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Couples Testify In California Gay Marriage Trial

LISA LEFF   01/12/10 08:55 PM ET   AP

Proposition Trial

SAN FRANCISCO — A Yale professor testifying in a case challenging California's same-sex marriage ban said Tuesday that the 2008 campaign to pass Proposition 8 played on stereotypes historically used to portray "homosexuals as perverts who pray on young children, out to entice straight people into sick behavior."

George Chauncey, a historian who specializes in the subject of 20th century gay life, was the second expert witness to appear for two couples unable to marry because of the state's voter-approved gay marriage ban. Their lawsuit has led to the first federal trial to decide the constitutionality of laws limiting marriage to a man and a woman.

After viewing several television commercials produced by Proposition 8's sponsors, Chauncey said images and language suggesting the ballot initiative was needed to "protect children" were reminiscent of earlier efforts to "demonize" gays, ranging from police raids on gay bars during the 1950s to campaigns to rid public schools of gay teachers in the 1970s.

"You have a pretty strong echo of this idea that simple exposure to gay people and their relationships is somehow going to lead a whole generation of young kids to become gay," Chauncey said. "The underlying message here is something about the undesirability of homosexuals, that we don't want our children to become this way."

Chauncey's views were introduced to help persuade Chief U.S. Judge Vaughn R. Walker, who is hearing the case without a jury, that the California measure unlawfully discriminates against gays because it was based on an underlying hatred or moral disapproval and serves no legitimate public aim.

Court concluded with a lawyer for Proposition 8's backers just beginning to cross-examine Chauncey, who is scheduled to resume his testimony on Wednesday.

Earlier Tuesday, another history professor, Nancy Cott of Harvard University, presented a centuries-old history lesson on government regulation of marriage, even touching on President Bill Clinton's indiscretions to argue that the institution has evolved dramatically over time.

In her second day of testimony, Cott disputed a statement by a defense lawyer that states have a compelling interest to restrict marriage to heterosexual couples for the sake of procreation.

Cott said marriage also serves an economic purpose – one that was especially pronounced when it was assumed that men and women performed different jobs in their partnership.

But as traditional gender roles and the purposes of marriage have changed, the reasons to bar same-sex couples from marrying have gone away, she said.

"It does seem to me that the direction of change leads consistently toward the appropriateness of allowing same-sex couples to marry," she said.

Under cross-examination by a lawyer for the sponsors of California's Proposition 8, Cott conceded she couldn't predict the consequences for society of same-sex marriage.

Defense attorney David Thompson spent more than two hours reading excerpts from Cott's writings and testimony in state-level gay rights cases to portray her as an advocate who was selectively reading the historical record to support her personal views.

"In your opinion, morality has been uncoupled from marriage, correct?" Thompson asked.

Cott said she had written something to that effect in the context of adultery and premarital sex no longer being considered crimes. Thompson asked if she considered the public's willingness to excuse Clinton's infidelity while in office to be evidence of a "seismic shift" in sexual mores.

"Yes," Cott said. "The majority of the public overlooked his infidelities because, I argued, the social meaning of marriage had moved toward the idea that spouses themselves are best equipped to decide what is acceptable behavior within marriage, not something the state would judge."

The expert testimony marked a change in tone from the trial's first day, when the plaintiffs – Kristin Perry, 45, and her partner, Sandra Stier, 47, of Berkeley, and a gay couple from Burbank, Paul Katami, 37, and Jeffrey Zarrillo – gave intimate accounts of how being unable to wed affected their lives.

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SAN FRANCISCO — A Yale professor testifying in a case challenging California's same-sex marriage ban said Tuesday that the 2008 campaign to pass Proposition 8 played on stereotypes historically ...
SAN FRANCISCO — A Yale professor testifying in a case challenging California's same-sex marriage ban said Tuesday that the 2008 campaign to pass Proposition 8 played on stereotypes historically ...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
JohnBisceglia
04:04 PM on 01/14/2010
I wish the historians would have also mentioned how BOTH 11-year-olds, Carl Walker-Hoover and Jaheem Herrera, chose to kill themselves over living in a world (and country) that demonized and hated them. Last April. THAT is also our history.
11:10 AM on 01/14/2010
Witnesses providing anecdotal evidence and two expert witnesses who are clearly biased in their testimony.

Again, why am I not surprised at the weakness of the same sex marriage position.

I really hope that the plaintiffs are required to cover all of the costs for this wasteful effort of the court's time.
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lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
03:50 PM on 01/14/2010
Yup - pretty weak position.

All they have is the US Constitution, the Equal Rights Amendment, and the American Ideal of Equal Protection on their side.

