Bangkok Climate Talks: Leaders Warn Time Running Out For Climate Deal

digg Share this on Facebook Huffpost - Bangkok Climate Talks: Leaders Warn Time Running Out For Climate Deal stumble reddit del.ico.us RSS

MICHAEL CASEY | 09/28/09 12:16 PM | AP

What's Your Reaction?
Climate

BANGKOK — The United Nations on Monday warned world leaders they have only 70 days to reach a new deal to limit global warming, while environmentalists pointed to the deadly floods in the Philippines to illustrate the already devastating impact of climate change.

Only hours after negotiations began, rich and poor nations were already flinging their usual rebukes at one another for failing to do their part to reach a deal to replace the Kyoto Protocol, which expires in 2012.

Talks have been deadlocked for months over the industrial countries' refusal to commit to committing to sufficiently deep cuts or provide billions of dollars to poor nations to help them adapt to the impacts of climate change and transition to a low-carbon economy.

The major developing countries like India and China, in turn, have refused to agree to binding targets altogether and are leery of demands that any of their commitments be monitored and verified as part of any agreement.

"Time is not just pressing. It has almost run out," U.N. climate chief Yvo de Boer said, with a clock nearby showing there were 70 days until world leaders are scheduled to meet in Copenhagen to finalize a pact.

"As many leaders have said, there is no plan B," he continued. "If we don't realize Plan A, the future will hold us to account for it."

Some environmentalists tried to raise the sense of urgency by pointing to the weekend tropical storm that set off the region's worst flooding in more than 40 years in the Philippines and left 140 dead. It offered, they said, a glimpse into the kind of turbulent weather that could be unleashed by warming temperatures.

"We are asking the negotiators to look outside these walls. They should realize that it is the people's lives at stake," said Dinah Fuentesfina, a Philippine activist from the Global Campaign for Climate Action Asia.

Story continues below

The need for a deal was also driven home by a U.N. report last week that showed climate-related events such as the melting of glaciers and polar ice sheets and the increasing acidification of the oceans were happening much faster than scientists had predicted even two years ago.

The two weeks of U.N. climate talks in the Thai capital, the second to last meeting before Copenhagen, have drawn some 1,500 delegates from 180 countries who are tasked with boiling down an unwieldy, 200-page draft agreement to around 30 pages that will be presented to ministers in Denmark.

Connie Hedegaard, the Danish minister for climate and energy whose country will host the talks in December, told delegates the world was watching and urged them to build on the momentum that came out of last week's U.N. climate summit where 100 world leaders pledged their support for an agreement.

At the New York summit, President Barack Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao – whose countries are the world's two biggest emitters, each accounting for about 20 percent of greenhouse gas pollution – both vowed tough measures to combat climate change.

Hu said China would generate 15 percent of its energy from renewable sources within a decade, and for the first time pledged to reduce the rate by which its carbon emissions rise. He did not give specific targets.

Most countries agree that the rise in average global temperatures must not exceed 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) above preindustrial levels – a threshold beyond which it is believed serious climate changes would ensue. Temperatures have already risen 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit (0.8 degrees Celsius) since the 19th century.

But so far, there is no consensus on how to stop the warming

Most industrialized nations have offered to cut emissions 15 to 23 percent below 1990 levels by 2020, falling short of the 25 to 40 percent cuts scientists and activists say are needed to hold off warming of 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius).

But the United States has offered much lower targets so far, with a House of Representatives bill proposing to reduce emissions by 17 percent from 2005 levels – only about 4 percent below 1990 levels – by 2020. The Senate has yet to take up the climate bill.

De Boer insisted a deal could still be reached in Copenhagen, but the traditional divisions sprang up quickly on the first day as poor countries repeatedly called for deeper emissions cuts from rich nations.

"Emission reductions of at least 40 percent or 45 percent below the 1990 baseline by developed countries are required and must be announced without further delay," the Indian delegation said in a statement.

