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Starbucks Gun Policy: Refusal To Ban Firearms Pleases Open Carry Advocates, Troubles Gun Control Advocates

GREG BLUESTEIN   02/28/10 03:28 PM ET   AP

Starbucks Gun Policy Open Carry
Starbucks doesn't ban guns in "open carry" states, even in cases where they're allowed to.

Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one customer, but not a peep from the baristas.

Welch's foray into the coffeehouse was part of an effort by some gun owners to exercise and advertise their rights in states that allow people to openly carry firearms.

Even in some "open carry" states, businesses are allowed to ban guns in their stores. And some have, creating political confrontations with gun owners. But Starbucks, the largest chain targeted, has refused to take the bait, saying in a statement this month that it follows state and local laws and has its own safety measures in its stores.

"Starbucks is a special target because it's from the hippie West Coast, and a lot of dedicated consumers who pay $4 for coffee have expectations that Starbucks would ban guns. And here they aren't," said John Bruce, a political science professor at the University of Mississippi who is an expert in gun policy.

Welch, a 71-year-old retired property manager who lives in Richmond, Va., doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't bear arms while he gets caffeinated.

"I don't know of anybody who would provide me with defense other than myself, so I routinely as a way of life carry a weapon – and that extends to my coffee shops," he said.

The fight for retailers heated up in early January when gun enthusiasts in northern California began walking into Starbucks and other businesses to test state laws that allow gun owners to carry weapons openly in public places. As it spread to other states, gun control groups quickly complained about the parade of firearms in local stores.

Some were spontaneous, with just one or two gun owners walking into a store. Others were organized parades of dozens of gun owners walking into restaurants with their firearms proudly at their sides.

In one case, about 100 activists bearing arms had planned to go to a California Pizza Kitchen in Walnut Creek, Calif., but after it became clear they weren't welcome they went to another restaurant. That chain and Peet's Coffee & Tea are among the businesses that have banned customers with guns.

Just as shops can deny service to barefoot customers, restaurants and stores in some states can declare their premises gun-free zones.

The advocacy group OpenCarry.org, a leading group encouraging the demonstrations, applauded Starbucks in a statement for "deciding not to discriminate against lawful gun carriers."

"Starbucks is seen as a responsible corporation and they're seen as a very progressive corporation, and this policy is very much in keeping with that," said John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org. "If you're going to support individual rights, you have to support them all. I applaud them, and I've gone out of my way personally to let every manager of every Starbucks I pass know that."

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has responded by circulating a petition that soon attracted 26,000 signatures demanding that Starbucks "offer espresso shots, not gunshots" and declare its coffeehouses "gun-free zones."

Gun control advocates hope the coffeehouse firearms displays end up aggravating more people than they inspire.

"If you want to dress up and go out and make a little political theater by frightening children in the local Starbucks, if that's what you want to spend your energy on, go right ahead," said Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady campaign. "But going out and wearing a gun on your belt to show the world you're allowed to is a little juvenile."

The coffeehouse debate has been particularly poignant for gun-control advocates in Washington state, where four uniformed police officers were shot and killed while working on their laptops at a suburban coffeehouse. The shooter later died in a gun battle with police.

Ralph Fascitelli of Washington Ceasefire, an advocacy group that seeks to reduce gun violence, said allowing guns in coffeehouses robs residents of "societal sanctuaries."

"People go to Starbucks for an escape, just so they can get peace," Fascitelli said. "But people walk in with open-carry guns and it destroys the tranquility."

Gun control advocates have been on the defensive. Their opponents have trumpeted fears that gun rights would erode under a Democrat-led White House and Congress, but President Barack Obama and his top allies have largely been silent on issues such as reviving an assault weapons ban or strengthening background checks at gun shows.

Gun rights groups are looking to build on a 2008 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that struck down Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban, and cheered legislation that took effect Monday allowing licensed gun owners to bring firearms into national parks. Obama signed that legislation as part of a broader bill.

Legislators in Montana and Tennessee, meanwhile, have passed measures seeking to exempt guns made and kept in-state from national gun control laws. And state lawmakers elsewhere are considering legislation that would give residents more leeway to carry concealed weapons without permits.

