Sarkozy: Full Veil Not Welcome In France

The Guardian:

Nicolas Sarkozy last night threw his weight behind moves to ban the full Islamic veil in France, calling for an "unambiguous" parliamentary resolution against an item of clothing he said was "not welcome" in a country which valued sexual equality.

Read the whole story: The Guardian

Comments

[muscleboundH]

06:18 PM on 01/16/2010

I wonder how many of you people who support the burqa etc would be comfortable with me wearing a full black ninja style spandex body suit from head to toe in public at all times. Completely covered. I'll want full rights to walk through security at the airport etc and I will want to be able to wear it on my driver's license photo and all other photos. Just me a completely black spandex wrapped body.

Oh sure you can't see my face and you'll never know if it is truly me taking tests, going through security, buying liquor...and you will have to assume I am a male if I am in a public male bathroom.

If you don't like what my special seudo-religious requirements are (nowhere in the Koran does it talk about the burqa or hajib. AND Khadija never wore one!) , you are just trying to oppress me.

[infidel2]

06:11 AM on 01/18/2010

You're right, they'd be the first to complain if they found some burqa-clad "pervert looky loo" in the women's bathroom.

And no, it isn't a requirement of islam, but if it isn't already a requirement of sharia, I'm sure it soon will be. It is cultural & has no basis as a "right".

Ahhh, but anything that doesn't appease muslims, insults them. And anything that insults muslims is islamohobia.....and just about everything about Western culture insults islam. There's the rub.

[infidel2]

05:16 AM on 01/16/2010

I read somewhere that some young non-muslim women in France were wearing the burqa when they went out at night so that they could avoid verbal & physical abuse & rape. It has to be awfully nasty out there for young gals to volunteer to wear full body coverings. And that's just the beginning......I also read that they were having problems with burqa-wearing hospital workers in Europe, seems they wouldn't "show" their arm or wrists so were refusing to scrub up properly. In a hospital, that's a whole other can of worms.

[RedDogBear]

01:39 PM on 01/16/2010

And where exactly did you read all this? World Net Daily? If you can't provide a source other than "read it somewhere" its not very credible.

[infidel2]

05:28 AM on 01/18/2010

No need for sarcasm http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/no-sane-free-person-would-choose-to-wear-a-burka/

[riff4u]

02:28 PM on 01/16/2010

You must have read this on some Faux News outlet.

[infidel2]

05:30 AM on 01/18/2010

I know it's hard to believe anyone might be as smart as you consider yourself, but try to have an open mind. They are sorely missing on this board. Burqa robber in Canada http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/10/09/tarek-fatah-burn-your-burka.aspx and see above

Of course nothing I offer that doesn't bolster YOUR point will be good enough, will it?

[infidel2]

03:32 AM on 01/16/2010

When i see the burqa or niqab, besides being obviously criminal-friendly, it screams oppression, oppression of women, not men,never men, only women. There is no place for it in (a democratic )public.

I wish more criminals would use it, then there'd be no question about an outright ban in public...."The Burqa Bunch targets local Jewellery store"......"The Niqab Nobodies strike again!".....

[riff4u]

02:31 PM on 01/16/2010

Wrong........criminally friendly is huge baggy pants where you can hide a shotgun, a hoodie and dark sunglasses to hide your face and gloves so as not to leave finger prints. The usual garb of an American gang member. How many Burqa clad robberies have there been in France, by the way.

[infidel2]

04:57 AM on 01/18/2010

Not enough, YET.

[Oleg1]

02:31 AM on 01/16/2010

in the town near you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhZ6DPDd-vg

[Schmaltzy the Golem]

03:02 AM on 01/16/2010

Now play us..from your collection..Triumph des Willens

[Oleg1]

11:50 PM on 01/16/2010

EXACTLY... glad you noticed it... both Islamofascism and the German version is IDENTICAL in spirit and means ....

[hemara]

02:49 PM on 01/17/2010

Still banging on about the muslims I see.

[riff4u]

01:59 PM on 01/18/2010

That is the only reason he posts.........under several names.

[Schmaltzy the Golem]

01:42 AM on 01/16/2010

I don't see how promoting Garment Fascism promotes sexual equality.