Sudan's Lumumba Di-Aping, speaking for the Group of 77 developing nations and China, said it was just as important that developed countries financially help poor nations adapt to the impacts of climate change and develop greener economies.

"Finance and technology are central to achieving a just and equitable deal," Di-Aping said.

But the United States shot back that developing countries would have to do their part – short of binding targets – to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and for the first time agree to a system that would monitor and verify their promised actions.

Jonathan Pershing, the chief American negotiator at the talks, said the United States was ready to make a deal but that it would take actions from every nation big and small.

"No one nation can meet this challenge alone," he said.

___

Associated Press writer Denis D. Gray contributed to this report.

BANGKOK — The United Nations on Monday warned world leaders they have only 70 days to reach a new deal to limit global warming, while environmentalists pointed to the deadly floods in the Philip...
BANGKOK — The United Nations on Monday warned world leaders they have only 70 days to reach a new deal to limit global warming, while environmentalists pointed to the deadly floods in the Philip...
Report Corrections
 
Comments
84
Pending Comments
0
iPhone App Promo

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

What is encouraging is that the nation's largest energy companies are stopping financial support for denial groups. Another large energy producer quit the US Chamber of Commerce over it's climate change denial policy:

"Nation’s largest utility pulls the plug on the Chamber over climate denial. Exelon CEO Rowe says, “Putting a price on carbon is essential, because it will force us to do the cheapest things, like energy efficiency, first.”

http://climateprogress.org/2009/09/28/exelon-leaves-chamber-of-commerce/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 PM on 09/29/2009
- Richard2 I'm a Fan of Richard2 19 fans permalink

Perhaps if the CEOs will look closely at multiple issues involved in the Yamal tree ring scandel, they will change their positions and rejoin the Chamber of Commerce. Is the hypothesis of AGW going to be accepted based largely on unusual measurements from one tree?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:10 PM on 10/02/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

This "supposed controversy" is just another conservative denier talking point and hardly relevant to the rapid rise in temperatures we have seen and the accelerating loss of polar and mountaintop ice. No one will have remembered it two weeks from now just like all the other denier nonsense.

Steve McIntyre of the Watt;s Up With That website who supposedly is the lead denier publicist of the "controversy" has a BS in math and no climate education at all.

Besides than the US Chamber of Commerce will have to quit themselves as they have changed their climate stance to back away from their denier propaganda in the face of declining membership.

"The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which has seen several of its members publicly withdraw from its ranks recently, in response to the organization’s position on climate change, issued the following statement from its president and chief executive, Thomas J. Donohue, on Tuesday:"The U.S. Chamber of Commerce continues to support strong federal legislation and a binding international agreement to reduce carbon emissions and address climate change.""

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/chamber-clarifies-stance-on-climate-policy/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 PM on 10/03/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

Concerning the latest denier talking point about Yamal... Steve McIntyre has imagined totally unfounded allegations.

"McIntyre has based his ‘critique’ on a test conducted by randomly adding in one set of data from another location in Yamal that he found on the internet. People have written theses about how to construct tree ring chronologies in order to avoid end-member effects and preserve as much of the climate signal as possible. Curiously no-one has ever suggested simply grabbing one set of data, deleting the trees you have a political objection to and replacing them with another set that you found lying around on the web (as McIntyre did)."

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=realclimate+&page=1&qsrc=2417&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realclimate.org%2F

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 PM on 10/03/2009
- texfly I'm a Fan of texfly 17 fans permalink
photo

Exactly the same dynamcis as CFC/O3

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 PM on 10/09/2009
- fumes I'm a Fan of fumes 92 fans permalink
photo

professor happer @ princeton:
"But the climate is warming and CO2 is increasing. Doesn’t this prove that CO2 is causing global warming through the greenhouse effect? No, the current warming period began about 1800 at the end of the little ice age, long before there was an appreciable increase of CO2. There have been similar and even larger warmings several times in the 10,000 years since the end of the last ice age. These earlier warmings clearly had nothing to do with the combustion of fossil fuels. The current warming also seems to be due mostly to natural causes, not to increasing levels of carbon dioxide. Over the past ten years there has been no global warming, and in fact a slight cooling. This is not at all what was predicted by the IPCC models." http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/reprint/happer_senate_testimony.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 09/29/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