Observers say the gun rights movement is using the Starbucks campaign to add momentum and energize its supporters.

"They're trying to change the culture with this broader notion of gun rights," said Clyde Wilcox, a Georgetown University government professor who has written a book on the politics of gun control. "I think they are pressing the notion that they've got a rout going, so why not just get what they can while they're ahead?"

___

On the Net:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

http://www.opencarry.org/

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Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one c...
Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one c...
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03:35 PM on 03/29/2010
Why not have an African American or a Hispanic try that at the same Starbucks? Why doesn't a guy dressed differently try that?

I am guess you don't need a permit in Virginia. They are trying to pass this in Oklahoma. How do they know this guy isn't there to rob the place or to take care of his cheating wife who is a barista?

First there is no way I would work for an establishment that allowed guns, period, end of story.

I was particularly interested in the guys comment about needing protection in a Starbucks. If I were that paranoid and cowardly that I couldn't eat a donut without a gun, then I would stay home.

Ted Bundy, because he would wear a nice suit, was able to walk into stores and carry TVs out without anyone questioning him. This law is tailor made for people like Ted.

I know people will say we need this idiot to protect us from people like Ted. When the police get there during the shoot out how will they know who the perp is.
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12:07 PM on 04/01/2010
It doesn't mater what race you are: if you're law-abiding, you should be allowed to own/carry. (What - you suggest we should exercise racism in basic human rights observances? You think that people of other races shouldn't be allowed?

If somebody is out to rob/murder, they probably won't be a legal owner, they wouldn't have it legally, they're out to break lots more serious laws than carrying concealed in someplace that prohibits it.

If you're so cowardly that you couldn't eat your donut just because somebody was legally carrying while eating theirs, then you should stay at home, and get help.

If there were a shootout, the legal carriers would know what to do when police show up. They wouldn't be the ones acting illegally or recklessly (If you know of places that don't have training in these matters, then maybe you should act for legislation to improve their training requirements?)

Look up the facts about concealed carry. Millions of permitted people, very few revocations, very few of those for any serious crime, very few of those for any crime involving a gun. They're more law-abiding than any other segment of the population, regardless of the misinformation sent out by the BC or VPC.
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08:25 AM on 03/26/2010
As a supporter of the second amendment, I have to thread through the BS and say that I don't see a problem or violations with unloaded weapons carried openly! I do think it is in very poor taste to flaunt open carry for no other purpose than to stroke your ego, make political statements, or intimidate public patrons! Last time I checked we are not in imminent danger of a parachute drop or invasion etc. The only possible terrorist cells that might be around are more than likely from the right fringe etc. not from a liberal state coffee shop! This is not illegal, its just a cheap attempt to politicize intimidation and will only wind up mobilizing more resistance from the even more radical Brady groups! The NRA should stick to its guns but stay out of politics!
06:13 PM on 03/10/2010
All this because California doesn't have Florida style concealed weapons permits...
Some odd facts about Washington state: Florida style CCW since 1961, 26 years before Florida. Gay marriage OK. Medipot OK. No income tax. Automatic weapons (machine guns) NOT OK (banned by constitutional amendment). Seattle general strike 1919, Battle of Seattle 80 years later, can't we all just be Canadians now?
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denisicle
03:13 PM on 03/08/2010
The remedy is to boycott stores/businesses that allow people to carry their guns inside. Especially where there might be children. Why don't people go get some coffee somewhere else, and sit outside of a Starbucks drinking their other-store coffee, with a little sign that says to BOYCOTT Starbucks and why...

We could actually do that with a lot of other businesses too, and not just for the gun-carry issue. I'm thinking if I was out of work and not looking, I'd take some time to be proactive and screw up a corporation or business who isn't doing right by their customers. We need to take our country back from the corporations, who are really running the show...
02:33 PM on 03/12/2010
"The remedy is to boycott stores/businesses that allow people to carry their guns inside. "

LOL!