[MarcusT]

02:00 AM on 01/16/2010

The issue is introduced to support Sarkosy's political base. It is only inadvertently related to religion, French standards or anything else. It's the old tried and true immigrant, our jobs, our cloture, our values play. We do the same thing here. Retail democracy at it's best.

[Oleg1]

02:14 AM on 01/16/2010

Not all immigrants, just a particular M-lim sect which requires its brandished adherents to wear bizarre masks in public.

[Schmaltzy the Golem]

02:55 AM on 01/16/2010

Is Sarkozy trying to out Le Pen Le Pen?

[sysmgr1345]

06:53 PM on 01/15/2010

The tradition and openness of French culture is much more powerful and enduring than this, so to me it just isn't worth it to police this. It is a bit disrespectful when you consider the French culture, but I choose to not let it bother me and I can't wait until my next trip to Paris.

[MarcusT]

01:32 AM on 01/16/2010

I hope your not disappointed to see that it's virtually impossible to find anyone wearing a Burqa on the streets of Paris.

[Oleg1]

04:24 PM on 01/15/2010

“France its secular traditions seriously.
They choose to bravely confront religious superstition and oppression.
French led the world by confronting Christian fundamentalism in their country.
Now French are leading again, by providing leadership in confronting Slafist Islamic fundamentalism.

[MarcusT]

03:51 PM on 01/15/2010

Article 1 of the French constitution: “France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs.”

[Oleg1]

04:04 PM on 01/15/2010

"It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law'

That's right Every,,...EVERY...citizen (without distinction) will be prohibited from wearing face-covering clothing.

As this clothing worn by members of some religious sects are contrary to the spirit of the "secular" French republic.
VOILA..
next.....

[riff4u]

03:31 PM on 01/15/2010

The more you mess with the burqa the more some women will wear it simply to show what a stupid law it is. If you leave it alone it will die a natural death. Most young French-Muslim women aren't interested in wearing it. However those who consider themselves observant may decide to wear a burqa simply to be rebelious. What happens then...........the burqa Gestapo arrests you.

[Oleg1]

03:54 PM on 01/15/2010

"However those who consider themselves observant may decide to wear a burqa simply to be rebelious."

How about you riff4raff. Do YOU dress modestly according to to the word of your prophet. Or you reserve this ehh, privilege only to your women.

[riff4u]

10:08 PM on 01/15/2010

I don't like baggy pants falling off the waist and I don't like backwards baseball caps. But if they outlawed them I'd be sure to dress that way every time I go out.

[ArtsyJane]

02:38 PM on 01/15/2010

I'll ask the question again - everyone seems to be ignoring it - if I were a Muslim American or a Mormon, why would I be denied the practice of my religious beliefs and have several wives, as it is intended in my obedience? Why is my religious freedom restricted?

[JNarragansett]

03:05 PM on 01/15/2010

You would be banned from having the government recognize your marriage in the civil sense so you would not get the tax benefits that come with marriage, but you wouldn't be prevented from having as many sexual partners or make life commitments to as many significant others as you would like. I'll step out on a limb and say that adultery laws are not enforced. There is a distinction that can be made between the government not giving added benefits (tax breaks for marriage) and the government prohibiting the underlying behavior (banning the burqa or banning multiple sexual partners).

[ArtsyJane]

03:24 PM on 01/15/2010

Not exactly true, as you know too well that in Utah, they prosecute men who de facto live with multiple "wives", for example in sects.

The point is, the marriage is not possible. I wanted to be legally married with 4 women I couldn't? It's not about tax breaks, it's about legal recognition of marriage by my Church, State and by society in general. Recognition of my beliefs. Tolerence.

Yes, I can have several partners in the intimacy of my home. But they aren't recognized as my wives by society. Same as with burqas - what you do in the intimacy of your home is your business, it doesn't mean it should be recognized by society.

[RedDogBear]

04:01 PM on 01/15/2010

Because freedom of religion, like all freedoms, is not absolute. We don't allow people to abuse their children even if their religion says they can. In this case society has decided that marriage is between two people (or one man and one woman depending who you ask).

[SirenForSanity]

08:20 PM on 01/15/2010

I am answering exchange from second page here
I understand your position but name any other symbol that is gender specific and basically obliterates a person's identity. It is a treacherous slope to climb, trying to address an issue without trampling around on freedoms. I, personally, believe that any country accepting immigrants from a country with known gender inequality should require somewhat extensive classes, to make sure that they understand completely what is available to them and the difference between religion and government.