Yes, but then he misses the obvious point of what is cauing the warming. It certainly is not the 12 year solar cycle at a low time low or the cooling la Nina we had the past year. Temperatures have been rising steadily aince 1900, as the link shows, and we have increased 1C over the last century. CO2 levels have been rising since 1850. A lag between co2 increase and temperature increase is customary. In fact, over the last 400,000 years co2 and temperatures and risen and fallen in tandem. Scientists are well aware of their relationship.

http://www.sciencetime.org/blog/?p=95

Happer, who is a physics professor, and has no publications in the field of climate science, probably just enjoys being a contrarian. His statement that earlier warmings had nothing to do with co2 release is just not true. The temperature increase may have started with a change in the Milanković cycles, but most of the warming took place once the co2 began to be released.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 PM on 09/29/2009
- fumes I'm a Fan of fumes 92 fans permalink
photo

say rp.. if you would be so kind.. define: ''in tandem''

thanks!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 PM on 09/29/2009
- rblackbird I'm a Fan of rblackbird 12 fans permalink

Your first paragraph puzzles me. You say that "Temperatures have been rising steadily (since) 1900, as the link shows..." If the link in question is the one containing Dr. Happer's remarks to which Fumes refers, you are mistaken. The link says, " No, the current warming period began about 1800 at the end of the little ice age, long before there was an appreciable increase of CO2."

This is a big difference. If warming began in 1900 as you say, this is after the 1850 when you say CO2 levels began rising. If the temperature rise began in 1800, fifty years before the rise of CO2 starting in 1850, as Happer actually said, he is correct.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 AM on 10/03/2009
- goodspkr I'm a Fan of goodspkr 13 fans permalink

RP, you are quoting something that doesn't really prove your point and indicates you don't understand basic science.

"A lag between co2 increase and temperature increase is customary. In fact, over the last 400,000 years co2 and temperatures and risen and fallen in tandem. Scientists are well aware of their relationship."

The lag time is because the oceans need time to heat up enough to release CO2 they have dissolved in them. The tandem relationship has about an 800 year lag. What AGW warmists are saying is that the CO2 is increasing for a totally different reason (mankind burning fossil fuels).

But for the last 10 years we have had no temperature increases over land and the last 6 years (since Argo was launched) we've had no increase in ocean temperatures. So where's the heat?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:18 PM on 10/06/2009
- goodspkr I'm a Fan of goodspkr 13 fans permalink

Come on RP, you know that CO2 has significantly increased since the 1940s. We have about 65 years of it while there are 25 years with increasing temperature. That isn't a very good fit (38%).

And if you've read my postings you know feedback is the key to the AGW theory and right now scientific evidence points to the feedback from CO2 being slightly positive or even negative not the 3 to 5 times the actual increase due to CO2 as used by the warmist in their models.

You seem hung up on degrees. You fault McIntyre for being a mathematician when what he is finding in the Hockey Stick is ludicrous math practices. You do know that Einstein had a degree in Physics but considered himself a mathematician and used his math skills to "read the mind of God."

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:21 AM on 10/09/2009
- goodspkr I'm a Fan of goodspkr 13 fans permalink

"Yes, but then he misses the obvious point of what is cauing the warming. It certainly is not the 12 year solar cycle at a low time low or the cooling la Nina we had the past year. Temperatures have been rising steadily aince 1900, as the link shows,"

RP, you have the problem in explaining the lack of warming for the past 10 years the same as skeptics have in trying to show other causes for the warming that occurred from 1975 to 2000. It sounds fragmented and like you are grasping at straws. But the climate is very complicated and all of these factor in. Solar radiance, activity on the Sun, cosmic rays, PDO, AMO, La Nina, etc. factor in. And CO2 and other greenhouse gases also have a role, but where we disagree is on how big that role is.

