DADT Study: Women Far More Likely To Be Expelled Under Policy

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LISA LEFF | 10/ 8/09 05:36 PM | AP

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SAN FRANCISCO — Women are far more likely than men to be kicked out of the military under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy against gays in uniform, according to government figures released Thursday that critics said reflect deep-seated sexism in the armed forces.

Women accounted for 15 percent of all active-duty and reserve members of the military but more than one-third of the 619 people discharged last year because of their sexual orientation.

The disparity was particularly striking in the Air Force, where women represented 20 percent of all personnel but 61 percent of those expelled. That is a significant jump from the previous year and marks the first time women in any branch of the military constituted a majority of those dismissed under "don't ask, don't tell," researchers said.

Nathaniel Frank, a researcher at the Palm Center, a University of California, Santa Barbara, center specializing in gays and the military, said one partial explanation is that homosexuality is more common among women in the service than among their male comrades.

But Frank and some women who served in the military said the gap could also be a result of "lesbian-baiting" rumors and investigations that arise when women rebuff sexual overtures from male colleagues or do not meet traditional notions of feminine beauty.

"Often times the lesbians under my command were under scrutiny by the same men who were also sexually harassing straight women, so it was this kind of sexist undercurrent of 'You don't belong here,'" said Anuradha Bhagwati, a former Marine who founded the Service Women's Action Network, an advocacy group.

Pentagon spokeswoman Cynthia Smith said officials would not speculate on why women accounted for a disproportionate share of those dismissed for being gay, adding that even inquiring about it might run afoul of "don't ask, don't tell."

"If we did investigate it, we would have to ask questions, and we aren't supposed to ask any questions," Smith said.

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Under the 1993 policy, gay men and lesbians in the military cannot be investigated or punished as long as they keep their sexual orientation to themselves. The policy has led to the discharge of about 13,000 service members.

The latest statistics were obtained from the Pentagon by the Palm Center and released as activists step up pressure on President Barack Obama to sign an executive order repealing the gay ban in the military. The president is scheduled to deliver the keynote address Saturday at a fundraising dinner for the nation's largest gay rights group. A White House spokesman said the president "is intent on making progress" on the issue.

In 2007, 49 percent of Air Force personnel discharged for being gay were women, up from 36 percent in 2006.

In the Army, women accounted for 14 percent of personnel and 36 percent of the "don't ask, don't tell" discharges in 2008; in the Navy, it was 14 percent of the personnel and 23 percent of the discharges, and in the Marines, 6 percent and 18 percent.

"It's very clear the military comes down harder on women than on men, but the question of whether they come down harder on lesbians than on gay men is harder to answer," said Palm Center director Aaron Belkin. "We don't know whether the statistics reflect lesbian-baiting or just a higher rate of lesbians in the military."

Frank said the increases are all the more surprising because the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was largely driven by the argument that "straight men won't tolerate serving alongside known gays."

Julianne Sohn, the lone female Marine officer discharged under the policy last year, was a lieutenant who had served a seven-month tour in Iraq as a reservist when she received a telephone call at home from a lieutenant colonel informing her she was under investigation for being a lesbian.

The call was not a surprise. Some of her fellow Marines, who knew about her sexual orientation, had given her a heads-up a few months before.

Sohn had been speaking publicly about her experience as a gay officer as part of an organized effort to spotlight the costs of "don't ask, don't tell." She said she could not respond honestly when colleagues wanted to know why she did not have a boyfriend, and said she asked her brothers to contact her girlfriend if she were killed in Iraq because she did not want to list a woman as her next of kin.

Sohn, 33, who now works as a police officer in Los Angeles, said hearing the investigating officer read her the military's equivalent of a criminal suspect's Miranda warning over the phone was a fresh insult.

"The way I look at is, all I've done is tell my story," said Sohn, who did not fight the inquiry and was honorably discharged. "I wanted to serve, and I did serve."

