WaPo Reports On Environmental "Debate," Fails To Note That One Side Of Debate Is Bunk

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First Posted: 09-25-09 05:22 PM   |   Updated: 09-26-09 03:45 PM

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Carbon Dioxide Nonsense

An article in today's Washington Post reports "New Groups Revive the Debate Over Causes of Climate Change." We are told that a "fractious debate" is brewing! We are further informed that "assumptions are being challenged!" All of that is true. What the article fails to report is that on one side of this debate are lying energy industry shills, which means that these "assumptions" are being "challenged" by people operating in bad faith.

All of this comes under the heading of the Washington Post's "Green: News About The Environment" banner, which would lead one to believe that it's a source that would strive to actually inform readers, instead of badly misinform them. In this case, they carry a brief for an outfit called "CO2 Is Green," whose P.R. strategy is based in playing people for fools by means of the promotion of reductive reasoning and oversimplification. Their central premise is basically: "But human beings breathe out carbon dioxide, so it must be good to produce even more of it!" Normally when one hears this sort of statement being made, one pauses to make sure it's not being made by a seven-year-old child. If it is, it can be forgiven, because one day, God willing, said child will grow up to obtain what is colloquially known as a "high school education."

When this idea is promulgated by adults, however, it requires an adult to dispense some reality-based facts. Since the Washington Post is more concerned with the whole "who's up and who's down" politics of the matter, and cannot be bothered with actual information, I shall take up the cause.

CO2 is Green, right on their webpage, happily inform visitors that "Humans inhale and exhale CO2 with every breath. How could anyone expect you to believe it is a human health hazard?" Well, in the first place, this sort of ignores the fact that human beings exhale CO2 for a reason. If you want to appreciate how CO2 becomes a health hazard, you really ought to try inhaling pure CO2 for a period of time. See, there's this whole thing called the Krebs Cycle by which oxygen is converted into adenosine triphosphate, which helps to form the building blocks of proteins and amino acids and allow for the replication of human DNA, all of which allows the human being to...how should I put this? "Live." Breathing in pure CO2 would not allow any of this to occur, which would eventually lead to the state of "not living."

But more to the point. Yes, human beings produce carbon dioxide and then plants, through photosynthesis, metabolize this exhaust and convert it back into oxygen. All of this is part of a naturally occurring cycle that functions well when it's in equilibrium. But what the good folks at CO2 Is Green -- fronted by "a veteran oil industry executive" and supported by the "chief executive of and leading shareholder in Natural Resource Partners, a Houston-based owner of coal resources that lets other companies mine in return for royalties" -- want you to believe is that when the fossil fuels they shill for are burned, it's just as easy and natural as respiration. It's like breathing, only lots lots more of it!

But the carbon captured in fossil fuels is not a part of the naturally occurring process of respiration. That carbon is the result of centuries of organic decay. Left on its own, it would take millions of years for fossil fuels to "exhale" their carbon dioxide. When fossil fuels are burned, however, it's released into the atmosphere on a much shorter timeframe of a few centuries, thus increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the environment. That throws off the equilibrium established between respiration and photosynthesis. This is where the whole concept of "carbon offsets" come from as a means of restoring this healthy equilibrium.

Another important part of this equilibrium is the ocean, which acts as a natural "sink," or storage place for carbon. However, humans have so quickly and vastly increased the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere in the last 150 years, the ocean is losing its ability to absorb this CO2. In 1960, a metric ton of CO2 released into the air would result in about 400 Kg of it remaining in the atmosphere; in 2006, about 450 Kg remain because of the ocean's decreased ability to absorb it. If we continue to pump increasing amounts into the air, this trend will only continue, meaning more and more of all greenhouse gases released will remain in the atmosphere.

CO2 is Green also makes a blanket claim that "lowering levels of carbon dioxide would actually inhibit plant growth and food production," the idea being that we should burn fossil fuels like crazy to increase vegetation and plant life. This is what is known as a "gross oversimplification." In the first place, plants require more than just carbon dioxide to thrive. They need water and nitrogen. Plants in different climates need varying amounts of these ingredients to thrive. Many forms of plant life have biological mechanisms that regulate their intake of CO2, making an increase in its level irrelevant. Air pollution also contributes to an increased amount of ground level ozone, which inhibit plant growth. Increases in CO2 also lead to the acidification of oceans, which inhibit the growth of phytoplankton, which inhibits the development of marine plant life.

