Turkey And Armenia Sign Historic Accord, Establishing Diplomatic Relations

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MATTHEW LEE | 10/10/09 09:52 PM | AP

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ZURICH — Turkey and Armenia signed a landmark agreement Saturday to establish diplomatic relations and open their sealed border after a century of enmity, as U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton helped the two sides clear a last-minute snag.

The contentious issue of whether the killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians during the final days of the Ottoman Empire amounted to genocide is only hinted at in the agreement.

"There were several times when I said to all of the parties involved that this is too important," Clinton said. "This has to be seen through. We have come too far. All of the work that has gone into the protocols should not be walked away from."

The Turkish and Armenian foreign ministers signed the accord in the Swiss city of Zurich after a dispute over the final statements they would make. In the end, the signing took place about three hours later than scheduled and there were no spoken statements.

Clinton and mediators from Switzerland intervened to help broker a solution, U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity, in keeping with State Department regulations. Better ties between Turkey, a regional heavyweight, and poor, landlocked Armenia have been a priority for President Barack Obama, and Clinton had flown to Switzerland to witness the signing, not help close the deal.

Clinton told reporters traveling later on the plane with her to London that both sides had problems with the other's prepared statement and that the Armenian foreign minister had to call his president several times.

She said it became important just to approve the accord and not have the sides make speeches that could be interpreted as putting legal conditions on the document. She told each country that could be done later, "but let the protocols be the statement because that was what we were there to sign."

The accord is expected to win ratification from both nations' parliaments and could lead to a reopening of their border within two months. It has been closed for 16 years.

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But nationalists on both sides are still seeking to derail implementation of the deal.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the signing a "historic decision" that "constitutes a milestone toward the establishment of good neighborly relations," spokeswoman Michele Montas said in New York.

American officials said Clinton; the top U.S. diplomat for Europe, Philip Gordon; and Swiss Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey were engaged in furious high-stakes shuttle diplomacy with the Turkish and Armenian delegations to resolve the differences.

Diplomats said the Armenians were concerned about wording in the Turkish statement that was to be made after the signing ceremony at University of Zurich and had expressed those concerns "at the last minute" before the scheduled signing ceremony.

Clinton had arrived at the ceremony venue after meeting separately with the Turks and Armenians at a hotel, but abruptly departed without leaving her car when the problem arose.

She returned to the hotel where she spoke by phone from the sedan in the parking lot, three times with the Armenians and four times with the Turks. At one point in the intervention, a Swiss police car, lights and siren blazing, brought a Turkish diplomat to the hotel from the university with a new draft of his country's statement.

After nearly two hours, Clinton and Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian met in person at the hotel and drove back to the university where negotiations continued. It was not clear if there would be a resolution.

In the end, the Turks and Armenians signed an accord establishing diplomatic ties that could reduce tensions in the troubled Caucasus region and facilitate its growing role as a corridor for energy supplies bound for the West.

The agreement faces nationalist opposition, and protests have been particularly vociferous among the Armenian diaspora.

"The success of Turkey in pressuring Armenia into accepting these humiliating, one-sided protocols proves, sadly, that genocide pays," said Ken Hachikian, chairman of the Armenian National Committee of America.

Major countries, however, expressed their support for the accord, with the foreign ministers of the United States, Russia, France and the European Union in the room to watch the much-delayed signing.

"No problem, they signed," quipped French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner.

In Turkey, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said his country was showing "goodwill" to restore ties with Armenia. But he said Turkey was keen on seeing Armenian troops withdrawn from Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian-occupied enclave in Azerbaijan that has been a center of regional tensions.

"We are trying to boost our relations with Armenia in a way that will cause no hard feelings for Azerbaijan," Erdogan told reporters.

Armenian President Serge Sarkisian said his country was taking "responsible decisions" in normalizing relations with Turkey, despite what he called the unhealable wounds of genocide.

The agreement calls for a panel to discuss "the historical dimension" of the killing of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians during World War I. The discussion is to include "an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations."

That clause is viewed as a concession to Turkey, which denies genocide, contending the toll is inflated and that those killed were victims of civil war.

"There is no alternative to the establishment of the relations with Turkey without any precondition," said Sarkisian. "It is the dictate of the time."

Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, thanked Turkey, which is a candidate for European Union membership.