SAN FRANCISCO — Women are far more likely than men to be kicked out of the military under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy against gays in uniform, according to government figures released Thu...
SAN FRANCISCO — Women are far more likely than men to be kicked out of the military under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy against gays in uniform, according to government figures released Thu...
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As a straight female military retiree, I take offense at other peoples' quasi-antr­opological speculation as to why and what kind of women join the military. We are people too, not lab animals, not children of a lessor god. Rather than patronizing speculation, why not ask a female military service member why she joined? The military is a microcosm of the communities from which we come. We have various feelings, aspirations and personalities just like real people. We join the service for most of the same reasons men do; education, economic opportunity, service, patriotism, heritage/tradition, escape from negative/d­estructive circumstan­ces...

We take our oath to support and defend the Constitution. We perform our duties, carrying out foreign policies dictated by the civilians above us. Whether we agree or not is immaterial; orders are orders. In such cases we press on for the sake of our fellow soldiers, to have your buddies' backs. Often we are the scapegoats of bad foreign policy decisions. Those who consider themselves more spiritual than others project the shadow traits onto us that they think they are above and don't want to own up to. In their contempt for soldiers, I see their agression, militant obstinancy and judgementalness. "What did I ever do to them?" I ask myself. Why bother even serving people who treat me like that? In fact, one man IMed me saying, upon learning of my profession, "I'd rather you were a whore!" Dang.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 PM on 10/09/2009

Thank you for your service.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 10/10/2009
- Aaror I'm a Fan of Aaror 43 fans permalink

My suspicion is that the reason women are more likely to be expelled is one no one has brought up. "Queer for a day."
In the military, if you are caught in homosexual relations, you can claim that you are straight, but succomed to stress/pressures of service/lack of female company/etc. A common phrase is "it's not gay if it's underway."
But of course, all this is based on how difficult it is for men to get female attention, so fake "female," attention from another guy is assumed to be a substitute, not a preference.
Now think about a woman, who is outnumbered 3 to 1 or more (sometimes 10 to 1) saying "I couldn't get a guy to do anything with me, so I settled for a woman...
It doesn't work, does it?
If I am correct (and I have no clue if I am), then what is happening is that the vast majority of gay men in the military are able to say "whoops," and stay in the military, as long as they deny their orientation. Women are not allowed that option, so they are kicked out.
Of course, some studies suggest that Lesbian tendancies are far more prevelent in the female population in general than gay tendancies in the male population (when was the last time you saw teenage guys kissing eachother or dancing together like you see girls do?). The military may be kicking out a lot of bisexual women...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 AM on 10/09/2009
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Joe Lieberman successfully inserted into the Homeland Security appropriations bill an amendment -- supported by the Obama White House -- to provide an exemption from the Freedom of Information Act's mandates by authorizing the Defense Secretary to suppress long-concealed photographs of detainee abuse. Two courts had ruled -- unanimously -- that the American people have the right to see these photographs under FOIA, a 40-year-old law championed by the Democrats in the LBJ era and long considered a crowning jewel in their legislative achievements. But this Lieberman amendment, which is now likely to pass, undermines all of that and - its central purpose is to "legalize suppression" of evidence of American war crimes.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/10/08/photos/index.html

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 AM on 10/09/2009
- iplaw I'm a Fan of iplaw 28 fans permalink

I appeal to any country we have an extradition treaty with to please please demand the extradition of Lieberman. With all his dirty tricks and shinnanigans I am sure we can make some criminal charges stick.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:32 PM on 10/09/2009
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The little known secret of DADT: It doesn't affect the men who get all the press. It doesn't affect primarily white men, but women of color.

Ah, I wonder if any LGBT activists or women activist organization want to step forward and argue that DADT is also gender discrimination. Anyone?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 PM on 10/08/2009
- robotfog I'm a Fan of robotfog 23 fans permalink
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it is gender discrimination in a lot of ways.

The military probably attracts people with higher testosterone and/or masculine traits. This would mean a higher number of gay women or transmen choosing the military than it would mean for gay men or transwomen to choose to join. Because (and I'm not trying to stereotype here. If you feel I am, please chalk it up to an inability to better articulate my point) more gay women with masculine gender traits, or who identify as male would join the military than would gay men who may be of a more feminine/caregiving nature or transwomen, who mostly have no desire to be in such an obviously male institution.

ergo, female sexed soldiers who are gay or trans would be more likely to be drawn to the military than male bodied gay or trans people. When the people affected by DADT are counted up, it's more likely to be female bodied soldiers who pay the price because their numbers would be greater.