What do you guys have?

Oh yeah - irrational fear and dogmatic hate.

Feel good about that do ya?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
12:26 PM on 01/13/2010
My mother for many years was extremely opposed to the fact that I am lesbian. It was therefore with some trepidation that I told her in 2006 that I was engaged to a woman. She told me she was very happy for me. When I expressed surprise at her reaction, she said, "I don't think I have too much time left in this world and when I die, I want to die knowing you will be happy." I sent her an invitation to our wedding and true her reaction to my announcement, she attended. She also told my spouse, "Call me, Mom, please." I believe in her view, if it was legal in Canada, that was just fine for her. If a 90-year dyed-in-the-wool Missouri Synod Lutheran can get it, why can't all the haters on this board? It IS about the love of two people who want to spend the rest of their lives together and who want to make that commitment legal.
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02:16 PM on 01/13/2010
Congratulations Ioan, on your engagement! I'm so happy for both of you. This is also wonderful news about your Mom.

It IS about love and wanting to spend the rest of your lives together, and making that commitment legal. It is called "marriage".♥
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Married Gay Pagan Man
02:20 PM on 01/13/2010
Thank you so very much, Tanzanite Diamonds, for your kind wishes! Actually we married in Canada in 2007 and are blissfully happy.

Sadly my mom passed away but as nearly as I can tell it was peacefully, knowing her daughter was happy and with the one she loves.
09:03 AM on 01/14/2010
This isn't the kind of relationship that should receive the social and economic support that male-female marriage has always received. The same-sex marriage debate is loaded with dangerous mythology about gender. In reality. if a boy only has women to raise him, he might turn out fine, but an extremely large percentage of them don't. A mother can’t show a son how to control his impulses because she’s not a man and doesn’t have the same urges as one. Boys in father-absent families are twice as likely as those in two-parent ones to go to jail. Boys without married fathers populate our street gangs, and these gangs are responsible for an inordinately high level of violence. We rely on the police to control gangs, but the important, and often absent, control is that exercised by fathers. A fatherless boy doesn’t have a man with whom to identify and is more likely to have trouble forming a healthy masculine identity.A father teaches a boy how to properly channel his aggressive and sexual drives. A father also commands a form of respect from a boy that a mother doesn’t––a respect more likely to keep the boy in line. So boys without fathers are more likely to become delinquent and end up incarcerated. The prison population has quintupled since the Sixties -- roughly the same rate of increase as the percentage of kids growing up without fathers.
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lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
09:25 AM on 01/13/2010
I have been adding and reading comments for two days now.

I still have not seen a coherent argument as to why I should fear, or how I would be harmed by Gay marriage.

I have read comments citing constitutional bans, do not exist.
I have read hate.
I have read dogma.

Still, nothing intelligent or persuasive.

My wife of 30 years feels exactly the same way.
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lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
12:35 PM on 01/13/2010
Still waiting....
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02:23 PM on 01/13/2010
I'm waiting with you, lesterbud. I'm a straight woman, who has been married for decades. I do not feel any reason to be threatened or harmed by Gay marriage; neither does my straight husband.

But I will admit, that until I got involved with blogging on the Internet, I never realized the level of "hate" against gay marriage, was this strong. It's ugly bigotry, And, it's actually, very sad.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
DallasDon
Yo Yo Yo, This Is My Crow... ✈. Bye, Yo.
07:52 AM on 01/13/2010
Think of every argument that you've heard in opposing gay marriage. Religion-based arguments are exceedingly easy for to overcome. These are very simple suggestions for your consideration :

Marriage isn't necessarily about love.
You can be in love and not be married.
You can be married and not be in love.

Marriage isn't about sex.
You can have sex and not be married.
You can be married and not have sex.

Marriage isn't about children.
You can have children and not be married.
You can be married and not have children.

Marriage isn't about religion.
You can be an atheist and be married.
You can be married without a preacher.

Marriage is about property, kinship and inheritance. The marriage license is an application for State and Federal benefits granted a specific class of people.

Denying US Citizens benefits granted other US Citizens on the basis of their sexual orientation is unconstitutional. Thanks FOGY.

Think critically people.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Fogy
RIP, ignorance
02:49 PM on 01/13/2010
Saved me a post. :P
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
07:20 PM on 01/13/2010
Well put Don.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LeaderofMen
Bilingual former US Marine.
07:33 AM on 01/13/2010
"Under cross-examination by a lawyer for the sponsors of California's Proposition 8, Cott conceded she couldn't predict the consequences for society of same-sex marriage."