Because CO2 in the atmosphere traps heat, warming the earth's atmosphere, many plants are also now suffering the negative consequences of this warming. Higher winter temperatures have allowed pests to survive at increasingly northern latitudes, subjecting more and more crops to increased pest stress. Forest fires are also becoming more frequent as hot, dry weather becomes the norm. Scientists have overwhelmingly concluded that the negative impacts of climate change to forestry and agriculture will FAR outweigh any small positive consequences of increased levels of CO2.

CO2 Is Green also sort of glosses over the point that if you want more plants to grow, you have to let that happen. If they want to promote more plant life, they'd get there a lot faster by simply supporting sustainable forestation.

And so, you see, one whole side of this great debate thrives only because the reporters hired to write for an environmental section of a newspaper cannot be bothered to learn even the basic facts of their topic area. What the Washington Post has essentially done here is place nonsense on the same footing as science. It's as if they've taken up the flat-earth cause. Now, is there a time and a place to debate whether the earth is flat? Sure! That time and place, however, was in the goddamn 12th century, not a major American newspaper circa 2009.

[Would you like to follow me on Twitter? Because why not? Also, please send tips to tv@huffingtonpost.com -- learn more about our media monitoring project here.]

An article in today's Washington Post reports "New Groups Revive the Debate Over Causes of Climate Change." We are told that a "fractious debate" is brewing! We are further informed that "assumption...
An article in today's Washington Post reports "New Groups Revive the Debate Over Causes of Climate Change." We are told that a "fractious debate" is brewing! We are further informed that "assumption...
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- Richard2 I'm a Fan of Richard2 16 fans permalink

It is interesting that one never finds AGW deniers claiming that there is a "consensus" that AGW doesn't exist. On the other hand, AGW supporters constantly state there is a "consensus­." Why is this?

It appears the deniers are better at observing what is going on around them. For example, reading the comments on this blog, it seems obvious that there is no consensus, and that there are many thoughtful, serious supporters of AGW.

The same thing may apply to climate trends. The deniers have noticed that global temperature have been stable since 1998, and that our coastal cities are not flooding. On the other hand, the AGW supporters still claim there is a consensus, the world is still heating up, and the San Francisco Airport is now underwater.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 10/04/2009
- RomeoMD25 I'm a Fan of RomeoMD25 51 fans permalink

By the way, Minnesota had a record-breaking cool summer this year! Even the mosquitoes didn’t like it and only came out on the few “hot” days we actually had.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 PM on 10/01/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Record-breaking, really? Coolest in the 21st century wouldn't surprise me, since the Sun is at the ebb of its 11-year cycle. Beyond that, I require proof.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 AM on 10/02/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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While we wait for RomeoMD25 to back up his claim, here's some *documented* information about record warm ocean surface temperatures in June of this year.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090725120303.htm

As a general rule, water's higher specific heat makes it a better indicator of a temperature *trend* than air, which gains and loses thermal energy more easily, and is therefore subject to a lot more meaningless fluctuations. Air temperature obviously is what we feel more, but more thermal energy is stored in Earth, ice and water.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090713085248.htm
"The researchers have calculated that the heat energy accumulated in the atmosphere corresponds to a mere 6.6% of global warming, while the remaining heat is stored in the ground (31.5%), melting ice (33.4%) and sea water (28.5%)."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:30 PM on 10/03/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Still waiting for some independent verification of your claim about the "record-breaking" cool Minnesota summer this year.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 PM on 10/03/2009
- plooger I'm a Fan of plooger 14 fans permalink

Good for Minnesota. I guess? But then I don't hear anyone talking about Minnesota Warming, or Minnesota Climate Change.

Localized, short-term measurements are out of context in a discussion regarding a GLOBAL climate change trend.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 PM on 10/05/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Although CO2 all by itself is good for plants ("other things being equal") it doesn't come out of tail pipes and smokestacks all by itself. It is not just a matter of more CO2, and other things being equal.

"Rising Surface Ozone Reduces Plant Growth And Adds To Global Warming"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070725143612.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 09/30/2009
- melmoid I'm a Fan of melmoid 12 fans permalink

I think some of you mean peoples should stop fun making of mioffe. I likes his idea of the pendulum of the cooling air processes. Since the pendulum is drived by the sun, there is no frictions. He could hook up a electical generation and have lots of clean energies. I thinks he should write a pattents on this idea.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 PM on 09/29/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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I sorries. If mioffes will go and write pattents on this pendulum of the cooling air processes, that very good. Then, he not be here. I should have thoughts of this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:03 AM on 09/30/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

mioffe: "What is good in forests and why we must preserve them?"
elmerfude: ""Forests are only good for oxygen..."