I tried to make this make sense but I'm on pain medication and I'd like it known that I mean no harm to anyone. Each individual ought to be free to choose the profession which best suits their personality as long as they make it through the training.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 PM on 10/08/2009
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From the article above:
"Often times the lesbians under my command were under scrutiny by the same men who were also sexually harassing straight women, so it was this kind of sexist undercurrent of 'You don't belong here,'" said Anuradha Bhagwati, a former Marine who founded the Service Women's Action Network, an advocacy group.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 10/13/2009
- Two Cents I'm a Fan of Two Cents 28 fans permalink
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I support repealing DADT. However, given the articles posted on this site alone it's pretty clear that the armed forces have cultural and disciplinary issues/problems with sexuality--the culture is extremely patriarchal, sexist and misogynist. It would be worthwhile for the US armed services to study other gender integrated armed forces (if they're better?) and implement training of some sort. (Don't know how, but repealing DADT is insufficen­t.)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 PM on 10/08/2009
- dadw5boys I'm a Fan of dadw5boys 278 fans permalink
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But if Americans ever accepted people being differnet selling hate, division and trying to rule people with emotions would be almost impossible,

They Right Wing would actually be forced to use facts to divide Americans and create divisions in society.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 PM on 10/08/2009

I agree... but we still, in 2009, cant get people to accept people for being another race.... gays and lesbians will have a looooonnnngggg way to go.

Intelorance is passed down generation to generation­... racism falls into that as well

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:38 PM on 10/08/2009
- dadw5boys I'm a Fan of dadw5boys 278 fans permalink
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Hate is one thing longer school days would force out of each generation because exposure to hate on the streets and at home would be more limited .

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:46 PM on 10/08/2009

Well its no secret that lesbians are more attracted to the military than your average straight woman. You need to be tough, physically and emotionally to be in the armed forces, and that is typically where the lesbians come in. The women are not the issue.... its the men. Because a gay man is more likely to be attacked for being a "f a g" or be seen as weak by his male counterpar­ts... women dont typically care about a gay woman. Women are more likely to be discharged bc more of them are lesbians..­. thats not shocking..­. I worked with lesbians during my service time... didnt bother me as long as they did their job... they knew that I am a straight woman, I never had any problems..­.

gay men around straight men, that could be a different problem.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 10/08/2009
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For the most part you are right. I do think that gay guys would have it worse.
But I saw three women get kicked out of the Marine Corps for being lesbians (one in boot camp, two in the fleet). Trust me...they went through hell beforehand.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 PM on 10/08/2009

Its very sad! And thats why I am so on the fence with this issue... it may sound sexist, but the gay guys are who I am worried about. I was a Marine for 4 yrs, and my husband is still an active Marine... he is totally against repealing DADT, and from some of the things I have heard some of these Marines say, knowing for a fact that someone is gay, I think people would deliberately try to hurt them.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 PM on 10/08/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
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I'm sorry, but this is absolute silliness. There are plenty of straight women who are butch as hell, and plenty of lesbians who are girly girls. This is stupid. It's based on stupid stereotypes, and it's sexist. Why is it sexist? Because you're assuming that because being in the army violates your idea of what it means to be a woman, the women in the army must be different from "real" women, i.e. they must be lesbians.

I'm a straight woman and I've worked in stereotypically "manly" professions (carpentry, roofing) and frankly I'm sick of the assumption that if I'm not attracted to being a schoolteacher or a nurse or a secretary, I must also hate the pen!s.

And considering that the army doesn't even acknowledge the presence of lesbians in the military, it's pretty fracking ballsy of them to claim that gay women, who represent less than 10% of the general population, somehow make up 50% or more of female service members? Right. It's a handy way to distract from the sexism, lesbian-baiting, harassment, and rampant sexual assault that female soldiers have to deal with constantly. Please, do not enable this line of BS.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 10/08/2009

Thank you.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:31 PM on 10/08/2009

well from where I was in my unit, and in bootcamp, the gay girls typically were not your lipstick lesbians. Look at what the military entails...­. 9 times out of 10, a female who was the hs cheerleader surely wasnt looking at the military. Its not silliness, its the truth. And yes, there are some very butch looking straight women, but are they the majority? NO! I dont find it sexist, I find it true. You have your opinion, I have mine.... on my front, its based on my own experience­s... please dont try to challenge what I experienced.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 10/09/2009

And sorry, I happen to be a schoolteacher now after my military service...­. does that make me somehow less of a woman than you???