Really? LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ALREADY ENTERED THE 21ST CENTURY FOR A CLUE.
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
07:22 PM on 01/13/2010
Or Massachusetts. Nothing bad has happened to Massachusetts society in the past 5 years (going on 6 in May), other than to some traditionalists and religious conservatives whose delicate sensibilities were offended.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jerryfromcalifornia
I can't get past mods
01:42 AM on 01/13/2010
This may be the Roe vs Wade of gay rights.................. too bad.
jerry belairca
10:19 PM on 01/12/2010
Let us hope the Supreme Court t doesn't not take it upon itself to subvert the will of the people of California and their Constitution.
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10:27 PM on 01/12/2010
Ya, so we can vote to remove some of your rights next. I Don't want someone like you to feel equal to me. I'm educated, intelligent, compassionate, not addicted to myth and superstition, and clearly deserving of my rights...whereas people who are willfully ignorant should not be allowed to vote, for starters! Oh and then there is the issue of people like you having no concept of American Civics or knowledge of how America's democracy is set up.

Consider a move to Iran or Saudi Arabia. They both have active moral police groups. You'd fit right in.
10:48 PM on 01/12/2010
just cause you got the monkey off your back, doesn't mean the circus has left town. LOL...
11:12 PM on 01/12/2010
i think you just removed the entire republican and conservative population in America from the voting population.

might want to re-think your logic and come back to reality.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lilipilicious
08:08 PM on 01/12/2010
Marriage is about family - a highly devalued term and concept these days, I know. We have many screwed up people in this society because of lack of a stable home and family life. It all starts at home. Having two moms, one of whom acts like a daddy doesnt help. Recognizing the sexual relationship of two men does not help the problem. It is an aberration, it is abnormal. There is a reason that nowhere in the animal kingdom two males raise a young as a matter of principle. Or have you ever seen two male mammals go aks for an egg donation of a female and then raise the young one together? Do you know how absurd this sounds? Homosexuality is an aberration biologically, evolutionary and even socially.

Now if you wanna make it legal for whatever other reasons (because we have many gay celebrities as opposed to polygamist celebrities and thus a big lobby or whatever), fine, but dont go arguing like it was just about the most natural thing in the world.
08:41 PM on 01/12/2010
Sorry, but reality disagrees with you. Research shows that children of same-sex couples are just as well adjusted as other children. And there is a vast amount of evidence documenting homosexuality in nature.

But whether homosexuality is "natural" or not is totally irrelevant, because this argument is really about equality under our constitution. "Natural" or not, same sex couples deserve exactly the same rights as straight couples, unless the government can prove that there is a good reason to deny them those rights. This trial will show that no such reason exists.
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bluntobject
Gandhi didn't like your attitude either!
09:51 PM on 01/12/2010
LOL....it might be an abberation to you, but it seems all to natural to me, and millions of others. How would YOU know what is natural for me, or anyone else?

Maybe if you read something beside your bible, your world view would be a little more developed.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
05:46 PM on 01/12/2010
Any of you folks against gay marriage fins a reason it 'hurts the sanctity" of hetero marriage yet?
All I've heard is shinola that really only amounts to, " We think it's icky."
Fine argument for the 2nd grade, but we ARE grown-ups here.
Or at least most of us are.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
05:50 PM on 01/12/2010
Oops lost my "D" key there.... shoulda been ' find a reason it...
07:08 PM on 01/12/2010
A 2000 Justice Department study revealed homosexual partners are 84 times more likely to experience domestic violence than married heterosexuals. A 2007 study reported gays live 24 years shorter lives. Should children be brought up in such a union?
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
07:54 PM on 01/12/2010
These domestic violence statistics are questionable, as the number of gay couples is far from certain. Heck, even the number of gay individuals in the US is unknown and probably highly undercounted, which could mean the domestic violence difference is wildly overstated. Average lifespans of gay men also suffer from this uncertainty, but have increased in recent years as HIV treatments improve. Of course most gay men are not infected with HIV, and an even lower proportion of lesbians are. With unreliable and possibly misleading statistics you cannot promote discrimination in marriage as sound policy. If anything I would predict the normalization of same sex marriage would decrease promiscuity and STD rates in gay men.

Also, children are not required for marriage, so you are asking a question that often does not apply to same sex marriage. My husband and I don’t have kids, for example.
08:15 PM on 01/12/2010
The general rate of domestic violence in the US is estimated to be about 25%.

So if gay couples are 84 times more likely to experience domestic violence, that means that 2100% of gay couples experience domestic violence.

