Wind Farms Can Appear Sinister To The Weatherman

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DIRK LAMMERS | 08/26/09 05:58 PM | AP

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FILE - In this May 19, 2006 file photo, a group of 260-feet tall wind towers are silhoutted against a bright orange sky at the Elk River Wind farm near Beaumont, Kan. The spinning blades atop 200-foot towers might appear to the naked eye as ... well ... spinning blades. But to Doppler radar, wind farms appear as a splatter of green, yellow, orange and red _ much like a violent storm or even a tornado. (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel, file)

SIOUX FALLS, S.D. — Wind farms have been blamed for disrupting the lives of birds, bats and, most recently, the land-bound sage grouse.

Now the weather forecaster?

The massive spinning blades affixed to towers 200 feet high can appear on Doppler radar like a violent storm or even a tornado.

The phenomenon has affected several National Weather Service radar sites in different parts the country, even leading to a false tornado alert near Dodge City, Kansas, in the heart of Tornado Alley. In Des Moines, Iowa, the weather service received a frantic warning from an emergency worker who had access to Doppler radar images.

The alert was quickly called off in Kansas and meteorologists calmed the emergency worker down, but with enough wind turbines going up last year to power more than 6 million homes and a major push toward alternative energy, more false alerts seem inevitable.

New installations are concentrated, understandably in windy states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado and Iowa, all part of Tornado Alley.

Texas, which has more tornadoes than any other state, also has the most wind power capacity.

Dave Zaff, science and operations officer with the National Weather Service office in Buffalo, N.Y., describes the wind farms 20 to 35 miles to the southeast as "more of a pimple or a blotch on your face" that 99 percent of the time will not pose a problem.

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But what about those busy, high-stress periods when a meteorologist is tasked with making quick decisions as storms grow violent? In a worse-case scenario, a forecaster could disregard a real storm for turbine interference, but, more likely, would err on the side of caution, Zaff said.

"If you take a glance and then all of the sudden you see red, you might issue an incorrect warning as a result," he said.

Problems began to surface about three years ago, and seem to occur where a wind farm is built within about 11 miles of a Doppler site, said Tim Crum, with the weather service's radar operations center in Norman, Okla.

That could become a bigger problem because the same terrain is attractive for both weather radar and wind farms.

"They want to be out in relatively exposed areas, high terrain, those sorts of things," Crum said. "So we sometimes are looking for the same ground, although we're already there."

Software can easily filter out buildings, cell towers and mountain ridges on radar screens. Yet because weather radar seeks motion to warn of storms, there's no way to filter out the spinning blades.

Microwave radio signals are beamed toward a particular point and meteorologists listen for the "reflection." Experts can pick out the shape of a storm, or a tornado.

The splatter of green, yellow, orange and red on Doppler screens that are caused by wind farms can look very much like a tornado or a storm.

In Kansas, it was a computer program that picked up on the pattern and issued the alert. A meteorologist who was aware of the phenomenon quickly called off the alert.

The weather service is trying to improve its technology so that meteorologists during severe weather events can more easily tell the difference between dangerous storms and wind farms.

But there are now discussions about shutting down the wind farms when bad storms roll in.

The weather service has no say in where wind farms are sited, though it has analyzed some 500 proposed wind projects in an attempt to cut down on false alarms through better siting and layouts, said Crum.

It is also meeting regularly with AWEA, the wind power trade group.

Laurie Jodziewicz, AWEA's manager of siting policy, said the association is making sure its members understand the emerging issue and that they consider their projects' potential effects sooner rather than later.

"You can move turbines around as you're planning, but once they're in the ground they're really, really difficult to move," Jodziewicz said.

SIOUX FALLS, S.D. — Wind farms have been blamed for disrupting the lives of birds, bats and, most recently, the land-bound sage grouse. Now the weather forecaster?...
SIOUX FALLS, S.D. — Wind farms have been blamed for disrupting the lives of birds, bats and, most recently, the land-bound sage grouse. Now the weather forecaster?...
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If anyone wants to see what they are talking about go to weatherunderground wundergroud.comm) or some other site where you can access the regional NEXRAD doppler radars. Search on Dodge City, Kansas and click on the local radar link. On this radar you are likely to see a yellow dot a few miles southwest of the site.