As you can read in Tim Flannery book “The Weather Makers,” 2006:

1. “ Forests contain much more carbon than does grass, and they also absorb more sunlight (having different albedo) and produce more water vapor, which affects cloud formation”.
2. “Mature forests don’t take in much CO2 they are in balance, releasing CO2 as old vegetation rots, then absorbing it as new grows. For these reasons the world largest forests-the coniferous forests of Siberia and Canada, and the tropical rainforests are not good carbon sinks, but new vigorously forests are.”

I hope you see differences between answer of elmerfude, which, maybe accidentally, repeat Al Gore and vission of Tim Flannery.

Please let start discussian what is good in forest?
It is very serious question to understand GW and how fight it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:22 AM on 09/29/2009
- elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude 37 fans permalink

You need to learn to read. I never said trees are only good for oxygen. Before you lecture me on my knowledge of science which includes advanced degrees, you should look up the basic equation for photosynthesis. You will on the right of the equation that oxygen is released. For you to ask what forests are good for illustrates a lack of the most basic education.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 09/29/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude I'm a fan of this user 28 fans permalink
Forests are only good for oxygen, shade, furniture, toilet paper, medicine, bird houses, fruit, soil stabilization, watersheds and nuts. Your statement about forests is absurd.



Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/25/iwapoi-reports-on-environ_n_300520.html

and please reread statement of Tim Flannery.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 09/29/2009
- elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude 37 fans permalink

If new vigorous forests are good carbon sinks, then why are you asking what good forests are for? If you like to eat fruit and nuts, sit on wooden furniture, watch birds, wipe with toilet paper, breathe oxygen, read newspapers and many other things too numerous to mention; then forests are important don't you think?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 09/29/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

To make points that even mature forests are good to evaporate water, and we could use old trees for electricity production.
Also we could state that forests collect sun energy in form of wood energy for hundred years.
If we will think about all these and many others properties of forests we could found the cheapest way to confront global warming.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:08 PM on 09/29/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

If we will agree with Tim Flannery that mature forests don't take in much CO2 they are in balance, releasing CO2 as old vegetation rots, then absorbing it as new grows, we must combine it with his statement that forests produce more water vapor, which affects cloud formation”.

It mean any forests are cooling the air by evaporation and clouds formation.

If process of fotosynthesis in mature forest produce the same amount of oxygen, as old trees are taken, when they rots, it is nothing wrong to cut old trees for electricity production.
If GHG from coil are toxic, GHG from the wood are not.

It mean that we could use all GHG ferom the oven in case of wood as source of energy and solve them in water to watering closest to power plant forest.
IT WILL BE ZERO EMISSION POWER PLANT!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:04 PM on 09/29/2009
- melmoid I'm a Fan of melmoid 12 fans permalink

Where I lives, they grows many cottonwoods trees because they grow like gangsterst. They are going to be used to burn for energies. I don't thinks they are going to be solved in water howevers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 09/29/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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How much?

"If we will agree with Tim Flannery that mature forests don't take in much CO2 they are in balance ...”

Wait, exactly how much? I suspect "in balance" is only an approximation and in fact forests are in fact net carbon sinks. Science requires that you quantify all your assertions. You are not meeting the minimum standards of science, still.

"It mean any forests are cooling the air by evaporation and clouds formation.­"

How much?

"If process of fotosynthesis in mature forest produce the same amount of oxygen, as old trees are taken, when they rots ..."

That's a big "if" not supported by the findings of the scientific community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/levi-novey/the-amazon-rainforest-is_b_210409.html

Finally, even if young trees or new forests do convert more CO2 to O2 than old forests, it is disingenuous to pretend that these are the options. When forests are chopped down for old growth timber, everybody here knows that they are not replanted. They are used to grow grass, to grow cattle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 PM on 09/29/2009
- Kenshin I'm a Fan of Kenshin 4 fans permalink

note to all the guys dissing al gore...al is only one of the spokespersons for climate change. there are more personalities than just gore, and u can't bring them all down with insults. find a different strategy other than just dissing gore it's getting old and we know your tune and your operation it don't work on anyone.

i live near nasa research and noaa, the scientists are my neighbors, we hear from them a lot. this is their life's work. i will help their work find the respect it deserves. i also can't bear to watch my beautiful appalachia mountains destroyed by mountain top removal, so it'll be 2 birds 1 stone.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 09/28/2009

It is sad, isn't it? The same, tired, non-rational tactics.