That's right folks, 2100% of gay couples experience domestic violence.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
David Rozgonyi
Writer and traveler
04:48 PM on 01/12/2010
My repost to someone asking about why civil unions aren't good enough:

1) Civil Unions operate at the State level, not the Federal level.
2) Civil Unions are NOT recognized federally, therefore the tax benefits married people enjoy are not there.
3) States don't have to recognize civil unions issued by other states.
4) A married person can sponsor their non-US citizen spouse; not so with civil unions.
5) To get even close to the full marriage benefits in terms of durable power of attorney, hospital visitation rights, etc, costs thousands of dollars in attorney's fees if it is even possible to do. A marriage certificate costs about 100.
6) Separate but equal does not equal "equal"! And they're hardly equal in any case.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
firefly echo
sister outsider
05:21 PM on 01/12/2010
100 bucks for a marriage certificate? It's like 20 bucks around here.

Your state is ripping you off! :)
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StevenKeirstead
Photographer and Biologist who happens to be gay.
07:56 PM on 01/12/2010
My husband and I got our marriage license in Cambridge, Massachusetts because it was $25 there but $50 across the river in Boston!
05:55 PM on 01/12/2010
I continue to be amazed by well-intentioned people who still don't understand this. It's even a struggle with some of my liberal friends and family.

The NY Times did a story "The High Price of Being a Gay Couple," that explains a lot:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/your-money/03money.html
11:32 PM on 01/12/2010
omg that article is a joke. i'm not even going to repost the obvious lack of homework in that article. it would never be good enough, as some other advocate pointed out. because i didn't content every sentence in the article, that made my whole objection void. there are great logicians even in the gay-marriage camp apparently!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
firefly echo
sister outsider
04:41 PM on 01/12/2010
Also, for you broken home survivors, etc, I also was a survivor of a home that was abusive in every application of the word, and for the record, it was a heterosexual-parent, upper class, white one that did not end in divorce. I understand how much it hurts, and stays with you.

On the other hand, just think about what it might be like to be raised by a couple who spent exorbitant sums of money and perhaps years in the application process for adoption just dying for the chance to love you and care for you. Would you have been disappointed when they turned out to be gay? Would that really ruin the experience?

I would have jumped at the chance to have parents that were so eager and grateful. Mine were not so impressed by the miracle of life.

I have witnessed the outcome of gay families that have adopted a straight child, and of gay families with one biological parent to a straight child, and also straight parents who espoused this brand of so called family values who had gay children. Do I even have to tell you which children grew up to be troubled and maladjusted? Which ones grew up hating themselves and turning to drugs? If I must specify, it wasn't the kids with the gay parents.
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Wolf Larsen
The Country You Want Back No Longer Exists
04:37 PM on 01/12/2010
Please tell me what a traditional family is? Husband and wife with 2 kids....a dog and a chicken in every pot?
Is a traditional Jewish family the same as a traditional Christian family?

Is a traditional urban family the same a traditional rural family?

Is that what we are striving for....uniformity. I value diversity and multiculturalism. New ideas and directions are part of the process of evolution. That's natural....just like homosexuality.

Oh and for those that say homosexuality is a crime against nature...fail to understand that in nature the practice is quite common and not looked down upon. That's because animals haven't yet learned how to hate something that naturally occurs and has been occurring since life began....

Humans needed religion to find that stone to cast at the glass house....
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
QuietTom
02:10 PM on 01/13/2010
It's all so basic and simple as you point it out. It takes a lot of effort to twist what you say. Consider yourself fanned.
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06:23 PM on 01/13/2010
You are also fanned!!
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Wolf Larsen
The Country You Want Back No Longer Exists
04:17 PM on 01/12/2010
Religion has no place in the laws of a secular nation. What religion do you base those laws on? That's why secularism should always be the basis of the legislative and judicial process. Individual freedoms should represent all the people and not just the majority. Representation of the minority was one of the key factors the Founding Fathers were concerned with.

Sanctity of marriage. Give me a break....if your marriage is threatened by the inclusion of gay marriage you are beyond counseling and need a divorce. There is simply no compelling argument for the denial of gay marriage based on the laws of this nation.

The absurd comparisons and ludicrous scenarios the opponents cite speaks loudly to the absence of reasoned thought and an intelligent analysis. Hatred and prejudice require no factual support....in fact those traits usually require the absence of a rational mind......
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04:10 PM on 01/12/2010
TheKurgan9 is a goner? ***crickets***

Nature's little crickets sound so sweet.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
04:19 PM on 01/12/2010
YAY!
He really burns my toast for some reason.
Oh wait... I remember now.
I can't stand id!ots...
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
SCVADem
My micro-bio is empty.
04:36 PM on 01/12/2010
Shhhh.... it moved to another Prop 8 thread....