If you put the map in motion you see that the dot does not move but does change slightly. The dot is the Gray Country Wind Farm.
http://www.kansastravel.org/graycountywindfarm.htm

By itself this radar signature is not a big deal. False alarms should be easy to screen out when the weather is clear. The problem is that false negatives could be devastating. If there were a severe thunderstorm moving over the site, it is possible that the radar signature could obscure the formation of a real tornado that could hit close by Montezuma with no warning. Filtering out the noise is not a simple task. The spinning blades mimic tornado formation closely enough that to filter it out could filter out real data.

This is not to say that we should stop building wind farms. We don't stop building airplanes because they crash on rare occasions. All this story is about is how it is important to address one of the drawbacks and find a solution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:40 PM on 08/28/2009
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This article looks like it was planted by the petroleum and/or nuclear power industries, which can no longer compete with wind farms on cost.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:34 PM on 08/28/2009
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As for the increase of wild weather in the USA by an increase in violent storms in the past few years.
I would look at what the government is really upto with HAARP. Not to mention the chemtrails etc.
The US government has the capacity to do all manner of havoc with the weather wherever it wants to and does.
So before attacking people trying to do some good. Please look into wat is really happening.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:40 AM on 08/28/2009
- mamacat I'm a Fan of mamacat 153 fans permalink

Tornadoes occur only with thunderclouds. Wind towers are stationary, and so are doppler radar stations. Is it unreasonable to expect operators of radar stations to know where, if any, nearby wind-turbine towers are located, and to notice whether or not there is a thundercloud in the vicinity? Besides, it is not as if the radar and the wind towers are located right next to each other. Any wind tower over a few miles away will be barely detectable by radar, and besides, most of the wind turbines will shut down in high winds to avoid damage.

This whole flap reminds me of the story supposedly coming out of Britain a few years ago, where it was posited that wind turbines were a threat to military radars near airports. It turned out that the Brits themselves said that whole story was bogus. They Brits did a study to check up on the accusations, and the only way a wind turbine could interfere with military radar was if the turbine was within a couple of miles of an airfield, and only if it was inline with the airfield's runways.

Concerns about safety are always serious, but unfortuneately, in this political climate, we have to distinguish between legitimate concerns and hogwash.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 AM on 08/28/2009
- BushBites I'm a Fan of BushBites 33 fans permalink

That's because weathermen are idiots.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:01 PM on 08/27/2009
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For an investment of about $300 Billion over 20 years, wind turbines could be built in the United States to provide electricity for every household. This would create 1.5 million jobs. Winds farms are already cost competitive with coal, natural gas, and petroleum for electric generation. As an example, Bluewater Wind recently won competitive bids (beating out coal and natural gas plants) to construct wind farms off the coasts of Delaware and New Jersey.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:41 PM on 08/27/2009
- mamacat I'm a Fan of mamacat 153 fans permalink

Are you suggesting that there is a better way to use our debt? Currently we are spending about $650 billion/year (the Defence Budget), $150 billion/year (the war budgets), and $100 billion/year (the top-secret add-on to the Defence Budget that is never explained), on things that we probably don't need to be doing, like conducting land wars in the Middle East, and preparing to hold off the no-longer-existent Soviet Union.

I think we need a mix of energy sources. Wind has been estimated to be practical for at least 20% of our total needs, and maybe twice that much. Solar and geothermal can be used much more extensively than how they have so far been used. Theoretically tidal and ocean current forces could supply much of our energy needs, but most applied research in this area has been done outside of this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 08/28/2009
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Label the weather maps to show where the wind farms are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:40 PM on 08/27/2009
- VOTER I'm a Fan of VOTER 188 fans permalink
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An animated progression of Wind Powered Turbines in the USA from 1999 - 2009.

How is your state doing?

http://windpoweringamerica.gov/wind_installed_capacity.asp

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:21 PM on 08/27/2009
- VOTER I'm a Fan of VOTER 188 fans permalink
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Denmark has been leading the way with Wind Turbine usage on land and along
the coastline but also at a remarkable place, Samso Island, Denmark.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2008/sep/21/samso.windfarms?picture=337762443

http://outside.away.com/outside/destinations/200702/samso-denmark-1.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:14 PM on 08/27/2009
- Tom Joad I'm a Fan of Tom Joad 314 fans permalink
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no image to go with the premise of this story? Here's a hint: thunderstorms move, a group of wind turbines don't. I want to see the radar imagery that was mistaked for a tornado.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 08/27/2009

Here is one example of what can happen. Strong thunderstorms are often accompanied by straight winds. Doppler radar can tell the speed of that wind and whether it is blowing toward the radar or away.

