jewish people, neither does she fail to witness to them her faith in Christ, nor to welcome them to share in that same faith whenever appropriate," said Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, Conn., chairman of a bishops' committee on doctrine. He had said the revisions affirmed statements from the Holy See.

The tensions are rooted in a complex theological debate about salvation for those outside the Catholic Church. Discussion of the issue between Jews and Catholics focuses on the significance of the ancient covenant between God and the Jews.

Pope John Paul II had spoken repeatedly of a covenant "never revoked." Many Jewish groups view the bishops' statement as stepping back from the pope's position.

Sister Mary Ann Walsh, a spokeswoman for the U.S. bishops, said Thursday: "Catholic-Jewish dialogue has been important to the U.S. bishops for almost 50 years. The bishops have just received the letter and currently are studying it."

____

On the Net:

U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops: http://www.usccb.org/

Anti-Defamation League: http://www.adl.org/

Comments

[andersbranderud]

If the Catholics wants to adapt the view of atonement that Ribi Yehoshua held the following paragraph is essential information.

How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His kipur –atonement- is outlined in Tan’’kh ; and was also taught by the first century Jew Ribi Yehoshua (the Mashiakh; the Messiah) from Nazareth. He taught in accordance with Tan’’kh the only way to get a relation to the Creator. This way is found both in Torah and in Ribi Yehoshuas teachings, found in our website – http://www.netzarim.co.il

Anders Branderud

[irkulyen]

Alas, converting the "perfidious Jews" to Christianity is an ancient article of faith in the annals of Mother Church. When will she mind her own business and let us all worship in peace without her perfidious meddling?

[deanable]

this is religion babble. none of it means anything

[maus]

Very imaginative Deanable; very subtle, engaged and thought-provoking... The idea of "god" means nothing, but the idea of particle being in two places at once, or of space expanding faster than light does?? Why do these things need to be mutually exclusive? Does a poem mean anything? Jesus, you people totally lack any imagination!

[Arrecho]

Religion is poison

[mulegino]

Yeah, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, as Emerson said. All you hear from the militant atheists is basically: "religion is bad, stupid, etc." as if their own petty philosophy of materialist reductionism were somehow an improvement, or their childish caricatures of theistic belief such as "Flying Spaghetti Monster" were a valid argument instead of a childish barb.
Their imagination does not even extend to real history, much less human creativity, since if one chooses to be so tendentious as to point out the evils of religion-usually in the guise of Catholicism or Christianity in general, and neglects to point out its great achievements-as if there were no history from the fall of Pagan Rome to the "Great" revolution of 1789-then all they are left with is a pitiful straw man, easily picked apart straw by straw.

[Roses]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."........Hamlet

You both aren't really argueing.

[mulegino]

I don't, for instance, believe in Islam, but I am not offended when the Muslim preaches that his faith is the one true faith and necessary for salvation. I don't expect him to change his beliefs to accomodate my religious sensibilities, whatever they may be. If I believe truly in the faith I adhere to, his insistence on being right, although I believe he is in error, represents to me something admirable, a perserverance of faith in a faithless and spiritually voided world. I should work to convince him that what I believe is the truth, not by the dilution of his faith, but by the manifest truth of my own.
I trust that once the Catholic bishops (a sorry and pathetic lot, generally speaking) forsake their own faith to placate the likes of the ADL, etc., that these Jewish organizations will repudiate their own faith based notion of "Jewish uniqueness" and "Choseness".

[OlongapoEd]

But it *is*, Blanche, it *is* impossible to have a "dialogue" with anyone who believes that his or her religion is the "true religion". Face it, all religious supremacism is necessarily and intrinsically closed to dialogue. Phony expressions of "concern", "respect", whatever, from such people cannot be sincere. Those who believe that their religion is the "true religion" cannot possibly have any sort of actual respect for other religions, no matter how much nice-sounding rhetoric they may spout for public relations purposes.

[maus]

How does the same not hold for positive science? Isn't positivism a kind of absolutism, the "one true way" of re-presenting the world?

[lauram]

Nope. Not at all. If you can give me one shred of peer-reviewed, re-creatable proof of anything that looks, smells, tastes, sounds or feels like all that you believe, I will drop my disbelief in a moment. That's the difference between science and religion. Those led by science are ALWAYS willing to rethink their beliefs when the evidence changes. I'd be happy to see evidence to prove whatever you think god is. But the religionist is never happy to even CONTEMPLATE proof that god isn't. They feel that they cannot live w/o their beliefs. I can live just fine w/o my current beliefs. Just so long as I see peer-reviewed re-creatable proof of something to the contrary.

[Roses]

Sounds real good......except you're wrong......at least in my case.