CO2 has been going up since about 1850 and really going up since about 1945. In the meantime significant temperature increases only occurred in the 1975-2000 timeframe. So 64 years of increasing CO2 which if what you believe is correct should have probably at least (SWAG) 80% of those years showing high temperature gains. But only 38% show that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 AM on 10/09/2009
- RomeoMD25 I'm a Fan of RomeoMD25 56 fans permalink

one of the last major pieces of legislation passed by a congress which never actually read the document was the ‘Stimulus’ Bill or the US Patriot Act.

And we know just how much of a body blow to the Constitution and Bill of Rights that was.

This is a complete fraud, and will do nothing to actually help the environment.

It will, with what will be essentially a surcharge on energy you use, make certain individuals more filthy rich than they already are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 AM on 09/29/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

Blah, blah!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 PM on 09/29/2009
- SworldPeas I'm a Fan of SworldPeas 5 fans permalink

I'm worried about Global warming. We went solar and have a small electric car for short trips around town. We reduced our carbon footprint by almost 90%. We have enough excess power to get a $20.00 credit every month.

2000 sq ft house with average usage
system was $27,000
California rebates = 1/3 off
total cost $18,000
we put down a 10% deposit = $2700
we put the balance on a... hold for it... home equity line of... credit eek I know I know! BUT the payment is cheaper then our monthly electric bill and if I include most of my transportation cost in the EV... the system is paying for itself and it's ALL GREEN.

If the rates go up, which we know they will my credits will only get higher!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

You are honorary 21st century model green citizen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 PM on 09/28/2009

We were warned:

Australians warned us not to allow Rupert Murdoch to infiltrate our free press standards

England warned us not to allow Rupert Murdoch to infiltrate our free press standards

Sir Richard Branson said something like "if we let him, Murdock will destroy democracy".

We ignored Australia and England- look at the dumb down we got!

WSJ- Dumb it Down President!

Wall Street Journal- Once the most trustworthy news in the WORLD

Pitiful and shameful

WSJ: Dumb it Down Mr. President!

The world warned us not to invade Iraq- What did we do?

GOP renamed French Fries and invaded Iraq.

The USA does not even rank within the top 25 countries in the world for education!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

Would Huffpost allocate some of its newly acquired investigative journalistic talents and resources to do a first class in-depth expose on the media empire of Murdoch and Congressional machinations that permitted prestigious press like WSJ and other mass-media to be indiscriminately acquired? Isn't antitrust legal principles involved?

Follow the money trails on how those assets are gobbled up and mastastasized into their current pure unadulterated toxic propaganda media today. That should be extremely enlightening to the American public, to contribute towards understanding and reversing this destructive downward spiral of democracy in USA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:40 PM on 09/28/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

So right! Murdoch and his insipid liars at Fox News are dumbing the country down, dividing us, and playing to people's resentments and fears. He is doing here what he does everywhere and laughing all the way to the bank!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 09/29/2009
- goodspkr I'm a Fan of goodspkr 13 fans permalink

Liberalism relies on a small group of intelligencia and the rest of the population the is uneducated and ill informed. If Murdoch was doing what you say he's doing he'd be helping you folks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:35 PM on 10/06/2009
- Richard2 I'm a Fan of Richard2 19 fans permalink

So a U.N. official, Mr. Boar, is now lecturing the nations of the world that "time is running out."

In what universe is "time running out?" Satellite measurements of global temperatures have shown no warming since 1998. Even Andrew Revkin of the New York Times has noticed that the earth's temperature has been stable for ten years. Also, Dr. Latif, a noted climate expert, expects the earth to cool during the next decade, and he makes a reasonable argument to support this forecast.