"This guy here, he is such a sore loser!! If HE is trying to warn us about global warming, then well.. it must be some plot to stay famous and popular! Therefore.­. Global Warming is a Myth, because Al Gore is a sore loser and GWB became President. Right?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 AM on 09/29/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear Kenshin, I am respect Al Gore, and studying his books Earth in the balance, 1992 and An Inconvvenient truth, 2006 very carefully.
He and scientists who adviced to him and support him right now have their right for mistakes.
In my opinion, Gore, as politician bring to science of GW more politic that it must to be.
His famos "DEBATES IS OVER" CAME TO LIFE IN BEGINNING.
That is problems and even in this site politic play more role than real science.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 AM on 09/29/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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The WaPo reporters know enough to mention the groups' funding, which is necessary but not sufficient. They should definitely qualify assertions about scientific fact with scientific credentials and the status of this hypothesis among scientists.

What have they published in peer reviewed journals? Does that research pertain to the subject of their opinion? (A frequent problem with "scientists" employed to speak as global warming "skeptics" is opining on subjects with similar-looking descriptions, but not really relevant to climatology at all.) Have they had to retract or correct any part of their work on that subject since publishing it? Do other scientists find their contributions useful and incorporate it into their subsequent work? A thing can be true, but useless or trivial, as in the "news" that plants process CO2. This is irrelevant to the global warming theory and doesn't take 250 words to say so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:29 PM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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"Despite overwhelming public opposition from across the country, and the political spectrum, the Chairman of the FCC, Kevin Martin, isn't letting up in his relentless push to allow a handful of media giants to swallow up more of your local media. He made it official on Tuesday; he intends to lift the long-standing ban that keeps one company from owning both the daily newspaper, and a radio or television station in the same market."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoKXKUnLsY

His rationale, stated in this report by Bill Moyers, is that newspapers are dying and need to own radio or television stations for revenue. Whether this is an honest revelation of his own motive or not, through our Executive Branch instrument the FCC, We The People have been exceedingly generous to the corporate media and we really have the RIGHT to demand better quality than we've gotten in return. Their negligence in science reporting is among the best examples of the need for re-regulation of the news media.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:26 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Molecular weight of H2O is 18, N2-28, O2-32, and CO2-44.
Only water vapor is going UP by their nature.
Only wind could send CO2 UP.
In atmosphere we have water droplets in form of fog, clouds and main reason responsible for visibility. When any GHG molecule will trap IR radiation it is always possible that closest water DROPLET will take from them IR radiation and create at least one molecule of water VAPOR, which has tendency to go up.
If droplet of rain will fall to ground it also will be partially evaporated.
It works like pendulum of cooling the air process, despite water vapor is also GHG. Think about this and stay away from mistakes of Al Gore, his advisers and followers.
IT MAYBE BILLIONS OF BELIEVERS OF AL GORE THEORIES, BUT ALL OF THEM ARE WRONG.
Al Gore and scientists who advised and support him all of them have right to make mistakes, but implementing their wrong vission inpractice by cap&trade, wind, solar cells, nuclear, geothermal power will be the great disapointment for all mankind.
EVERYONE WHO HAVE POSSIBILITIES TO THINK, TELL THESE SUGGESTION TO OUR GOVERNMENT ASAP!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 09/28/2009
- elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude 37 fans permalink

"Water vapor is going up by their nature? Only wind could send CO2 up. It works like pendulum of cooling the air process. "

You need to get together with fumes and share your volatiles. He thinks the weight of the atmosphere can be measured with a coffee pot at Starbucks and you think the closest water droplet will take IR radiation from any CHG molecule and create water vapor which goes up. You both need to contemplate the "pendulum of the cooling the air process" together. I think you will come up with some really strange new physics not to mention keeping the nearest volatile dealer in business.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:14 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear elmerfude, where you see "some really strange new physics"?
Are clouds not water droplets?
Are these water droplets not condensed water vapor?
How often rain bring them back to surface of earth?
What kind of forces bring water vapor to clouds level?
Could you imagine the same amount of any others gases moving to clouds level?
Or maybe in your sober imagination quantum of IR radiation staying in GHG molecules forever?
Stop, please, play smart among not so educated persons. Your sarcasm is workiong against you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 AM on 09/29/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Okay, then if it isn't atmosphere, what IS all the pretty blue stuff above the clouds in this picture?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Top_of_Atmosphere.jpg/300px-Top_of_Atmosphere.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere
Do you believe this photo was faked at the same studio as the moon landing or what?

