US weapons failed in 2008 Afghanistan firefight

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RICHARD LARDNER | 10/11/09 11:04 PM | AP

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WASHINGTON — It was chaos during the early morning assault last year on a remote U.S. outpost in Afghanistan and Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine had quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh on Oct. 3, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

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Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a potent enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

Cubbison acknowledges the high rates of fire during the two-hour battle may have led to the failures. But he says numerous problems occurred relatively early in the engagement.

He also said the enemy forces were "experienced, numerically powerful, highly skilled, adequately equipped (and) tactically accomplished."

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

___

On the Net:

U.S./NATO forces in Afghanistan: http://www.nato.int/isaf/

Army weapons: http://tinyurl.com/yk95j8z

Weapon manufacturer: http://www.colt.com/mil/M4.asp

State Department background on Afghanistan: http://tinyurl.com/5q42z

WASHINGTON — It was chaos during the early morning assault last year on a remote U.S. outpost in Afghanistan and Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine had quit firing as militant forces surround...
WASHINGTON — It was chaos during the early morning assault last year on a remote U.S. outpost in Afghanistan and Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine had quit firing as militant forces surround...
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The Marines, in an earlier battle with even worse odds, same weapons, and also OUTSIDE the base on a patrol did not seem to have any problems with their m16s and m4 carbines.

I am a happy M16/m4 user. Most of the problems now you can fix by replacing the magazines. The issued alluminum magazines are fragile and prone to damage under use. Magpul Polymer magazines would be ideal.

No, I have NEVER carried a cleaning rod taped to my handguards. It's rediculous.

The m16 series of weapons is an excellent one. It works very well, as evident by almost 50 years of use.

The soldiers in the article ran their weaopns at near cyclic rates. If you ran your car at 110MPH everyday to and from work, stopping and going, woudl you blame the car?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:39 PM on 11/21/2009

Col. Tamilio of PM Soldier Weapons posted some facts on the M4's reliability and the upgrades that have been made over the years.

You can read them at:

http://peosoldier.armylive.dodlive.mil/2009/10/21/m4-reliability/

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 10/23/2009

AK is substandart weapon? But Ak-47 is not top solution from Kalashnikov factory. There modern AK-100s assault rifle series. It's provides new features (red dot etc.), has very good accuracy, still very reliable. Ak-107 even is more accurate than M-16/M-4 in full auto because it's equiped with Balanced Automatic Recoil System.

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/11/weapons-failed-us-troops-_n_316660.html#postComment

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 PM on 10/19/2009

AK is substandart weapon? But Ak-47 is not top solution from Kalashnikov factory.
There modern AK-100s assault rifle series. It's provides new features (red dot etc.), has very good accuracy, still very reliable.
Ak-107 even is more accurate than M-16/M-4 in full auto because it's equiped with Balanced Automatic Recoil System.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:38 PM on 10/19/2009
- bluemike I'm a Fan of bluemike 5 fans permalink

AFGHAN-IRAQ FELLOWS PLEASE READ. Here is what we did in Vietnam. It may help you.

Choose the longer version of the M-16, the shorter versions had/have buffer problems and jam a lot.

We carried assembled cleaning rods taped to the handguard so we could break open the rifle and "throw" the cleaning rod down the barrel to clear jammed cartridges. It's fast and efficient.

Replace rounds in the chamber regularly to avoid first round jams. This was a big problem in the humid tropics and maybe not so much in the MIddle East.

Always carry a back-up weapon. The M-16 or its variant alone does not ensure your survival. We each carried handguns and fighting knives.

I know you clean your rifles regularly.

In case of a hard jam during an extended fight, you can add light lub oil directly into the opening in the bolt and work the extractor back and forth vigorously a few times. That could give you up to twelve additional hours of function. Then the weapon needs a thorough cleaning.

I hope some of this will be helpful. God bless you !

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 AM on 10/12/2009
- bluemike I'm a Fan of bluemike 5 fans permalink

MANY NAMES ON THE VIETNAM WALL ARE THERE BECAUSE OF JAMMED M-16s.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 AM on 10/12/2009
- duxguts I'm a Fan of duxguts 22 fans permalink
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Sadly the military are more interested in our troops sexual orientation than giving them effective weapons.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 10/12/2009
- Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon 74 fans permalink
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I'm for letting our troops marry-Make Love, not War.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 AM on 10/12/2009
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EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS

sorry for screaming and sorry if this posted any where else
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine
dust test
In the fall of 2007, the Army tested the M4 against three other carbines in "sandstorm conditions" at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland: the Heckler & Koch XM8 rifle, Fabrique Nationale de Herstal SOF Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the Heckler & Koch HK416. Ten of each type of rifle were used to fire 6,000 rounds each, for a total of 60,000 rounds per rifle type.[7] The M4 suffered far more stoppages than its competitors: 882 stoppages, 19 requiring an armorer to fix. The XM8 had the fewest stoppages, 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones, followed by the FN SCAR with 226 stoppages and the HK416 with 233.[8][9] The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages—termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear—the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem. The Army said it planned to improve the M4 with a new cold-hammer-forged barrel to give longer life and more reliable magazines to reduce the stoppages. Magazine failures caused 239 of the M4's 882 failures. Army officials said the new magazines could be combat-ready by spring if testing went well.[10]