The earth is billions of years old. Human civilization is thousands of years old. In what sense is time running out? Time doesn't end. It runs on. Yet Mr. Boar argues that if mankind does act this month, all of civilization is lost.

It there no nation on the planet brave enough to assault the citidel of global warming?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 PM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

Your claims are extremely and patently weak, because you have not provided one single reference link that can be checked to demonstrate validity of your assertions, reliability of data, and credibility of the authors.

Have you not heard of "climactic tipping points"? Have you not seen, examined, and understood the photographic evidence of melting mountain glaciers on ALL 7CONTINENTS? Mountain glaciers don't melt and disappear because the Earth's surface atmosphere is cooling. Millions of tons of ancient icefields accumulated over thousands and hundred thousands of years are melting and rapidly disappearing because . . .

the atmosphere is getting PROGRESSIVELY WARMER !!! tummy.

Have you checked and understood the significance of those photographic evidence? Now you come here talking about end of time, and you haven't even tackled the most pressing issues discussed at recent forums of national political leaders of over 100 nations. There are a lot of well-informed and concerned readers at Huffpost, and you're addressing us like some village idiots with your pulp idiocy.

To start with, get Al Gore's book and DVD on "An Inconvenient Truth", and address the scientific points raised in them. This documentary video won a recent Emmy Award for excellence. Al Gore won the Nobel Prize for Peace (2007) for his tireless efforts to raise consciousness of the entire global community about the perils of global warming.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:31 PM on 09/28/2009
- Richard2 I'm a Fan of Richard2 19 fans permalink

The Andrew Revkin article from the New York Times is an adjacent "climate change" article here on the Huffington Post. It links with the original New York Times article. Mr. Revkin mentions Dr. Latif in his article. Please take a look at it.

Satellite measurements of global temperatures are provided by the University of Alabama at Huntsville (UAH) and by two other sources. These measurements indicate that the earth's temperature peaked in 1998, and that the earth's temperature has been roughly stable since then.

The NOAA has a website with sea level measurements from tide stations in the U.S. and for other nations around the world. The tide station data generally indicate peak sea levels in 1998, with measurements being marginally lower since then. The sea level trends generally support the statement that the earth's temperature peaked in 1998.

Currently the measurements of the Antarctic sea ice extent, which are updated daily on the internet, show that the sea ice expanded to a new high maximum this month, and this amount of sea ice is above the long term average measurement since satellites began making the measurements. Antarctica is home to most of the ice on this planet.

The Arctic sea ice extent is below the long term trend. However, the minimum sea ice extent this month was 23% larger than two years ago, which was a recent low.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:03 PM on 09/29/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 173 fans permalink

Moutaintop glaciers are melting all over the world and you say temperatures are stable. The oceans are at their hottest on record this summer and the Arctic was 9 degrees f warmer the last two years than average and Richard pretends temperatures are stable. Dr. Latif was talking about a slowing of the North Atlantic Oscillation which brings warm currents up from the equator in the Atlantic and warms Europe. He is a firm believer in warming.

Richard, you clearly have no understanding of science and how it works. Nations to do act to assault scence, perhaps regimes like the Taliban do. If you prefer a country that censors science I suggest moving there. if any citadel in science is to fall it is done through the scientiifc process and scientiific papers published in peer-reviewed journals. The only thing is all the scientific works supports warming and this is why deniers want some political movement to make an assault on it. Your phrase shows the contempt in which you hold science and free thought. Instead of assaulting it, you should attempt to understand it because your posts show a naive attempt at distortion and propaganda.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:22 PM on 09/29/2009
- dandypuddin I'm a Fan of dandypuddin 187 fans permalink
photo

The US should be leading on this, not stalling and footdragging. That high unemployment could be solved if the US actually led on this crisis. But maybe Wall Street kind of like the high unemployment rates. But I don't think high temperature will do much for business...as usual.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

The perceived conflict of interests and the parties involved are fairly simple. The oil, natural gas, and coal industries perceive that they would stand to lose trillions dollars of profits if drastic CO2 carbon emission controls are put in place by all nations of the global community. Those industries only focus narrowly on profits, to the exclusion of human health and survival concerns, moral responsibilities, and inter-generational spiritual values. These conflicts of interests do not seem to bother the CEO's and corporate managements of those multinational corporate cartels. Those corporations are truly and totally amoral organizations. It is a grievous error of political judgment and legal logic that Congress gives those corporations charters of incorporation in perpetuity, and endowed with the full legal rights and privileges of a real live human being.