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:02 AM on 10/09/2009
- iplaw I'm a Fan of iplaw 28 fans permalink

Yeah, the tone of the root of this thread was very anti "straight women". I know plenty of gay and straight women. Gay women are not generally "tougher" either emotionally or physically. "Straight" does not equal "weak", lol.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 10/09/2009
- iplaw I'm a Fan of iplaw 28 fans permalink

"You need to be tough, physically and emotionally to be in the armed forces" Wow, bashing "straight women" is not constructive. You could also say that "Straight women" make a conscious decision not to put themselves in situations where they may have to do things shocking to their conscience or destroy America's reputation. Personally I think being under represented in the military is a sign of superior judgement, not weakness.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 10/09/2009
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REPEAL DADT ALREADY!

I'm so f******ng sick of this do-nothing POTUS and Congress!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 PM on 10/08/2009
- Mattie I'm a Fan of Mattie 50 fans permalink

What a shock, women face discrimenation more than men!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:33 PM on 10/08/2009

I know... its in all walks of life... nowhere to escape it.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 10/08/2009

Not gross anyone out..I'm a straight male and I will be turning 40 so It was time to go see doc "PROC"...a­ll I can say is to all gay males.....­...aint no way..and my docter was a female with little hands....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:10 PM on 10/08/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
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TMI

TMI

TMI

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 PM on 10/08/2009
- aftershock I'm a Fan of aftershock 87 fans permalink

You're under the impression that all gay men are "catchers" or even that all gay men enjoy what you're talking about. For starters, there are "tops" and "bottoms" (you can probably figure out which is which) and than there are guys who enjoy neither and stick to frottage and oral sex exclusively. Also, recent studies showed gay men who did engage in anal sex do so on a very infrequent basis.

PS- Maybe she missed you prostate :-P couldn't resist.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 10/09/2009

As a former Male Marine..it­'s hard for women in the Marines..i­f your a women in the Marines your going to hounded by the male Marines because women at the time I was a Marine were far and few...and if you happen to be an attractive women...we­ll lets just say you could get what you wanted...a­nd trust me I saw some women take total advantage of it made me fracking sick.(LESB­IANS ALSO).beca­use it made the other women who tried to get by on their smarts and ability..t­argets...n­ow the flip side was if you didn't take advantage of the flirts then..wow she must be a lesbian and I saw young girls brought up on charges of being suspected of being "GAY"...it was sad.....bu­t I will say this... most of the so called typical women who lots of fellow Marines thought were gay would be shocked to find out most of the Lesbian female Marines..w­ere the so called "LIPSTICK" ones..I don't care who or what ya do just don't try me.....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:07 PM on 10/08/2009

I was a female Marine for 4 years... I never experienced this. I do know some women did, but they were typically the weak ones.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:57 PM on 10/08/2009
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The weak ones experienced what?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 PM on 10/08/2009
- SARGE1 I'm a Fan of SARGE1 31 fans permalink
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Once A Marine You Are Always A Marine !

Uraah
Semper Fi

-Sarge

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 PM on 10/08/2009
- iplaw I'm a Fan of iplaw 28 fans permalink

"Weak ones"? They couldn't pass PT?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:56 PM on 10/09/2009
- Guytar I'm a Fan of Guytar 20 fans permalink
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Many women died in combat in Iraq since start of combat operations in 2003.

Army. Air Force. Navy. Marines. National Guard and Reserves. And career government civilians.

Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Guard and Reserves are supposed to take care of each other no matter what

No woman in a combat deployment should ever be disrespected by her brothers in arms.

Thousands of US military women are serving in Afghanistan today.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 10/08/2009
- jennylynn I'm a Fan of jennylynn 49 fans permalink

Why do we have to know about anyone's sexual preference?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:11 PM on 10/08/2009
- MoeB I'm a Fan of MoeB 48 fans permalink

You don't "have" to know. But please stop pretending as if we are NOT a nosy group of people. We inquire/make accusations about people's sexuality ALL THE TIME...so don't present it as if gays are just FORCING people to hear them shout "out and proud!".