"This is an important cooperation, no doubt, of Turkey to solve one issue that pertains to a region which is in our neighborhood," Solana told AP Television News.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov also was present for the ceremony in Switzerland, whose diplomats mediated six weeks of talks between Turkey and Armenia to reach the accord. The signing took place in Zurich University's Churchill room, where Winston Churchill gave a speech in 1946.

Swiss Foreign Ministry spokesman Lars Knuchel declined to comment on the contentious issue of speeches but said the important thing was that the accord was signed. He said Switzerland stood ready for further mediation, if both Armenia and Turkey request it as both sides seek to implement the accord and build on them.

A Turkish official, who was not authorized to speak and demanded anonymity, said all sides were happy to dispense with the statements and that the important thing was the signatures means the process can continue.

But Turkey's Ahmet Davutoglu appeared the far happier top envoy as he smiled broadly while posing for photographs and greeting the other foreign ministers in attendance. Armenia's Nalbandian, by contrast, only grudgingly smirked as he shook Davutoglu's hand.

Yilmaz Ates of Turkey's main opposition Republican People's Party said the country should avoid any concessions.

"If Armenia wants to repair relations ... then it should end occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh. That's it," Ates said Saturday.

About 10,000 protesters rallied Friday in Armenia's capital to oppose the signing, and a tour of Armenian communities by Sarkisian sparked protests in Lebanon and France, with demonstrators in Paris shouting "Traitor!"

On the Nagorno-Karabakh issue, Turks have close cultural and linguistic ties with Azerbaijan, which is pressing Turkey for help in recovering its land. Turkey shut its border with Armenia to protest the Armenian invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh in 1993.

Turkey wants Armenia to withdraw some troops from the enclave area to show goodwill and speed the opening of their joint border, but Armenia has yet to agree, said Omer Taspinar, Turkey project director at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

"We may end up in a kind of awkward situation where there are diplomatic relations, but the border is still closed," Taspinar said.

___

Associated Press Writers Alexander G. Higgins and Bradley S. Klapper in Zurich, Avet Demourian in Yerevan, Armenia, and Christopher Torchia in Istanbul contributed to this report.

ZURICH — Turkey and Armenia signed a landmark agreement Saturday to establish diplomatic relations and open their sealed border after a century of enmity, as U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodh...
ZURICH — Turkey and Armenia signed a landmark agreement Saturday to establish diplomatic relations and open their sealed border after a century of enmity, as U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodh...
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- MarcusT I'm a Fan of MarcusT 54 fans permalink
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The British and the Russians planned to knock the Ottoman Empire out of the war quickly with simultaneous invasions of eastern Anatolia, with Russia entering from the north and Britain landings on Turkey’s south coast. So they welcomed the approaches of Armenian nationalist groups and asked them to launch uprisings behind the Turkish lines to synchronize with the invasions. The usual half-promises about independence were made, and the Armenian groups fell for it.

The British later switched their attack to the Dardanelles in an attempt to grab Istanbul, but they never warned their Armenian allies that the south coast invasion was off. The Russians did invade, but the Turks managed to stop them. The Armenian revolutionaries launched their uprisings as promised, and the Turks took a terrible vengeance on the whole community.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:45 AM on 10/27/2009
- jutsee I'm a Fan of jutsee 2 fans permalink

The world turns its back on Armenia again...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:06 PM on 10/11/2009
- Khirad I'm a Fan of Khirad 260 fans permalink
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Serj Tankian two years ago, talking about the genocide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZe1PL4hA0

Whilst this is a thorny issue, and many Armenians here have been very insightful to helping me understand this deal more, I still hope that it might be a positive, small first step to build upon in the future. Unfortunately, Armenia has suffered humiliations for far too long because of our strategically crucial regional alliance with Turkey. The victims of not only history and old empire, but that of modern geopolitics, as well. My best wishes to Armenians, and yes to Turkey, a country whose chauvinism at times is remarkably similar to America's - may there one day be honest brokers among you allowed to speak openly.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:04 AM on 10/11/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

Should Armenians have to defend themselves and their history with the ignorant people who have commented on this article . . . this is our reality . . . day and night people deny what we know to be a fact. For 100 years the world spits in our wounds. And you wonder why we can never heal?

There is not justice for the Armenian people . . .

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 AM on 10/11/2009

We can't change history, but certainly we can help shape the future. Bickering over history may temporarily satisfy the children of the wronged, but the poison of hate can only serve as the broth to a bitter stew.