Obviously, the blades of a wind trubine are designed to catch that wind. This creates unpredictable eddies in those winds. If conditions are right, those eddies can continue to move through the farm with the rest of the winds. To find tornadoes, computers and meteorologists look for winds in a small area going two different directions, just like it is doing in those eddies.

Sorry I don't have video, but try this. Take a boat oar and run it through the water at an angle. You will see tiny whirlpools form around the edges. It is the same effect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 08/27/2009
- mamacat I'm a Fan of mamacat 153 fans permalink

It may be hard to believe, but among my many varied jobs, I actually operated weather radar, a long time ago, and studied tornadoes, too. Any buildings not very close to the radar were of no consequence, and I see no reason why wind turbines over a mile or so away would be of any concern, whatsoever. It's not as if wind turbines are going to extend up to the base of thunderstorm clouds. Thunderstorms extend many miles up into the atmosphere, and a wind turbine, with 300 foot blades, might have a tip of a blade extending up 450 feet from the ground. They are not comparable. Keep the radar unit and the wind turbines far enough apart, probably no closer than a mile or two, and there should be no problem. It is worth a quick study, with a mobile doppler radar unit, and that should solve this question once and for all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 AM on 08/28/2009

You don't state whether you worked with doppler systems. The NEXRAD network has only been around about 20 years. This system has saved so many lives because it allows meteorologists to see actual formation on radar. When I grew up in the 70's a tornado warning was based on visual confirmation. Now it can be based solely on radar signatures.

It is true that thunderstorms extend up, sometimes as much as 60,000 feet, into the atmosphere. However, the winds that spawn tornados are low in the storm. A wall cloud can have a base that is 1000 feet above ground level or less. Funnel formation, of course, can extend to the ground.

A wind farm can be visible 10 or even 20 miles from the site. It is a relatively straightforward matter to screen out false alarms. Any competent meteorologist would be able to tell the difference in normal conditions. The problem is when you have a storm passing over a wind farm. You don't want someone dismissing real tornado formation as turbine activity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 PM on 08/28/2009

It's time for nuclear power.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:53 PM on 08/27/2009

We can't tell a wind farm from a tornado, but we've got global climate change all figured out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 08/27/2009
- cmvortex I'm a Fan of cmvortex 7 fans permalink

Gimme a break. That weak analogy is like saying we haven't harnessed nuclear fusion for electricity, so therefore 20th century physics should be ignored.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:41 PM on 08/27/2009

save it for your friends, Al

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 PM on 08/27/2009

part of the program is the turbulence the turbines create.

The blades on the rotor can pitch (turn) to change shape, efficiently catching wind. When there is little wind, blades will pitch flat against wind, when it's windy they'll turn so they have a small little profile preventing over rotation. Turbines have an optimal RPM to generate power, if you look at new turbines they turn the same RPM from 15mph to 45mph. Optimal RPMs means that the blade tips are traveling 160-200+mph depending on the rotor radius. This creates 'eddies' and vortexes that Doppler sees.

Turbines also yaw, ie. face the wind, meaning in addition to a radius of 260ft on top of a 260ft tower, you also have a 260ft radius around the vertical axis of the tower. Add in several turbines on a ridge and weird thing happens to doppler. Worse, on a ridge, winds are always different, turbine don't always face the same way, so within 1 mile you may have turbine that are covering 270 degrees, making starnge signatures.

Depending on type, most turbines shut down (pitch blades to stop) at winds in excess of 50mph. This to save gear boxes, as high winds usually have erratic speeds and directions causing damage to 'the transmission' over time. So when there is a crazy wind storm turbines often barely more at all, just yaw to keep from spinning....

Wind is great, but it too has it problems, but sure beats cooking dinosaurs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 08/27/2009

Your description is excellent, 100% true, insightful, informative, and extremely relevant.

I think it probably went right over the heads of those who are saying, "No big deal, just filter it out". But I loved it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 PM on 08/27/2009
- joelaf I'm a Fan of joelaf 5 fans permalink
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Seems to me that a link to just one of the turbine's rotational speed would help in determing what was going on. If it's moving at a slower pace than the radar would indicate, then it's just an anomoly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 PM on 08/27/2009
- DeSwiss I'm a Fan of DeSwiss 35 fans permalink
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"The weather service has no say in where wind farms are sited..."

Oh no? So there's no public comment period BEFORE these wind farms are built? Someone's been sitting on their lazy asses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 AM on 08/27/2009
- Pragman I'm a Fan of Pragman 5 fans permalink
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I think "no say" means "no authority" not "no comment:".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:28 PM on 08/27/2009
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