Muslim Woman Expelled From School In Veil Dispute

pewforum.org:

A Muslim woman has filed a human rights complaint after she was expelled from a Canadian college for refusing to remove her face veil.

Read the whole story: pewforum.org

Comments

[politicky]

03:24 PM on 03/16/2010

The photo you use does not illustrate the story!

"The school, CGEP St. Laurent, expelled her last November after she refused to remove her niqab, a veil that covers the face with only a slit for the eyes."

[Progressneeded]

02:15 PM on 03/16/2010

Funny how women are given a right to practically go naked on tv and act like sexually charged idiots with no moral compass, but God forbid they should choose to cover up.

[Trance2010]

03:43 PM on 03/16/2010

I agree, but... it's a bit annoying when people dress according to the frivolous mandates of a ficticious sky tyrant.

[Trance2010]

12:28 PM on 03/16/2010

If the woman insists on looking like the Emperor on Star Wars, then so be it...

[myaa]

02:10 PM on 03/16/2010

It should be upto the woman herself and not for others to decide either way.

[adevarul]

08:14 PM on 03/16/2010

What about the fact that wearing the niqab is offensive in Canada ? Thus it can be said that this niqab wearer was acting in a racist manner against Canadians since she does not respect the traditions of Canadians who are of another race.

[GinnyW]

05:27 AM on 03/16/2010

Face covering is a cultural and/or tribal thing, NOT one of religious requirement. The vast majority of Moslem women, who do not live in desert areas where face covering was prevalent to protect from sandstorms, by males and females, DO NOT cover the face in a manner to draw attention to themselves in a provocative manner. When I taught intensive English to Viet Nahmese boat people, I had difficulty helping with enunciation and pronunciation because of a CULTURAL belief that it was rude and disrespectful to look at the face of a teacher; I had to resort to the use of mirrors, so they could see correct placement of the teeth and lips without violating their cultural hang-up.

[myaa]

01:57 PM on 03/16/2010

It is NOT a cultural or tribal thing - but it is not mandated by the religion either. It is just a way to show more piety. Not sure what your level of knowledge of the religious texts of Islam is, but the verse about 'not drawing attention to yourself' was about modesty and not exposing your face!
A person (muslim) can either adopt certain non-compulsory guidelines or can choose not to accept them. But they cannot make their own interpretations and use that to enforce their ideas.

[GinnyW]

03:45 AM on 03/17/2010

My daughter is Sunni and wears the burka in Pakistan, but no face covering in the US; of her 3 daughters, the one in pre-med and the youngest do not veil their faces, but the middle one (majoring in political science chooses to do so, even though (OR BECAUSE) it is so very provocative and the opposite of modest, since it draws a great deal of attention to herself and is disrespectful of her husband's wish that she not do so. Their friends at the university demonstrate on campus, and as a former hippie and liberal, secular Jew, I am conflicted about her putting herself in danger by doing so. I did sit-ins, Freedom Rides, and manned the phones at a woman's reproductive rights clinic in the 60's through the 80's, and I really understand now how this upset my parents and father-in-law who feared for my safety. My daughter learned Arabic at the age of 13 and is a devout Moslem; she says that "face covering" is not specifically stated in the Qu'ran.

[BillyTugbutter]

09:47 PM on 03/15/2010

Are Muslim women allowed to shave their pubic hair?

[LegalCodex]

10:38 PM on 03/15/2010

There's nothing that prohibits it.

[myaa]

02:01 PM on 03/16/2010

Sahih Bukhari (007.072.778):
Narrated Ibn 'Umar

Allah's Apostle said, "To shave the pubic hair. to clip the nails andto cut the moustaches short, are characteristics of the Fitra."

[Trance2010]

12:24 PM on 03/16/2010

Yes, but only with a scimitar.

[Balzac]

06:29 PM on 03/15/2010

She should not hide her beauty.

[si8bqm]

04:54 PM on 03/15/2010

This is ridiculous. The picture above the article has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. The lady shown is unveiled for crying out loud. All the best researched accounts of this event stress that the problem is an educational problem ONLY. It became impossible to teach the student as the special treatment she demanded impacted badly on the other students and severely affected the teachers ability to monitor her speech. The only reasonable solution is for the lady to find enough other veiled students to start another class.

[BillyTugbutter]

11:41 PM on 03/14/2010

If Muslims don't like it in the west, why not go to the middle-east? We would all be much happier.