All I can do is to speak about me.
I am a practicing, church-going, mass-attending Catholic. Why? Because it is right for me. I get alot out of it. Like I said, for ME. If it is not for you, it is not for you. If you choose to be a seeker (like my daughter) or if you choose to be a Unitarian (like my other daughter) or if you choose to go to Mass but not be confirmed (like my husband) or if you choose to be a Catholic (like my sister) or if you choose to be a deist (like my other sister) or if you choose atheism (like my mother).......FINE.

I do not have a hidden agenda. I respect peoples' wishes. I do not think less of them.

To paraphrase Joan Osbourne:
'We're all just strangers on the bus.....trying to make our way home.'

[bluerthanblue15]

Roses,

Would that those who participate in organized religion had the same convictions you discuss, there would be none of the problems associated with the one uppers too numerous to mention. Thanks for your valueable insight!

[mommamia526]

Roses, you are so right! Actually, that is exactly what jews are doing, buddhists are doing, and possibly some others are doing. The problem comes when you are right, even if you really are, and then try to twist others' arms, who are also right, and really think they are, It is called active conversion attempts. Making an official and public declaration that salvation only comes from your own religion puts everyone else in the *wrong*. That is the issue. The same applies, of course, to being *the chosen*, etc. I belong to that group and remember my father going outside and throwing his arms up in the air, asking: "could you please chose someone else? O,k, for a few weeks, maybe?". This is the way I look at it: there are some rules and regulations and they apply to the three major religions. Similar rules and regulations apply elsewhere, and a few more, applying common sense, such as in buddhism. If we all live according to the rules, we would be doing much better.

[maus]

I'm very surprised at how unthinking and intolerant most of this discussion is! I mean, isn't it already implicit to the Christian faith that it is "the one true faith" to which "all human beings should adhere?" And so, what is the scandal? To me the scandal is all of you folks who would just dismiss out of hand the billions who hold this faith as "sociopaths" and "idiots." Can't we try and engage people who believe differently than us in a more subtle and thought-provoking way than that? Can't we try and have a dialogue about the different ways we each imagine the essence and destiny of humankind (or lack thereof) without name calling and mockery? And before you respond that such a dialogue is impossible because ALL religious folks are intolerant, try reading some of their stuff, the Catholics in particular, their post-Vatican II literature is nothing if not delicate, open, respectful of difference, and mindful of what unites "all people of good will," even and despite their possible differences.

[Kevin30215]

No, we can't have civil discourse where religion is concerned.

Religion is the result of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of anything.

The adherent to a religion MUST believe he holds the one and only true faith, and that anyone else is a sinner or a fool, who must be converted or slain. Anything else is weak relativism.

You cannot "respect the differences" you have with a man who, in your opinion, is throwing his life away worshiping the Easter Bunny while you have accepted the Tooth Fairy as your personal saviour.

We will never grow up as a species unless we abandon the gods and learn to face the unknown. Watching Jews and Catholics play their games over words is like watching a bunch of seventh graders argue over "World of Warcraft."

[maus]

It is funny to me that the very same arguments you make against religion are the arguments that, e.g., the Frankfurt School (in a way, following Nietzsche) made against science, that is, that it is really positive science that fears the unknown, it is positive science that reduces everything to a "mere objectivity," where nothing at all can remain outside. According to the Frankfurters, science behaves towards things as a dictator toward men--knowing them in so far as he can manipulate them. Anyways, anyone who'd draw a parallel between the "tooth fairy" and the concept of God obviously doesn't have a very creative or rich imagining of God. Moreover, I find your suggestion that we "grow up" as a species profoundly troubling. What magical yard stick measures this? Are western scientists more "grown up" than, e.g., the North American plains Indians of the 13th century? Is an evolutionary biologist more "grown up" than a native Hawaiian who has a word in his language for a spirit next to a tree? Understand that it was PRECISELY this logic of "growing up" that the Europeans used to legitimatize their barbaric colonial projects... Understand that nothing of "pre-Enlightenment" humankind corresponds with respect to atrocity and barbarism to Auschwitz or to Hiroshima...

[Roses]

Au contraire, my dear Kevin----

I am a practicing Catholic, who believes I have found faith.......for ME. It may not be for you, you, and you. It is for me. I certainly DON'T feel that "The adherent to a religion MUST believe he holds the one and only true faith, and that anyone else is a sinner or a fool, who must be converted or slain. Anything else is weak relativism."