Ask any sensible rational person, and we would all agree that this society and nation have inadvertently created thousands of alive and grotesquely growing and devouring FRANKENSTEIN MONSTERS !!! For the sake and survival of humanity and life on this planet Earth, we all collectively have to come to grips with this bizarre historical aberration that is literally killing off the host human society.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 PM on 09/28/2009
- tripper69z I'm a Fan of tripper69z 8 fans permalink

Chopin, Have you seen their new "green" ads talking about how good CO2 is for life on Earth? They don't mention anything about quantities. They're totally twisted and it's a shame that many people will be just confused enough to believe them.
Prepare for the storms to come.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 09/28/2009
- tabatha I'm a Fan of tabatha 9 fans permalink

At the least the U.S. military is not denying climate change.

Rather, they're preparing for it. They are well aware that as early as our lifetimes, wars will break out over dwindling supplies of water, land, resources.

Looks as if China may take the international lead here. They're determined to have a green economy and are ramping up production of a variety of green-energy products, including solar panels.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:09 PM on 09/28/2009
- RomeoMD25 I'm a Fan of RomeoMD25 56 fans permalink

140+Major corporations+us government(including China) invested billions
to fund this hoax
we can disappoint Goldman,Exxon,Monsanto

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 AM on 09/28/2009
- dandypuddin I'm a Fan of dandypuddin 187 fans permalink
photo

Your posts are curiously devoid of logic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 09/28/2009
photo

What is the DOWN SIDE or RISK OF BEING WRONG?

1. Assume NO CLIMATE CHANGE AND IT HAPPENS:

Answer: More islands and coast lines are covered/flooded! Solutions take years more to develop and crops fail in 0k1ahoma and other farm states. Food and grain shortages occur and prices skyrocket! America falls behind other nations due to high costs of Energy. China uses low energy costs to their advantage in manufacturing and exports and USA deficits grow!

2. Assume Climate Change is Happening and IT DOES NOT:

Answer: America stops importing 01L with average of 55 MPG and wind and solar energy providing 50% of all Electric Power. America's cost advantages power new Manufacturing Revolution and Exports skyrocket. The deficit drops and average income increases with a shortage of workers to fill all the new technology positions!

Some how I think the DOWNSIDE in scenario 2 is NOT SO BAD!

Let those that want to believe Scenario 1 do so at their OWN RISK! The rest of us should GET to WORK NOW!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

Philip,

As usual .. your post is SPOT ON!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:39 AM on 09/28/2009
- RomeoMD25 I'm a Fan of RomeoMD25 56 fans permalink

Its the same argument Bush used before the war in Iraq

preemptive war

The scholar Abraham D. Sofaer identifies four key elements for justification of preemption

1. The nature and magnitude of the threat involved;
2. The likelihood that the threat will be realized unless preemptive action is taken;
3. The availability and exhaustion of alternatives to using force; and
4. Whether using preemptive force is consistent with the terms and purposes of the U.N. Charter and other applicable international agreements.

so i guess you're a bush supporter

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 PM on 09/28/2009
- dandypuddin I'm a Fan of dandypuddin 187 fans permalink
photo

The GOP prefers to let the free market decide the planet's temperature. Sad, but true. This is the #1 issue facing mankind.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