I speak as an American of 100% Armenian descent. My dad was spirited out of Armenia by his parents in 1915, rolled up in a large area rug.

Perhaps we, as a civilization, are entering a period of greater tranquility and greater cooperation for the overall benefit of ALL peoples...

A man...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 AM on 10/11/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

My four grandparents were orphaned (4, 6, 12 and 15) during the Armenian Genocide. Two of my grandparents were the sole survivors among their entire family members.

The Armenian people are used to being pawns by the greater powers . . . the British did it while 300,000 Armenians were slaughtered under Abdul Hammid . . . then the Germans did it while they watched 1.5 million Armenians slaughtered 1915-1918. . . then the French did it when they sold any hope of Justice for the Armenian people away for their own greed. Then the Bolshevik Russians did it when they made their dirty deal with the Turks to sell what was left of Armenia into communist slavery for an entire generation. And the United States has done it by doing everything from involving the US State Department in stopping a single movie telling the historical story of the Armenian Genocide . . . to the US policy to support Genocide denier Turkey along with Israel and Great Britain to prevent the Armenian people an ounce of justice and a thimbles worth of dignity.

Coming from a President who made sweeping promises and gave such hope to the Armenians in the United States that over a million of them would vote for him is just sad. Obama lost the Armenian vote for 2012 . . . . . . I don't know how he tells Armenians that this somehow brings Justice to the Armenian people . . . almost ALL

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 AM on 10/11/2009

This article is making it all sound hunkydory. I really hoped the Huff Post would have a more realistic view of the farce that took place.

I honestly don't think the protocols will mean much if a clear-minded Armenian president comes into office in the future. However, everyone on this site and at the signing needn't pat themselves on the back for achieving peace.

Armenia has no options aside from conceding its issues or staying powerless, and the US helped this fact. Imagine the Nazis denied the Holocaust for close to a century and the US tried to pressure the Jewish people to sign treaties and possible make concessions to Germany. It's insane. Turkey refuses to accept the Genocide perpetrated by their ancestors, and instead of demanding recognition, the US is giving them a gold star for pretending to be friends with Armenia?

I am all for peace, but it is not possible until history is recognized and forgiveness takes place.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 PM on 10/10/2009
- ko2ko2 I'm a Fan of ko2ko2 2 fans permalink
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I'm Armenian American and I just want to state some facts since all of you think this was a good thing:
1) Vast majority of the Armenian Diaspora and Armenian people were against these protocols. Even so much as calling the president a traitor.
My proof:
http://www.anca.org/
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insightb/articles/eav092809b.shtml http://armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&AID=4117&CID=3933&IID=1255&lng=eng

2) In essence the U.S. is backing opening an investigation into something most of the world has already agreed that a gen ocide has taken place. I wonder, should Iran's request for holoca ust review be fulfilled as well?

3) Obama promised on several occasions that he would "as president" have the U.S. recognized the Armenian gen ocide, and he broke his promise. Should someone who won the Nobel peace prize and who himself believes a gen ocide took place, not have his country recognize it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcJjxOqgANM

These protocols are a back door deal that is not based on the notion of peace, but forced down the throats of the people. You tell me which people would accept "open boarders" in exchange for questioning a peoples' history. I'm sure Israel won't in regards to the holoca ust, and why would they?

Sorry reposted to clean the format...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:05 PM on 10/10/2009
- ko2ko2 I'm a Fan of ko2ko2 2 fans permalink
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I'm Armenian American and I just want to state some facts since all of you think this was a good thing: 1) Vast majority of the Armenian diaspora and armenian people were against these protocols. Even so much as calling the president a traitor. My proof: http://www.anca.org/ http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insightb/articles/eav092809b.shtml http://armenianow.com/?action=viewArticle&AID=4117&CID=3933&IID=1255&lng=eng 2) In essence the U.S. is backing opening an investigation into something most of the world has already agreed that a gen ocide has taken place. I wonder, should Iran's request for holoca ust review be fulfilled as well? 3) Obama promised on several occasions that he would "as president" have the U.S. recognized the armenian gen ocide, and he broke his promise. Should someone who won the nobel peace prize and who himself believes a gen ocide took place, not have his country recognize it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcJjxOqgANM These protocols are a back door deal that is not based on the notion of peace, but forced down the throats of the people. You tell me which people would accept "open boarders" in exchange for questioning a peoples' history. I'm sure Isreal won't in regards to the holoca ust, and why would they?