If you're hanging out w/friends in the military, per my own brother, you tend to talk about all sorts of things...g­irlfriends­/boyfriend­s frequently come up. If it's a group of guys and everyone but one guy is talking about their girls, or past girls, or getting some from girls when they get home, and he isn't, they will assume he's gay. Some may ask directly. So it's not like gays are out tapping people on the shoulder to announce they're gay.

So are you proposing that gays LIE about their sexuality because you'd rather not hear about 'the gays'??

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 10/08/2009
- Yeah-Me I'm a Fan of Yeah-Me 36 fans permalink
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You don't need to know my orientation, and under normal circumstances nothing comes up of it... however, if someone were to ask me to my face if I were gay... I certainly wouldn't deny it, nor lie about it.

The same standard should be there for the military..­.

No, a active member should not be required to disclose their orientation nor should they be required to deny it. It is that soldiers choice. Same when a "next of kin" is asked for.

That soldier should be able to list their significant other without fear of persecution. Nor is it any other person's buisness who is listed, unless he/she chooses to disclose that information to another military member.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:15 PM on 10/08/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
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Who's your next of kin?

Who's that in that photo you've got on your computer?

Who were you talking to on the phone?

Who sent you that care package?

Who are you buying that present for?

Why are you upset, did you just break up or something?

Gosh, I can't imagine how sexual preference would EVER come up.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 PM on 10/08/2009
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Quite honestly why should we care about the sexual orientation of our brothers and sisters in the armed forces? What we should concern oursleves with is whether or not they will back their fellow brethren or sister up when it comes down to it!

PFrye55

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 AM on 10/09/2009
- iplaw I'm a Fan of iplaw 28 fans permalink

Apparently it is a huge deal to the "grunts". Kinda like looking for witches 400 years ago.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 PM on 10/09/2009
- Json I'm a Fan of Json 45 fans permalink
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Is any reason for this discrepancy proposed?
I would have guessed the opposite to be true, since society in general is way more tolerant of gay women than gay men.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 10/08/2009

It's because there are many, many more lesbians in the armed forces than gay men. I would assume this is because the military appeals more to lesbians. I feel comfortable making this statement since I am a lesbian in the military. I'd say that about 30% of the females in the Army are gay.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:18 PM on 10/08/2009
- lungfish I'm a Fan of lungfish 106 fans permalink
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Interesting but more than any of us need to know... we respect your service and the rest should not be an issue.
I will say that serving under females who were obviously not only lesbian but felt that they had something to prove to men was rather unpleasant as they apparently intended it to be.... and don't tell me that those politics aren't present. At the same time there are other types of political pitfalls that one can fall into as well...
In any case, its a volunteer service and we should respect those that care to offer their lives in military service.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:14 PM on 10/08/2009
- Guytar I'm a Fan of Guytar 20 fans permalink
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30 per cent of women in the US Military are gay. That's ok by me.

Bush-Cheney stop-loss management policy for US combat forces since 2001 has been an utter disaster.

Se you next time.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:15 PM on 10/08/2009
- valkyrie607 I'm a Fan of valkyrie607 106 fans permalink
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Only in terms of overt expression of sexuality. In terms of employment discrimination, housing discrimination, or other things like that, I don't think you can argue that it's easier being a gay woman than a gay man.

Popular depictions of lesbians in straight pornos notwithstanding.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 PM on 10/08/2009
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What a waste of talent, training and money. Time to drag this country kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and this is a good place to start.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:48 PM on 10/08/2009
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 86 fans permalink
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Obama and the rest of Washington that will not act to end this deserve to have every gay and lesbian in the armed forces quit. They would be decimated.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:15 PM on 10/08/2009
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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Truth is, if every gay and lesbian in the GOP quit, the GOP would be devasted.

Gay men and women serve honorably throughout our government and work force, making our military, government, and economy strong, and deserve the same rights and protections as all other workers.

The Obama Administration needs to grow a pair, do what they promised, do what is right, and stop living in fear of the right wing.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:23 PM on 10/08/2009
- dadw5boys I'm a Fan of dadw5boys 278 fans permalink
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If they were not so greddy they would quit .

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 10/08/2009
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