Philip, I'm usually admirer of your meticulous methodical discussions. But here, Imust take issue with your misleading approach to global warming debate by framing problem+solutions as false dichotomy of AmericansUSA versus China+RestofWorld. If everybody would think logically for amoment, that CLEARLY cannot be the real issue. The unprecedented devastating effects, damage to economies, to physical security, to military security, pain, diesease, suffering, droughts, famines, pandemic plagues, continential firestorms, continual globe-encircling Katrina size hurricanes, submerged coastal cities, continental mass migrations (hundredmillions), the systemic disasters are endless. Dr. StephenHawking expressed fears of planet Earth evolving to resemble Venus, with runaway temperatures of hundreds of degrees, no liquid water, CO2 saturated atmosphere with surface atmospheric temperatures exceeding a dry sauna.

Unmanageable simultaneous global disasters would render any considerations of US versus elsewhere an irrelevant mootpoint. When that hellish time arrives, like Dante's Inferno, theliving would envy thedead, very literally, . . . and as natural rational consequence of mass psychology of large populations, the pressures+temptations to resort to mass suicides in hundredmillions (by nuclear wars) would be unstoppable. Desperate populations resort to desperate political+military measures that would quickly escalate into mutual annihilation of hundredmillions in dense urban populations --- NYC, LA, Mumbai, Dehli, Shanghai, Beijing, Western Europe, MiddleEasternRegion, etc.

People should not project normal human responses to unprecedented abnormal environments never before experienced in human history. Todo so would be unimaginative useless exercise.
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 09/28/2009
photo

LET THEM DENY CLIMATE CHANGE - THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND NOTHING CAN STOP IT!

Much like the early innovative days when automobiles were first being developed.

We need dozens and dozens of ELECTRIC CAR competitors to spur innovation in NEW car technology!

An exciting time for Engineers and technologists!

“In MA we had a lithium-ion battery company go public raising $350 million on day one. They are a leader in battery innovation for automobiles."

What will happen to BIG 01L and this must be a 1-2 punch in the Gut!

15 mpg to 35 mpg to 99 mpg to 230 mpg to 300 mpg to electric = 0IL imports drop like a rock!

100 to 300 mpg for hybrids and electric cars have to make traders want to sell 0IL NOW!

Going from a SUV with 15 mpg to 300 mpg is a 2,000% improvement in FUEL Efficiency!
__________ __________ _____

Gas prices in 2008 were $5 per gallon in California and $6 per gallon in Canada!

If you drive say 20,000+ miles per year the savings are large!

Moving from a SUV or Truck to a high mileage 40+mpg care makes sense in many ways!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

There is NO way the world is going to coperate enough to stop global warming.Just listen to our own people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:57 AM on 09/28/2009
- dandypuddin I'm a Fan of dandypuddin 187 fans permalink
photo

It is the United States that will be the problem. Most of the world is ready to act.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 09/28/2009
photo

"Time is not just pressing. It has almost run out,"

Tick tick tick tick Buzzz

Time is up - all the plants breathed a sigh of relief.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 AM on 09/28/2009
- raoul99 I'm a Fan of raoul99 5 fans permalink

"Time running out" because more and more people realize the planet isn't actually getting warmer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:14 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

Too true. It has actually been cooling over the last decade.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:36 AM on 09/28/2009
- ibsteve2u I'm a Fan of ibsteve2u 159 fans permalink
photo

All ya'll global warming skeptics should put your money where your mouth is and move to the Maldives.

lollll...knowing the type who typically cries foul over global warming, I have to ask: How much real estate have you cornered in the foothills of the Rockies?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

Do

HA HA HA HA HA HA ... did you learn that from the same text book that says man lived at the same time as dinosaurs? ... HA HA HA HA

Sept 11,2009 - NASA released Earth Temperature Data http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ArcticEffect.pdf ... If you click on NASA link I provided you will see the Earth's Temperature is getting .... warmer over the last decade.

You do know NASA has been monitoring the earth's temperature for a long time?