The height that molecules reach in the atmosphere is determined by their density, not just molecular weight, and that depends on the bond lengths and resulting molecule sizes. In addition, the hydrogen bonds and weak electrical polarity of water molecules encourages them to clump together more than pairs of atoms of the same element like N2 and O2, and more than CO2, which leads to even more weight stuck together than a single water molecule. This is the same feature of the electrical bonds that causes surface tension in liquid water.

density = mass ÷ volume

Molecular weight is a red herring. You need to consider the densities, not the weights, to construct a rational model of atmospheric layers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:53 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear RY, answer please what is density of air above clouds level?

"density = mass ÷ volume", please reread in any course of Physics, or Chemistry definitions of molecular weight, Avogardo's number and their relation with density and volume for gases.
And if this will not help, please read what I send to you before: HUMIDITY UP, PRESSURE DOWN, HUMIDITY DOWN, PRESSURE UP.
Or put teapot on any source of energy and look in what direction you could foun visible steam, from invisible water vapor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 AM on 09/29/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear RY, it is also special for you:
H2O-molecular weight-18.­016, density(kg­/m3)-.804
N2-28.02,-­1.2506
O2-32-1,4290
CO2-44.01-­1.977
CO2/H20-44­.01/18.016­=2.4428-1.­977/.804=2­.4589
As you see corellation between molecular weight and density is close and will be equal in case of ideal gases.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:03 AM on 09/29/2009
- elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude 37 fans permalink

I am going to write my Congressman today and ask him to speed up the pendulum of cooling the air process and to get busy with "main reason" which is responsible for all that visibility. Maybe he can more water droplets to take IR from CHG and make some more water vapor. After all Congressmen are good at giving and taking. We also need to stop all solar, nuclear, geothermal, wind and cap power at once.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:05 PM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Very entertaining!

I suppose mioffe's broken English might be an effective gimmick, at least to some in the audience. I mean, I could imagine somebody reasoning that "it seems complex, and he can almost construct a grammatically correct sentence, and foreign languages are so very difficult after all, and English is supposedly among the most difficult ... So I assume his comment means SOMETHING and I just don't know enough about science to get it." They'd be wrong, but it would be an understandable mistake.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:42 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear elmerfude and RY, I am working on my English, please work on your knowledge of science.
I look in your sarcasm as lack of knowledge to answer on simple questions or suggestions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 AM on 09/29/2009
- Kenshin I'm a Fan of Kenshin 4 fans permalink

every scientist i talk to understands fully climate change and it is happening and we're pretty darn certain it is totally man-made.

water vapor is also increasing in our upper atmosphere due to climate change...n­ot good. it freezes into crystals and acts as a catalyst for CFC's to deplete the ozone layer even faster. its especially not good for microscopic sea life at the north pole, which are very sensitive to UV radiation. it is a shame that we are just now discovering new life forms on earth, only to watch them be wiped out by climate change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Dear Kenshin, I am not arguing about man-made climate change,
About CFC's I am reading right now The End of Long Summer, 2009, by Dianne Dumanoski, very powerful book, where she among many others topic is writing how consensus of scientists in their time were wrong about the same CFC.
In any site, which provide ReedYoung and many others in this discussion and many others discussian, which I participate before, I do not see in any model full scale of properties of water.
It mean that they recomendation how to fight global warming is wrong, because they simplify also and reasons for global warming if it is happen. That is really huge problems.
They mostly look on static pictures, which could provide wrong solutions for dynamic world of our planet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 AM on 09/29/2009
- RomeoMD25 I'm a Fan of RomeoMD25 51 fans permalink

No one is saying that we do not need to be environmentalists. I have always been one. I recycle everything they will take and I don't have curbside pickup. I have to drive 10 miles with it in my car!

I DO NOT believe in global warming. They are two different things. Al Gore stands to profit on this nonsense!

Even IF the ice melted, it would take up less space than it does frozen, so saying the seas will rise is utter crap.

Let me see, didn't we just go through a ton of snow last year?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 PM on 09/28/2009
- cmvortex I'm a Fan of cmvortex 6 fans permalink

I applaud your concern for the environment. But I'm worried about your view on global warming.