[Artboyz]

12:59 PM on 03/15/2010

Because they wat a real education.

[bismillah001]

01:40 PM on 03/15/2010

Most Muslims aren't from the "Middle East".

[LegalCodex]

10:40 PM on 03/15/2010

Yep. What's really pretty humorous is the fact that most Arabs in the US are Christian(lots of maronites and copts).

[Puncastle]

11:20 PM on 03/13/2010

Several points:

1) The niqab is not fard, but can be wajib if you are in a society and all women wear niqab, because the woman not wearing niqab would stand out.

2) My personal opinion is that in a non-niqab society it should not be worn for the same reason as above. Niqabi women would stand out and that is the contrary to the intention of niqab.

3) It is a very weak argument that people make that they don't like when women wear niqab because they cannot see their face and therefore, cannot trust them. Should I assume that people who make these claims never listen to the radio for the reason that they cannot see the faces of the people on the radio?

[shahada2009]

03:28 AM on 03/14/2010

Your arguments are good but I disagree! The scholars differ in some since, but one thing for sure is that hijab is mandatory for the Muslimah period! And the hijab encompasses more than just a veil! This is an issue that has been revisited by well know scholars of Islam about Muslims living in the West! These trials and tribulations will continue since the tenets of Islam differ greatly from Western tenets! The pressure applied to the Western Muslimah is to get her to comply with Western standard of beauty and exploitation! This inference applies since the average woman, especially America leaves the house in virtually half nakedness; this is the intention of the fuss to get the Muslimah to comply with these standards! This situation needs to be challenged in court of law by wise counsel, if she removes any garment, then, the anti Islamic forces will attack something else that is worn by the Muslimah until she complies with the nakedness standard which is prevalent in the West! You are absolutely correct in that the hijab is not meant to stand out but one must weigh the factors in making a decision to vacate her hijab! Run the rsik of being disobedient of the demands of our faith or comply and compromise with Western standards that would have an effect in her standing with Allah swt! Lastly, if her life has been threaten or emergent situations, no one would fault this sister in abandoning her hijab!

[Puncastle]

03:26 PM on 03/14/2010

My point was specific to niqab; not hijab. The assumption is already that hijab is fard, which is why there was no need to mention it.

I was referring to whether or not the niqab is fard.

[GinnyW]

05:42 AM on 03/16/2010

You do not discuss the cultural variation among Muslems from the east, as opposed to those from the middle-east. Millions of Moslem women do NOT veil the face and only recently have fanatical, misogynist males in repressive CULTURES required women to veil, remain in the home, except when escorted by a male relative, etc. Women, including Catholic nuns, have covered all except the face, in positions of medicine, law, teaching, and business for a long time without objection . . . albeit with some ridicule such as "penguins" or "Caspers" by bigots. In Iran and Pakistan, even, the women in public life only recently have donned the veil.

[bismillah001]

10:39 AM on 03/14/2010

This has nothing to do with my view on the niqab, but I think the original purpose of hijab was actually to make the women stand out as visible Muslims.

[Paula Ann]

11:16 AM on 03/14/2010

interesting.......i understood hijab and jilbob was to prevent unwanted attention and class distinction which works fine in the middle-east, not so much in the west.

[myaa]

02:18 PM on 03/16/2010

What ever the intention, the requirement was mentioned and it has become fardh (hijab) . Same thing goes for the beard too (in my opinion):
Sahih Bukhari (Volume 7, Book 72, Number 781)
Narrated Ibn 'Umar

Allah's Apostle said, "Cut the moustaches short and leave the beard (as it is)."

[Deep77]

09:16 PM on 03/13/2010

Muslims and all non-Catholics have to understand the context of Quebec's secular laws. Until recent decades, the Catholic Church had controled every asspect of Quebecois life. Even public services weren't immune to the Vatican's in fluence. There is a reason why "tabernac" and even "mozusse"(Moses) are used as curse words by French Canadians. Quebec's secularism had successfully curbed the Catholic hegemony that dominated the province. It is this secularism that has help make non-Catholics feel free to practice their religion in Quebec.

[mamacat]

05:34 PM on 03/13/2010

Here in Southern Cal, there are over a million Muslims, and I see a lot of women wearing head scarves. I think they are very attractive as fashion accessories, I don't mind them at all, and I do not understand the efforts in various places around the world to prevent Muslim women from wearing head scarves. I am not Muslim, but I remember that my own Mother used to wear headscarves if she felt the weather necessitated it.