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 PM on 10/11/2009
- Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon 74 fans permalink
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Apparently the lubricant used clogs up the moving parts with the fine dust found in Afghanistan and Iraq. Becomes more pronounced under full fire conditions.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 10/11/2009
- vinny I'm a Fan of vinny 72 fans permalink
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M4s have full auto?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 10/12/2009
- Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon 74 fans permalink
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The M4A1 does

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 10/12/2009
- checkmoot I'm a Fan of checkmoot 8 fans permalink
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Why do we keep jerking around on these weapons. I'm sure that we could buy all the AK-47 rifles we need from Russia. Probably save a hell of a lot of money in the process.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:58 PM on 10/11/2009
- duxguts I'm a Fan of duxguts 22 fans permalink
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We could buy them from the Chinese.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 AM on 10/12/2009
- Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon 74 fans permalink
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And the Taliban

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:18 AM on 10/12/2009
- thebigbike I'm a Fan of thebigbike 2 fans permalink

that this part is SO feaking OLD!!!!! makes it even scarier I was hearing this in the late 60's and early 70's from my army buddies when they got back from vietnam. that their stinking M-1's were just as bad. a little bit of lobbying by industrial firms contributing to chickan hawk congress people who ensure there is no accountablity on the part of the manufacturers... Thanks too to mr bush and mr rumsfeld

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 PM on 10/11/2009

..

My three cosins and an uncle were in VIet Nam between 1968-1972 and this is EXACTLY the thing they sadi about their M16s. They told me they started to carry captured AK47s a "back-up" weapons.

This ain't right.

The soldiers should return home, but if they are going to fight, they need to fight with equipment that can take the conditions they are asked to fight in.

200 Taliban with small arms and tacital disipline is a sigifigant and dangerous force. They aren't just running up on our soldiers to "go to heaven".

I have consulted my copy of Sun Tzu. His instructions are clear in this situation: WITHDRAW. I quote:

"He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened...if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.

Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:30 PM on 10/11/2009
- Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon 74 fans permalink
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I doubt the president read Sun Tzu at Harvard, or any where else.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:29 PM on 10/11/2009

I dunno our President is pretty well read. If the campaign is any indication, someone was reading their Sun Tzu.

"Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy. "

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 AM on 10/12/2009
- spytheweb I'm a Fan of spytheweb 24 fans permalink
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Life is cheap in America, all that's matter is the manufacturers of these weapons are paid. Who cares if they don't fire or that you are eletrocuted in the shower, as long as the check clears.

This is the muslim terrorist gold rush, no bid contracts and short changing the military. It doesn't matter who wins or loses, just keep it going as long as you can. Banks win both ways, borrow for weapons and borrow when your country is destroyed and needs to be rebuilt. Got you coming and going.

I always liked the AK47. They are cheap (low cost, but well made) they fire if they are dirty, wet, parts missing. The AK47 the most wide spread weapon in the world, why isn't it the m-16?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 PM on 10/11/2009
- Common1 I'm a Fan of Common1 2 fans permalink

AK-47s are far more superior than M-4s. They are low maintenance and harder hitting weapons. I imagine that some of the soldiers are using the AK-47s when they get them off of the Afghans.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 PM on 10/11/2009
- Halter I'm a Fan of Halter 9 fans permalink
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Whoever is making money off of these weapons needs to be prosecuted.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:01 PM on 10/11/2009
- MadMarv I'm a Fan of MadMarv 4 fans permalink

For over 40 years I've been hearing that the AK-47 is a superior weapon to the maintenance heavy M16 and now its newer offspring the M4. Why don't we just buy those - I'm sure the Russians would be happy to sell them to us now that the cold war is over, and if not, the Chinese would be happy to make a knockoff for us.

Or shock of all shocks, we could license them and make them in the US - oh - forgot - we don't do manufacturing any more.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:53 PM on 10/11/2009
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The M-16 and all of its descendants are junk. They original M-16 and its immediate successor constantly failed on me in Viet Nam. Only my access to Ak-47's and M-14's saved my life.

The idea of issuing automatic weapons for suppressive fire is a bankrupt tactic that we borrowed from the Russians. The big problem is that for the last 40 years the average US infantryman has been a TERRIBLE shot, poorly trained and rarely armed with anything that maintains accuracy over more than 200 yards. What's needed is a new standard battle rifle (NOT an assault rifle) and a complete overhaul in the way that troops are trained to shoot. If you can't qualify as expert with a main battle rifle, you have no business being in combat.

If we stick with the discredited 'spray and pray' tactic, we should at least be issuing AK-47's, the finest, ruggedest, and most dependable assault rifle ever made. Mine never ever let me down under the muddiest, wettest, driest, sandiest, godawfullest conditions.

Don't even consider the inferior AK-74 that the Russians replaced the AK-47 with, fearing that the M-16 indicated that we know something they didn't (we didn't). The AK-74, while dependable.shoots small caliber ammo very similar to our M-16's, M-4's and SAW's. They're all Mouseguns.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:12 PM on 10/11/2009
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