Ya better get busy then. Any business that does not have a sign explicitly prohibiting firearms at EVERY entrance allows guns inside.

Take a look around and see which business you can no longer shop at.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
denisicle
01:35 PM on 03/08/2010
So I guess if someone in Starbucks who has a gun shoots me, or someone takes the gun-toter's piece and shoots me, then I guess I can sue Starbucks for allowing deadly weapons in the coffee shop. I think most of these idiots who want to wear unloaded guns strapped to their thighs are really trying to compensate for something that is smaller than normal. That's how I am going to choose to view it. So go ahead, wear your unloaded guns, dudes!
04:38 PM on 03/12/2010
“So I guess if someone in Starbucks who has a gun shoots me, or someone takes the gun-toter's piece and shoots me, then I guess I can sue Starbucks for allowing deadly weapons in the coffee shop.”

More like, if I have a carry permit, I go disarmed to a coffee with a “No Guns Allowed” sign, and someone shoots or robs me, than I can sue the coffee shop for not protecting me and making insuring that I was unable to protect myself.

“I think most of these idiots who want to wear unloaded guns strapped to their thighs are really trying to compensate for something that is smaller than normal.”

Of course, insults are the only thing you gun ban zealots have.
10:40 AM on 03/05/2010
If you have a problem with Starbucks allowing constitutional self-defense, then feel free to support sharia Caribou Coffee.
05:44 PM on 03/03/2010
I read this ..and yet just another story that made me shake my head .

We as a society and a western democracy wish to test all of our rights openly to see if they are really true ..and as a basic principle to challenge or be challenged for maybe a prelude to going to SCOTUS.

But does that mean we don't use common sense ?

We have the right to free speech ...and we test that daily (here and elsewhere) ...
We have the right to privacy ...we don't have glass windows say ..at a doctor's clinic
We have the right to vote ...for any candidate no matter how far out there
we have the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness ...some say this costs too much so you are on your own ...

BUT the right to bear ar.ms ...does not mean you carry a bazooka into a grocery store ,?

OR a loaded weapon into a public place where a child has the ability to be at eye level with what they consider to be a toy ..and take a chance that they might want to ''play'' with it,

Use your common sense , and stop taking chances with the safety of others for political gain.

(.) period.!
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AndyWright68
A truly free society is inevitable!
09:46 PM on 03/03/2010
"a loaded weapon into a public place where a child has the ability to be at eye level with what they consider to be a toy ..and take a chance that they might want to ''play'' with it,"

Those rotten cops. What is wrong with them? You're right. The police need to stop tempting our children like this!
11:34 PM on 03/12/2010
"BUT the right to bear ar.ms ...does not mean you carry a bazooka into a grocery store ,?"

You're right. A bazooka doesn't fall under the definition of "arms" in the Second Amendment. It would have been described as "ordnance" in those days.

"OR a loaded weapon into a public place where a child has the ability to be at eye level with what they consider to be a toy ..and take a chance that they might want to 'play' with it,"

If your child thinks it's all right to grab other people's property to "'play' with it," then you have bigger problems than someone legally carrying a handgun. BTW, "open carry" in California is only legal with an unloaded handgun carried in a holster.

The odds are, though that you've been standing next to someone in a Starbucks, grocery store, or discount store who was legally armed but carrying concealed. Were you scared then?

ECS
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GritsJr
09:41 AM on 03/03/2010
Welcome to the Gun Nut Vision of America. Let's all work to get Starbucks to change their policy ASAP!
10:35 AM on 03/03/2010
You clearly arent aware that the response to Starbucks position has been something like 5 to 1 in FAVOR. 100 MILLION legal gun owners in the US , the Anti Gunners are BADLY outnumbered
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08:06 AM on 03/04/2010
so, let me ask you - do you have a sign in your front yard advertising that your house is a gun-free zone? do you really want the criminals to know you are not going to shoot if they break into your house in the middle of the night?

your right to protect yourself does not stop when you walk out your front door.
01:20 AM on 03/03/2010
sure please have an "open carry gun" law at the senate /house meetings in DC and in the california and los angles city council meetings-
hmmm
03:23 AM on 03/03/2010
Well seeing as those are "no gun" zones that would be rather difficult.