However, in most circumstances I am used to being able to see the facial expression of the person I am interacting with, and expect to be able to. If a woman is not to be allowed to go outdoors except to go shopping (God forbid), then the need to see her facial expression is minimal, but if she is going to hold a responsible public job or position, then the need to see her facial expression outweighs the need to preserve her supposed modesty. That is my opinion - I think veils are idiotic and a means to oppress women.

[LegalCodex]

07:11 PM on 03/13/2010

I agree with you, and I am a Muslim. I see absolutely no harm in headscarves, but, if we assume that one has to work in a secular society where there *is* interaction between the genders on a daily basis, wearing a veil kind of overdoes it. A lot of human interaction is based off of body language, and the human face, with its ability to express emotions/feeling, is indispendable when it comes to holding a meaningful conversation.

[shahada2009]

03:46 AM on 03/14/2010

When you compromise one aspect of the hijab, how soon anti Islamic law makers will asked for the Muslimah to taken something else off? This is a complex issue since the Muslims live in the West and the standards of beauty encompasses half nakedness and exposure of sensitive parts! These ideals are in direct contravention to Islamic tenets! If a Muslimah is accustomed of wearing any of the pieces which is considered a hijab and told to compromise by removing one garment or piece, this would have an effect upon the Muslimah! Again, if you live in the West as a Muslim, you will constantly be tested and the temptations to comply with the West's morality and standards are so great!

[MJinCanada]

04:15 PM on 03/15/2010

Yes, and it would be very difficult for her to work as a pharmacist, talking to people about their prescriptions, if she cannot face men, with or without the veil. It would seem she's going to have to make a compromise between showing piety and having a career -- rather like those pharmacists who claimed that they had a moral problem with filling birth controls prescriptions.

[Zanubiyah]

03:11 AM on 03/18/2010

mammacat...

If you live in California, and see a woman wearing nijab, it is almost certian that it is her choice, since this is a free nation, and a woman can wear what she wants. I dont think a woman in California can be held in her home, and only allowed to go shopping.

I am glad you expressed your understanding of the veil as 'your opinion', and unlike some who use this issue to oppose diversity, Islam, and immigration, who would state it as 'fact', I must honour you for that, and thank you.

I do agree with you. I want to see people's faces. I just feel that I am 'fully communicating' with someone I can see thier facial expression. I agree that in order to take full advantage of a free society, this woman will have to compromise this type of religiousness to be a full member.

I have worn hijab (that is me in the picture) all of my mature life. I am used to it. I certianly want the right to choose what I wear each day. What others think of me from what I wear is up to them. I do not dress to appease the masses, to ease thier predjudices, fears and stereotypes. I do not feel I have to.

However, this issue is not about the clothes, it is about her trying to impose her self on the class.

[LostRiverLedger]

03:49 PM on 03/13/2010

The woman wants to be a pharmacist. G-d bless her, but I really would feel better being able to see who is dispensing my prescription. Just old fashioned I guess in that I like to develop a trusting relationship with my pharmacist and rightly or wrongly, that includes reading expressions and noting a person's demeanor.......and even knowing its the same person from one day to the next.

Besides, my connection to the "borg" is not advanced enough to have given me retinal scanning capabilities.

[Zanubiyah]

04:35 PM on 03/13/2010

LostRiverLedger...

You make a good point. I dont think though that I would have a problem trusting her with the dispening of my drugs if she were behind the druggist counter, even with the nijab, if it were a stright forward transaction. However, I would feel much more comfortable with a person I can recognize from day to day, someone who seems easy to ask questions to, as you would want your druggist to be, seeing as some of those medications, if the insturctions are misunderstood can be harmful.

However, I am not really seeing the honesty in her effort to be progressive in a free society. Usually, women who hide thier faces in Islam are very conservative, and tend not to participate in society...especially a society they deem religiously flawed.

[Zanubiyah]

01:28 PM on 03/13/2010

Me, being a Muslim woman...and have worn hijab all my life, even through univeristy, agree with the college.

First, let me say strongly that I am not to be included in those who use this kind of issue to promote hatred of those who are different than they, who use it to oppose equality, tolarance, and diveristy.

Many societies not only use words to relay ideas. We use our face as part of communicating including majority Muslim societies. She would not be able to convey a thought completely if she lived in..say... Malaysia, and she should not expect that society to fully understand her.