Sure, the eastern US/Canada have been in a cool period over the last two years, but that's not a global climate perspective. Look at the long trends here (everywhere, and over the tropics):
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.E.lrg.gif
(Credit: NASA)

Ok, so the earth is warming. And yes, if Greenland melts (which it most likely won't in our lifetimes, nor our children's lifetimes) and/or much of Antarctica melts, sea level rise will sink coastal cities and islands. Still, even the more plausible ice melt projections should contribute to some sea level rise.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Al Gore gives every cent from his investment to charity. Absolutely all of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:54 PM on 09/28/2009
- dctackett I'm a Fan of dctackett 9 fans permalink

Consider what you actually do know about this entire situation.­.. really consider it... is it general, simplified knowledge, or do you actually know the real state of affairs, do you really understand the scientific basis of it all?

The answer is clear by reading your last sentence..­. if you understood anything about what is commonly called "Global Warming" you would see in an instant that your statement is made of ignorance of actual reality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 09/28/2009
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What is the DOWN SIDE OF BEING WRONG?

1. Assume NO CLIMATE CHANGE AND IT HAPPENS:

Answer: More islands and coast lines are covered/flooded! Solutions take years more to develop and crops fail in 0k1ahoma and other farm states. Food and grain shortages occur and prices skyrocket! America falls behind other nations due to high costs of Energy. China uses low energy costs to their advantage in manufacturing and exports and USA deficits grow!

2. Assume Climate Change is Happening and IT DOES NOT:

Answer: America stops importing 01L with average of 55 MPG and wind and solar energy providing 50% of all Electric Power. America's cost advantages power new Manufacturing Revolution and Exports skyrocket. The deficit drops and average income increases with a shortage of workers to fill all the new technology positions!

Some how I think the DOWNSIDE is scenario 2 is NOT SO BAD!

Let those that want to believe Scenario 1 do so at their OWN RISK! The rest of us should GET to WORK NOW!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:34 AM on 09/28/2009
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True story:

The truth of BIG OIL: In 1977 my friend a mechanical engine genius rebuilt a carburetor for a 1977 Chevy Impala 4dr , BIG CAR , GAS HOG, he got 40 mpg!

HE got a patient on it and that patent was purchased by Mobile for the huge sum of 250k. Patent was never used!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 AM on 09/28/2009
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What was the patent number? I'd like to take a look at it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 PM on 09/28/2009
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LET THEM DENY CLIMATE CHANGE - THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND NOTHING CAN STOP IT!

Much like the early innovative days when automobiles were first being developed.

We need dozens and dozens of ELECTRIC CAR competitors to spur innovation in NEW car technology!

An exciting time for Engineers and technologists!

“In MA we had a lithium-ion battery company go public raising $350 million on day one. They are a leader in battery innovation for automobile­s."

What will happen to BIG 01L and this must be a 1-2 punch in the Gut!

15 mpg to 35 mpg to 99 mpg to 230 mpg to 300 mpg to electric = 0IL imports drop like a rock!

100 to 300 mpg for hybrids and electric cars have to make traders want to sell 0IL NOW!

Going from a SUV with 15 mpg to 300 mpg is a 2,000% improvement in FUEL Efficiency!
__________­__________­_____

Gas prices in 2008 were $5 per gallon in California and $6 per gallon in Canada!

If you drive say 20,000+ miles per year the savings are large!

Moving from a SUV or Truck to a high mileage 40+mpg care makes sense in many ways!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 AM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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Global warming deniers:
What evidence do you require of the greenhouse effect?
What evidence do you offer in refutation of the published and peer-reviewed scientific evidence?
How dare you expect me to take you seriously, then?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 AM on 09/28/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

The evidence I've offered that might change your mind was censored. Huffpost wants to keep you as a loyal member of the zombie army. You're the Huffpost bubble boy. You'll win every fight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:06 AM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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I don't believe you. I think you have noticed that your opponents in this debate are all demanding real science, published in peer reviewed journals, and you've never had anything of the kind, so you're making up this junk about about being censored.

Have you tried posting it to your profile?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

Set of mind.
I am very surprised that even very intelegent persons in this site are trying to show how smart they are, and how not informed are their opponents.
Sorry, but it is kindergarten children position.
Please let start answer on simple questions step by step, it maybe could make some differences in ours minds.
As example let start from deforestation.
What is good in forests and why we must preserve them?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 AM on 09/28/2009
- dctackett I'm a Fan of dctackett 9 fans permalink

What exactly would be the point of this exercise?