These meetings are only being held where it is lawful to do so.
01:40 AM on 03/13/2010
So far, there is no provision for concealed or open carry in DC, however that may change before much longer.

As for carrying at the US House of Representatives or Senate, let alone the California legislature or LA city council meetings, governments can restrict carrying in government buildings. So what you're suggesting would be a violation of the law.

Do you often advocate breaking the law?

ECS
01:16 AM on 03/03/2010
no more starbucks for me-
ever
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Patriot86
Compassion is the basis of all morality.
05:44 AM on 03/03/2010
Me too.
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08:06 AM on 03/04/2010
i'm stopping there today!
11:40 PM on 03/02/2010
Wow, Cant wait to track the Starbuck stock tomorrow. Talk about corporate suicide. Dunkin donuts is look'n good for the morning brew!
01:17 AM on 03/03/2010
You do realize that the response to Starbucks position has been something along the lines of 5 to 1 in SUPPORT right ?? 100 MILLION Gun owners people. The Anti's are BADLY outnumbered and shrinking in relevance , membership and influence day by day. Paul Helmke all but admitted defeat outside the Supreme Court today regarding the hearing over Incoporation of the 2A against the States via the 14th Ammendment in MacDonald V Chicago today.
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Patriot86
Compassion is the basis of all morality.
05:45 AM on 03/03/2010
They forgot who their market is...and will pay a price just watch.
03:24 AM on 03/03/2010
Funny, I woke up this morning and found Starbucks still exists and is still one of the largest coffee house chains in the nation. What's taking the destruction so long?
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sueinmn
09:48 PM on 03/02/2010
Do these people fear everyday living for this NEED TO CARRY? Or are they simply making a statement of the Constitution.

Fearing is your biggest weakness. What you fear should be reason enough for others to fear your reaction of your own fears. You may be the most dangerous confused person and carrying a deadly weapon is not in the best interest of society.

By the way, I have a conceal and carry license and feel NO NEED TO CARRY.
11:30 PM on 03/02/2010
Your ownership of a carry permit has no bearing on what other peoples reasons are for carrying.

Do you wear a seatbelt because you FEAR getting in a car wreck ? Or is it being prudent and prepared for what MIGHT happen ?

Do you have a Fire Extinuisher in your home because you FEAR a fire ? Or is it just prudent and prepared for what MIGHT happen ?
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Patriot86
Compassion is the basis of all morality.
05:46 AM on 03/03/2010
They watch too much TV and are pretty much j erks...adults know about being appropriate...attention who res who never grew up.
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09:28 PM on 03/02/2010
Apparently HP decided they didn't want to hear anymore of your dri.bble, Belyeu..

I repeat,.. not in my establishment..and um.. i managed an American education' a few years ago... i know what an AK is..
01:47 AM on 03/13/2010
The word you're groping for is "drivel." You dribble a basketball. You dribble water out of a glass.

ECS
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Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
03:55 PM on 03/02/2010
This probably sounds silly but as a Brit the idea that average people are allowed to walk around town with a gun would make me extremely uncomfortable.
04:29 PM on 03/02/2010
With all due respect, yes it is silly. I know several Brit ex pats that have moved to the States and revel in their new freedom to not be dependent on the police to protect them from crime
05:44 PM on 03/02/2010
I don't think it's silly at all. Considering the rate of gun violence in the US and the rate of gun violence in the UK, it's hard to escape the conclusion that Brits are doing something right.
11:32 PM on 03/02/2010
You really should keep more up to date on the British Media. The BBC and others have been reporting a large percentage rise in violent crime and in "gun crime" since they instituted a full gun ban
11:40 PM on 03/02/2010
Alan Green, assistant chief constable of Greater Manchester Police stated that gun crime has spread across Britain “Like a cancer.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1430690/Gun-crimes-spreading-like-cancer.html

In the United States, crime in shall issue right to carry states is falling more rapidly than the national average. The U.S. is doing something right and the U.K. something wrong.