She knew that the class would have many people of many cultures there, seeing as it was a language class for emigrants, and many of them would not be Muslim. However, she expected the teacher, and the students to conform to her, rather than her conform to the class.

Even though the fear of Muslims is mostly manufactured, she must be aware of the security concerns, even of everyday life, such as using a bank, getting a job, or driving a car. For her to take full advantage of the oppurutnities in a free society, she will have to compromise some of hers.

The woman is living a dilusion...the falsehood that a woman isnt moral, honest, or humble to God (in Islam) if she doesnt cover her face. This is for her to overcome, not the college, or the Canadian government.

[TeraWatt60]

03:27 PM on 03/13/2010

Thank You for articulating exactly my opinion of this matter. If I may ask, why is this type of behavior happening more and more among Muslims in the West and even in Muslim countries like Turkey ?

[Zanubiyah]

03:51 PM on 03/13/2010

TerraWatt60...

I think you are confusing the issue here with the right of a woman to wear what she wants.

Many people in the 'west' and Turkey, a mostly majority nation, would have a problem with me wearing my headscarf in public, simply walking down the street. To me, it is exactly the same oppression to restrict what I wear, as it is to force me to wear something I dont want to...especially because an 'outsider' defines it as oppressive, a political statement, or because they fear the implications of a simple scarf tied over the hair. It shouldnt be my burden to console the fears or thoughts of another. That is why we are different in a free nation...free to express ourselves, but not to impose them on others.

The woman dismissed from the college tried to impose her views on someone else...that is why I am against her, not because she wore the nijab.

[GinnyW]

04:27 AM on 03/17/2010

Rebelliousness is a rite of passage and an instinct to most animals. To protest anything from elders or people in authority is almost required for the young to leave the nest. I'm 70, but I did sit-ins and Freedom Rides in the 60's, manned the phones at a reproductive rights health center during bomb threats and marched in anti-war protests through the 80's (didn't like rock-n-roll and pot did nothing for me, but I did smoke from the age of 15 to 60). My children rebelled against my Humanist liberalism by becoming Moslem, Christian (Church of the Brethern), and a secular Jew, who enlisted in the Marines.

[LostRiverLedger]

03:36 PM on 03/13/2010

The key here, as you rightly noted is the difference between conforming to her wishes or providing a reasonable accommodation. On the face of it, the school did more than required to provide reasonable accommodation.

[Jebel]

10:56 AM on 03/13/2010

Ms Naema was expelled from CGEP St Laurent because she insisted on wearing a full face cover with just slits for her eyes because she is a Muslim.

If Ms Naema were to perform one of the most sacred duties in Islam, the Hajj to Saudi Arabia, she would not be allowed to perform the Hajj with a full or even partial face covering.

A full or partial face covering is considered to be unislamic. It is a pre-Islamic, pagan, tribal tradition and therefore is not allowed on Hajj.

Perhaps it would be in the best interests of everyone concerned if Ms Naema brushed up on what her responsibilities are in Islam in order to be a "good" Muslim.

This is not a question of religion or a women's issue. It is simply a question of the freedom of an individual to wear whatever clothing they themselves deem appropriate.

[alysheba 3]

01:14 PM on 03/13/2010

Muslims have many different ways to worship in their religion as do Christians.

So in the Christian religion who is wrong, the RCC for deciding priests need to be celibate, or or the other religions which allow their ministers and pastors to be married? And when will the world inform the "losers" of that decision to change the way the Church operates? And when will the world force that vision of Christianity to change?

[LostRiverLedger]

03:39 PM on 03/13/2010

And countries have different cultural norms that must be considered by any immigrant wishing to live in harmony with the country in which they wish to work and live.

[Jebel]

10:45 AM on 03/13/2010

Ms Naema was expelled from her class at CGEP St Laurent because she insisted on wearing a full face covering with just slits to reveal her eyes.
If Ms Naema went on Hajj to Saudi Arabia, one the sacred duties of all Muslims, she would not be allowed to wear a full or even partial face covering!
It is considered a pre-Islamic, pagan, tribal tradition and therefore is not allowed when a female participates in one of the holiest Islamic traditions.
Perhaps it would be in the best interests of everyone concerned, if Ms Naema brushed up on exactly what her responsiblities are when trying to be a "good" Muslim.
This has nothing to do with religion, but rather with the freedom to dress as one wishes.