Why debate something that doesn't require debating, in a forum online? There is no point to it at all...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

We could say the same about any topic, till time when you stop think that others persons in debate have reason to ask.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:50 AM on 09/29/2009
- elmerfude I'm a Fan of elmerfude 37 fans permalink

Forests are only good for oxygen, shade, furniture, toilet paper, medicine, bird houses, fruit, soil stabilization, watersheds and nuts. Your statement about forests is absurd.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 PM on 09/28/2009
- mioffe I'm a Fan of mioffe 10 fans permalink

"Forests are only good for oxygen"

As you can read in Tim Flannery book “The Weather Makers,” 2006:

1. “ Forests contain much more carbon than does grass, and they also absorb more sunlight (having different albedo) and produce more water vapor, which affects cloud formation”.
2. “Mature forests don’t take in much CO2 they are in balance, releasing CO2 as old vegetation rots, then absorbing it as new grows. For these reasons the world largest forests-the coniferous forests of Siberia and Canada, and the tropical rainforests are not good carbon sinks, but new vigorously forests are.”

I hope you see differences.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 AM on 09/29/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there isn't a big debate on Huffpost because dissent gets moderated away as some of my posts have been. Yet Reed can type insults all day long. You're not convincing anyone else of your views. You're just standing around in one big hippy circle jerk convinced you're all correct.

You have not convinced me though. The CO2 theory was de-bunked when we all learned that CO2 follows warming and not the other way around. Everything since is subterfuge trying to re-prove a failed hypothesis and keep the hoax and the research grants alive.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 PM on 09/27/2009
- Rudderman I'm a Fan of Rudderman 32 fans permalink
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"The CO2 theory was de-bunked when we all learned that CO2 follows warming and not the other way around."

You keep saying that CO2 always follows warming as if it's a fact. Please site a couple of sources to back up this claim.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:39 PM on 09/27/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

Obviously Huffpost doesn't want you to have access to such dangerous information because they moderated my post away. I guess you'll have to do some research on your own.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 PM on 09/27/2009
- Pharos I'm a Fan of Pharos 9 fans permalink

Your "CO2 follows warming" argument is well known to climate scientists. They do not ignore nor are they ignorant of the data. Why don't you do a little research and learn the science as explained by climate scientists, then post about why you think they are wrong.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 PM on 09/27/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

Everything was based on the idea that warming follows a rise in CO2. If that hypothesis is proven false, the entire theory comes crashing down. One would need to start with a new hypothesis about the cause of warming, not try to prove why it still has to be CO2 and that they were right all along.

They are now coming up with wild theories and complex computer models about orbital spin, infrared light, oceanic re-absorption and anything else they can think up, trying to prove the CO2 produced by humans is the cause, when humans produce a fraction of total CO2, which is itself a tiny fraction of all greenhouse gas. At the same time they ignore solar activity, water vapor and the possibility of inherent balancing systems like denser plant growth which would send CO2 concentration in the opposite direction.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 PM on 09/27/2009
- cmvortex I'm a Fan of cmvortex 6 fans permalink

Seriously, what are you talking about? I work in the field and I've followed much of the seminal research on geological timescale CO2. Indeed, more recent ice core analysis suggests a good deal of CO2 is released as the earth warms up in interglacial periods. However, any of these papers also acknowledge the radiative properties of CO2 and the positive feedback that exists with elevated CO2. So a significant proportion of the warming in interglacial periods is also due to the increased CO2. It's both, so don't ignore the inconvenient part of the picture that might shed doubt on your absolutism.

In addition, can you credibly disprove the radiative properties of CO2 and its interaction with longwave (i.e., infrared) radiation? I can't, because it can be rigorously shown that CO2 is a radiatively active molecule that indeed makes it operate as a greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. Thus, it provides warming of the atmosphere.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 09/27/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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So, pity party at your house, then?

When people come to this subject with questions, I show them the respect any person generally deserves. But you, fumes and mioffe don't seek knowledge, you seek to obfuscate. You assert fallacies, and I don't apologize for how I have responded to that.

More than half of voters do think global warming is a serious problem, and that the government should do more about it.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1176967,00.html
So I'm not trying to convince more people, just to stop folks like you from influencing those in the middle, especially non-scientists who perhaps had decided based, at least party, on trust in the scientific community, and are thus susceptible to being dissuaded by character attacks on Al Gore. Since that's the angle you've taken, I reply accordingly. You asked for it. Cry me a river.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 09/28/2009
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More than half of voters do think global warming is a serious problem, and that the government should do more about it.

So, Voters poll should determine validity of science?