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/10/turkey-and-armenia-sign-h_n_316439.html

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:04 PM on 10/10/2009

President Obama is an intellectual and a fair man. He is aware of the fact that there are two sides to this conflict.

There are historians who dispute Armenian claims that it was a genocide.

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/professor-dr-justin-mccarthy-interview
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/Bernard-Lewis-Armenian-Genocide
http://www.meforum.org/748/revisiting-the-armenian-genocide

Whether you like or not, Aremnian archives will be opened just like the Ottoman archives have been open since 1989. Then we will find out what really happened. Wouldn't you all want that? I would.

http://www.meforum.org/2114/ottoman-archives-reshape-armenian-debate

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 PM on 10/10/2009

Here is what Obama actually said as senator:
"I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. "

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/19/barack_obama_on_the_importance.php

He has actually never said that there are two sides to this conflict. He knows what the truth is and he said it himself, "an overwhelming body of historical evidence." Since then, as president, he has not used the term Genocide, and we all know why, because the US needs Turkey in the middle east and uses this matter to control Turkey.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 PM on 10/10/2009

I really hope you have an agenda because being this ill informed is disgusting.

Clearly you're a Turk. Using Justin McCarthy as a reference is exactly what proves how little you know about the topic. Just check out his wikipedia page. "McCarthy is a member of, and has received grants from, the Institute of Turkish Studies."

Anyone can be coerced into lying with cash. There are Turkish historians like Taner Akcam; novelist Orhan Pamuk have even accepted it. You want non-armenians that have faced the truth? There are over 20 international governments, countless scholars, and other intellectuals that have recognized it. In2007, the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity wrote a letter signed by 53 Nobel Laureates re-affirming the Genocide Scholars' conclusion that the 1915 killings of Armenians constituted genocide.

The word genocide was created by Lemkin ,his chief examples were the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust. There was the intention to erase every Armenian off the face of the earth and they systematically went about doing so. Don't try to make the Holocaust comparisons a stigma in hopes of making the casual observer think it is an overreaction. The idea of slaughtering millions of Jews could have possibly not entered Hitler's mind had it not been for the supposed success of the Young Turks.

I am certain this entire reply is in vain because you were raised to deny the truth, but it is hard to sit by and watch the appalling arrogance of a genocide denier.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 PM on 10/10/2009

Personally, I don't think these protocols will have a big effect and I have hope that the next Armenian Administration will make sure to remind the world that just because the Sarkissyan's government was bribed into selling out his country, the rest of the nation will not abide.

Since you seem to be an Obama supporter, given your member name and the earlier comments, you may be aware that during his presidential race he said unequivocally that the Armenian Genocide happened. He copped out in office with the armenian term for the events but in the end, he accepts them. How do you rationalize a hero of yours categorically disagreeing with you?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 PM on 10/10/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

No . . . actually, CANDIDATE Obama said there was only one side . . . the Truth. Now he denies it like all Presidents except Ronald Reagan . . . I am tired of this.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 AM on 10/11/2009

I notice that many of you seem to think that this is a democrat vs republican issue. And you are congratulating Clinton for her "peace" work. It certainly is not.

Imagine if Israel was pressured into signing a deal with Germany that would result in putting together a historical commission to figure out if the Holocaust actually took place. What an insult! The Armenian Genocide is the second most studied genocide after the Holocaust. What has actually happened is that Armenia has signed a deal with Turkey to have such a commision set in place in return for some economic benefits of ending Turkey's already illegal closure of the border.

This is not actually a matter of goodwill on anyone's part, but a continuation of policies which undermine the interests of the people for the interests of powerful states.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:46 PM on 10/10/2009

First of all, Holocaust was a genocide. Nobody dares to dispute that.

Can you show me a historian who can provide some proof to dispute Holocaust? Of course NOT.

But I can show you historians, who are not Turkish, who can dispute Armenian claims that it was a genocide.

Here are the links:
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/professor-dr-justin-mccarthy-interview
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/Bernard-Lewis-Armenian-Genocide
http://www.meforum.org/748/revisiting-the-armenian-genocide

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:32 PM on 10/10/2009

I think you are correct in stating that no one "dares" to dispute the Holocaust. That's because it is actually illegal to publicly deny the Holocaust in many countries (nor should anyone do so, that is not the point.) Of course, you have people around the world who do question it and are publicly humiliated for it.