Also, if you take off your tinfoil hat & read REAL news you will learn the icecaps are melting:
From Alaska Daily News:
Aug 3, 2009, "Alaska's glaciers are melting. With few exceptions, our majestic rivers of ice are becoming measurably less majestic. They are loosing mass, growing thinner and retreating back toward the higher altitudes of their snowy birth."

From Alaska Daily News:
Aug 3, 2009, "While the debate about climate change being the result of natural earth processes or human activity continues unabated, Alaska's glaciers are dramatically and irrefutably demonstrating the consequences of that change."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 AM on 09/28/2009
- Tazru I'm a Fan of Tazru 63 fans permalink
photo

Two words: Solar Minimum.

We need to fix our Schools!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:22 AM on 09/28/2009
- dandypuddin I'm a Fan of dandypuddin 187 fans permalink
photo

Sorry, debate on climate change has ended. You need to catch up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 09/28/2009
- Emucrat I'm a Fan of Emucrat 47 fans permalink
photo

Since I was eight '98 and heard about global warming, which has shaped my life, I am waiting for a sign of the international community to act. This hasn't happened yet although nothing on earth can threaten humankind more than global warming.

In fact we are already too late to prevent it, but we have to move now to prevent even worse things. The reason why people do not believe in global warming and/or do not act is their belief that it would not affect them. Indeed, the most vulnerable will suffer the most from our irresponsibility. but we will also struggle: California will face more heat waves and desertification, Florida and the Southern states stronger hurricanes. And what nobody considers: By the end of this century, we won't have any natural beaches. The great Plain will become dry irreversibly. Just a few millions so-called "treehuggers" really know hwo horrible it is going to be. And the worst i.gnorants, the baby boomers will have already died when it is happening. :-(

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

bu//sh*T, and you have zero data that can be verified to back up your assertion which is the entire problem with all the global warming alarmists. Everything they have is theory or a guess. None of it is verifiable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 AM on 09/28/2009
photo

Do,

Here is the Sept, 2009 Data from NASA backing up that the Earth's Temp. is WARMING...

Sept 11,2009 - NASA released Earth Temperature Data http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ArcticEffect.pdf .

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:24 AM on 09/28/2009
- Tazru I'm a Fan of Tazru 63 fans permalink
photo

Go take a Science Class, you desperately need it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:24 AM on 09/28/2009
- Chopin I'm a Fan of Chopin 76 fans permalink

Dover and raoul, this is not personal. The issue is a question of continued existence or extinction of life on this planet Earth. It involves something so fundamental and all encompassing that will affect every living creature on this planet, from the minutest virus and single-cell bacteria to the giant whales and human specie 50to100yearsAND1000years from now.

Ask yourself this series of objective questions, and be satisfied in your own mind and soul that you give them your most serious thoughts, care and judgment, on which the question of life or death and extinction of life of yours and other people's future descendants, from grandchildren, to great-great-great-grandchildren who would live or die 100years from now all depend. You know, and I know that neither you nor I expect to be living 100years from now. But the CONSEQUENCES of the decisions, opinions and actions from you, me, and the rest of 6billion humanbeings have far and irreversible and unrevocable implications on their future existence. Since they are not yet born, they would have to rely totally without reservation on our generation alive today to make those important far-reaching decisions and take those life and death decisions ON THEIR BEHALF. Their life and death, happiness and well-being depend on US --- you and I and us humans alive today.

Here're the questions:--

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 AM on 09/28/2009
- Richard2 I'm a Fan of Richard2 19 fans permalink

When you were eight, in 1998, the earth's temperature peaked. Also, the mean sea level readings peaked at many tide stations, such as the NOAA stations along the Pacific Ocean. Since then, there has been no additional warming, and the sea level readings have dropped back modestly.

We actually have been having a very stable climate. It is amazing that many people don't seem to recognize this, or appreciate how fortunate we all have been during this period.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:40 PM on 10/07/2009
Comments are closed for this entry

 You must be logged in to comment. Log in  or connect with 

Connect