Consider this: if a klan member were to wear a robe and hood to conduct everyday business or even to work would you feel the same way about banning a particular length of cloth?

[ScreenName05]

02:22 PM on 01/15/2010

I agree with some of the folks here that this is religious intolerance masquerading as equal rights. France has its own set of laws and freedom of speech is significantly more limited than in the U.S. But in general most modern countries provide a basic sometimes limited freedom of speech. If France passes a law, then that law will likely curtail freedom of speech and may violate people's freedom of religion rights. In the U.S. the law would be un-constitutional on its face. This has already been fought out multiple times in the Supreme Court. It is unlikely to pass constitutional muster in France.

The issue is not what people should wear. That is the fallacy in what most posters are stating. The issue is what role government should play - can and should government dictate what people wear. In the U.S. the answer is no, except in very limited situations.

People can and do have the right to any opinion they want. Governments however, can cause great harm or great good with their actions and must be careful not to destroy one right in order to create another.

If France passes a discriminatory law like this it will say far more about their inability to see through their own racial and religious biases then it does about a woman's rights. You can't dictate culture, religion or social norms. It usually leads to failure and often to violence.

[RedDogBear]

04:02 PM on 01/15/2010

right on

[Dunbar]

09:54 AM on 02/03/2010

And I say this is not about clothes. This is about social inequality and the allowance of men to treat women barbarically. No democratic society should allow this.

IMO, no God would allow this. This religious practice is nothing short of disgusting.

[Oleg1]

01:55 PM on 01/15/2010

Meanwhile in Egypt'
"According to the Administrative Court ruling, university administrators have the right to stop face-veiled students from writing their exams."

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/01/04/96278.html”

[zenwhenicanbe2]

01:29 PM on 01/15/2010

I think that the full veil should be banned in public. If someone can politely and succinctly tell me why my opinion is misguided I would welcome the debate.

[Galiciacelta]

01:35 PM on 01/15/2010

They will tell you to be 'tolerant",while denying mu-slim women any tolerance of choice.HYPOCRISY.

[zenwhenicanbe2]

01:38 PM on 01/15/2010

It would appear that we agree

[Oleg1]

01:48 PM on 01/15/2010

Full face shrouds shrouds should be banned in Europe. Period.
Those whose religious duties prevent them from exposing their fingers or nose to the public should consider entering rehab.

[riff4u]

03:35 PM on 01/15/2010

Rehab also for those who make it their business to restrict the choices of others that in no way affect the lives of the restricter.

[Galiciacelta]

12:58 PM on 01/15/2010

Islam is a intrinsically fascist/totalitarian ideology that seeks to control the individual politically,culturally,socially and economically.NO TO THE BURKA!

[ArtsyJane]

01:34 PM on 01/15/2010

Most religions are like that, some just push it to the extreme.

[Galiciacelta]

01:39 PM on 01/15/2010

Europe is full of ex-Catholics and Protestants and no one's getting stoned!

[bismillah001]

08:15 AM on 01/16/2010

THEY TOOK YER JOB!

[omobob]

12:42 PM on 01/15/2010

Sarkosy doesnt have to pass a law now that he has given tacit permission to discriminate against Islamic women. Islamic women in France who are following their religious practices are now targets of discrimination, scorn and hate. Sarkosy is patently irresponsible, however if Islamic women are attacked, he is criminally responsible for sponsoring hate and discrimination.

[Oleg1]

01:56 PM on 01/15/2010

"Sarkosy is patently irresponsible... however... he is criminally responsible."
funny stuff.

[ArtsyJane]

02:09 PM on 01/15/2010

Not true. 90% of Muslims in France are moderate to very moderate and non-observing, 3rd or 4th generation and do not wear veils or burqas. Not even their great-grand-mothers wore veils. The ones who do are a small minority and they are virtually as discriminated against by other Muslims as they are by non Muslims. Most Muslims in France (and Turks in Germany, etc.) do not want to see the radicals flocking there and pulling them behind culturally, and certainly do not want to be mistaken with them. Like I said, the veil-wearing Muslims are a recent development, with newcomers or newcomer inciters.