I try and speak for the many, many people who do not feel that faith is 'Fear'. But actually the opposite. In our lives we strive to show that faith is love. Faith is mystery.
I don't ask you to understand.....just not to judge.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."........Hamlet

[yellowdoggie]

This is my take on it, and from what others have posted here, my ideas and beliefs are just as good as anyone elses. Anyway, I'm not religious. I don't particularly think any one group has any more relevance or authenticity or path to enlightenment than any other. I try to practice Buddhism myself, but often fall short on the "compassion" principle. That being said, the Jews have very good reason to get upset when they perceive the Catholics are saying they need conversion. Anti-Jewish religious sentiment often translates into very bad things happening to the Jewish people. A little tolerance for everyone's beliefs, please, people.

[takeabigdeepbreath]

It's not just the Catholics who believe that their way is the only way. The "born agains" think that Jesus won't return until all the region that once was known as "ISRAEL" in the Bible belongs Israel (this includes Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc., etc., etc.) thus they vigorously support Zionism. After this comes to pass, which they acknowledge will "unfortunately" include the death of innocents (who are not God's children anyway because they don't believe in the same God as they do), then the Jews will either convert to Christianity or be damned to hell. When did we all fall down this rabbit hole we're in????

[fratricide08]

I think the issue has more to do with nervousness regarding this particular Pope as well as fears within the Jewish community, particularly by more conservative rabbis, that they are slowly dying out due to secularism and intermarriage than it does with anything else. Otherwise, it just sounds like an over the top reaction that's totally out of proportion to the text.

[nootrope]

I love how the christians steal the Jewish religion from the Jews, mix it up with a bunch of pagan myths and rituals, and then try to dictate to the Jews the terms of their own religion!

Get over yourselves, christians. You're holding everyone back.

[ZenCrusader]

no one is holding anyone back - people perceive and live their lives as they choose - what are you talking about ? ? ?

[nootrope]

I'm talking about belief in superstition holding back the human race, like when they want to teach creationism in the schools and gay people can't get married b/c of these people clinging to a 2000 y.o. myth just to give their lives (and heir fear of death) some meaning. That's what I'm talking about.

[pfc1369]

Two thousand years of this nonsense will do nicely.

Enough already!

[ZenCrusader]

it is everyone's personal decision - you have made yours - you should allow others the same same right

[pfc1369]

Problem is, they impose their c**p, or attempt to, into every nook and cranny of society.

[kendraro]

Somewhere way back in the development of both Judaism and Christianity this idea of a jealous god came up. And then the idea of convert everyone - because if they don't believe this one faith they are going to burn.... Indigenous religions don't have this lovely feature. They (pretty much world-wide) say I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, no problem. If we had stuck with this model, can you imagine the wars and the personal conflicts that we would have avoided?
IMHO, spiritual beliefs are personal, and don't need to infringe on others.

[pfc1369]

The "jealous god" idea comes strictly from the Old Testament.

[maus]

So you would have us abandon the idea of universality? You would give everything over to a relativism? Why is it that spiritual beliefs can't be understood by one as holding for others without necessarily infringing on them? IMHO the concept of a "jealous God" is immensely productive, that is, if we understand "God" as most radical theologians today then the concept of "His" jealously means nothing else than that we should have no other absolute than that there is no absolute, that we should have no idol for what cannot be re-presented.

[raw6464]

If god was so powerful why doesn't he just whack the schyt out of satan and then we'd have no need to be "saved" and all these religious screwballs would be irrelevant? Ya think $$$$$$$$$$ is the reason.

Every Sunday instead of going to church I go to the car wash where they have a wooden indian. I started praying to the indian and got the same results as when I prayed to god. So instead of putting 10 bucks in a church basket I use the money to get my car washed while I'm praying to the wooden indian... works for me!

[bootooyoo]

Wooden indian god - how ridiculous. I will pray every day to my ceramic toad god that you may see the light.

[ZenCrusader]

how sad for you

[barrycourage]

Sociopathic Abrahamic sky-god cults.

[maus]

That's right Barry, because Catholic's believe God is "up in the sky," right?, in the clouds maybe, or maybe on a satellite... Because the concept of "God" can't be productive in any way and offers nothing for the imagination, nothing to enrich human existence... Because anyone who believes that there is a place for "God" (whatever that might mean) is sociopath... Because the Hebrew Bible can't teach us anything at all about what it means to be in the world... Because everything we need to know is finally quantifiable or empirically positive and rational... Man, what a small world you must live in...

[barrycourage]

When the cults kill each other under the guise of the primacy of their beliefs, yes, they are sociopaths.

All of them. Any of them.

[dadw5boys]

So funny.

Cathloics trying to take over the Jewish Religion.
Cathloic Religion came from the Jewish Religion to begin with.
All Religions came from the Jewish Religion, they are all just splinter groups.

[yellowdoggie]

You honestly believe that all religion came from the "Jewish Religion"? Do some more researc, dad.

[pfc1369]

"All Religions"?

Except Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Confuscism, Shamanism, Lamaism...In other words, the religions embraced by most people on the planet.