On the other hand, continuation of denying the Armenian Genocide serves a purpose for many countries, including the US ( in its ability to control Turkey). The Genocide is a very well studied and documented event, which includes international historians, US's Ambassador to Turkey at the time ( who wrote a book about it) and endless documents that are in the hands of Europeans, Armenians, Russians, as well as Turks, and has been recognized by more than 20 countries. Obama himself made the statement that the Genocide is not a matter of personal opinion, but a widely known fact before his presidency.

It is exactly for the reason that people lack education, including journalists, who do not do enough investigation, that there is such an outcry in this matter.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 10/10/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

This is exactly what Armenians must listen to . . . for generations . . . and I cry for my people who have to hear such insults . . . Frankly, the only western countries who deny the Armenian Genocide is Israel . . . and at Israel's insistence . . . the United States and Great Britain . . . why don't you ask Israel why they want to deny the Armenian Genocide . . . Holocaust survivors as Armenian Genocide deniers is pretty rotten.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:11 AM on 10/11/2009
- jutsee I'm a Fan of jutsee 2 fans permalink

Do some real research, online sources can be highly questionable. I suggest reading "A Problem From Hell: America and the Age of Genocide" by Samantha Powers.

Justin McCarthy? Really?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:16 PM on 10/11/2009

You are sooo Turkish :).

The only thing going for the Turkish official stance is that the UN Genocide convention of 1948 does not apply retroactively to 1915. Otherwise the definition of what acts constitute a genocide are broad enough to encompass a great many number of events. Jewish pogrom of 1936 in Eastern Thrace, Dersim massacres in 1937, the Varlik Vergisi tax law of 1942 all fall under a broad definition of genocide.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:09 PM on 10/15/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

No . . .its not a Republican/Democrat issue . . . it's a moral issue . . . a Justice issue . . . and both parties strongly side with Genocide Denier Turkey . . . the difference is, this time a Presidential candidate gave the Armenian Americans HOPE . . . false hope . . . they won't make the mistake again.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:18 AM on 10/11/2009
- Klimb I'm a Fan of Klimb 21 fans permalink

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton...Thank you ever-so-much for your hard work...Wow! What a team...when I look at Biden, too...I thank Americans for making the right choice on 4th November 2008.
TURKEY AND ARMENIA what a great gesture to give to Americans and their new Nobel Peace Prize winner...after 100 years of conflict signed an accord for diplomatic ties...thank you Mr.President, too.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:36 PM on 10/10/2009
- nowarpleez I'm a Fan of nowarpleez 28 fans permalink
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This would not have been possible if McCain/Palin had won the election.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 10/10/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

Maybe not . . . they might not have sold the Armenia down the river along with the Armenian Diaspora . . .

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:19 AM on 10/11/2009
- SimJack I'm a Fan of SimJack 59 fans permalink
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See Condi, that's what a Secretary of State is supposed to do.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 10/10/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

Ha . . . Condi Rice spit on Armenians just like Hillary Clinton did . . . actually, I expected more from her and I was more disapointed in HER . . . but then again, she does the bidding of the President.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 AM on 10/11/2009
- rcampbell I'm a Fan of rcampbell 7 fans permalink

Congratulations to Turkey and Armenia for this historic, healing event. Thank you, Secy of State Clinton for managing the process and for helping to bring this important alliance to reality.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:57 PM on 10/10/2009

Nothing was brought to reality. The accords were purely on behalf of the Armenian President. This was not a democratically decided action. Armenians in Armenia and the larger diaspora are completely against it.

This whole thing was an empty gesture that Sarkissyan is probably being bribed handsomely for.

While I am a democrat and support the administration, this whole thing was a charade and no one should be proud of it.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:22 PM on 10/10/2009
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There won't be any real healing until Turkey abolishes the law against saying that the Armenian genocide happened.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:56 PM on 10/10/2009
- DLazar1 I'm a Fan of DLazar1 8 fans permalink

It still has to be ratified by the Congress of Armenia and Turkey . . . lets see who blinks first.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:20 AM on 10/11/2009

how ironic will it be if Turkey and Armenia comes together just to refuse the ratification

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 PM on 10/11/2009
- farii I'm a Fan of farii 18 fans permalink
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yet another ''peace'' of the puzzle add to obamas portrait,with less than a year in office..still they scream what has he done to deserve the noble ''peace'' price..

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 10/10/2009
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