Liberal logic at work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:25 AM on 09/28/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

"Pity party at your house"

What are you five years old? Perhaps you should state your credentials since you are claiming expert status in the field. I'm guessing you have none since your entire strategy is to silence any skepticism, which everyone is entitled to.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 AM on 09/28/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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The "CO2 theory" was proven in the 1950s. No exaggeration.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm#S2

So now, we all know that CO2's infrared emission bands differ from water, preventing more heat from escaping the atmosphere as we produce more CO2. So to refute the theory that this greenhouse effect is warming the Earth, you'd have to explain, now that less of the Sun's energy escapes back to space, where is it going, and how is it getting there? Vega? Quantum tunneling, perhaps?

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm
In the 19th century, scientists realized that gases in the atmosphere cause a "greenhouse effect" which affects the planet's temperature. . . At the turn of the century, Svante Arrhenius calculated that emissions from human industry might someday bring a global warming. . . In 1938, G.S. Callendar argued that the level of carbon dioxide was climbing and raising global temperature, but most scientists found his arguments implausible. It was almost by chance that a few researchers in the 1950s discovered that global warming truly was possible. In the early 1960s, C.D. Keeling measured the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere: it was rising fast. Researchers began to take an interest, struggling to understand how the level of carbon dioxide had changed in the past, and how the level was influenced by chemical and biological forces. They found that the gas plays a crucial role in climate change, so that the rising level could gravely affect our future.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 09/28/2009

This would be a joke were it not for "CO2 is Green" being serious.

Perhaps the all time best example of Junk Science as a lobbying medium I have seen.

Do these people really believe you can burn a trillion barrels of oil in 100 years without setting the stage for a mass extinction event? I suppose if one ignores the carbon isotope ratios of the carbonate layers in the geologic record one might be led to imagine you could melt the permafrost, acidify the oceans and still have a habitable planet -- for bacteria.

Dream on -- dream on -- Yes Mr. and Mrs America -- we are going to continue to grow our Debt Fueled Consumption Economy by importing manufactured products from China and oil from the Persian Gulf, Venezuela and Nigeria. Because our national wealth will be created by entitlement? Wall Street profits?

Wall Mart pensions?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:18 PM on 09/27/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

"This would be a joke were it not for "CO2 is Green" being serious."

I think the point is that you can't prove the opposite is true. CO2 increase follows warming by 800 years. In the history of planet earth it has never caused warming before, it has been caused by warming. So now you're saying that it will cause the warming this time and not the other way around. That is a massive hole in the argument, and a new theory that cannot be proven with computer modeling. One could easily produce a computer model that shows the opposite results.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 PM on 09/27/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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"One could easily produce a computer model that shows the opposite results."

Which "one" could do so? This one? "That one"? You?

Look, the greenhouse properties of CO2 are not disputable. They have been common knowledge to scientists since the 1950s. Increasing concentration of CO2 means less radiation of heat into space, period. Legitimate scientists who have tried to show zero or negligible net global heat increase looked for alternative heat sinks. They've run into dead ends, which is why for over a decade, petroleum and coal corporations have been sponsoring increasing quantities of decreasing quality propaganda such as you're parroting. Whoever told you that CO2 cannot drive climate change in the present and future just because it didn't in the past, is taking you for a fool. I'm really not. I'm expecting better from you. Think, man.

"CO2 increase follows warming by 800 years. In the history of planet earth it has never caused warming before, it has been caused by warming."

Can you think of *anything* else that has never happened before? There has only been the one Industrial Revolution. Before human industry, nothing but the Sun, volcanoes, major tectonic movements and asteroids *could* drive major climate change. If you really think that CO2 *cannot* drive climate, I challenge you to perform the experiment that Ångström's assistant Koch did.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm#S1
Then read the "Simple models" page to see how that works in the atmosphere.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 AM on 09/28/2009

Greenhouse Tomatos are grown with extra CO2 pumped into the greenhouse because the Tomato plants grow bigger that way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:27 PM on 09/27/2009
- Calinative I'm a Fan of Calinative 21 fans permalink

Now that makes sense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:32 PM on 09/27/2009
- ReedYoung I'm a Fan of ReedYoung 146 fans permalink
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I'm not a tomato plant. Are you? If not, why do you assume that everything that's good for tomato plants is good for you? Was a wire frame necessary to cause you to grow upright?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 AM on 09/28/2009
- dctackett I'm a Fan of dctackett 9 fans permalink

Apparently you've been watching a lot of TV

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:10 PM on 09/28/2009
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