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Court Splits Sharply On Campus Christian Argument

JESSE J. HOLLAND   04/19/10 05:39 PM ET   AP

Gay Marriage

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court seemed to split sharply Monday on whether a law school can deny recognition to a Christian student group that won't let gays join, a case that could determine whether nondiscrimination policies trump the rights of private organizations to determine who can – and cannot – belong.

In arguments tinged with questions of religious, racial and sexual discrimination, the court heard from the Christian Legal Society, which wants recognition from the University of California's Hastings College of the Law as an official campus organization with school financing and benefits.

Hastings, located in San Francisco, turned them down, saying no recognized campus groups may exclude people due to religious belief or sexual orientation.

The Christian group requires that voting members sign a statement of faith. The group also regards "unrepentant participation in or advocacy of a sexually immoral lifestyle" as being inconsistent with the statement of faith.

"CLS has all of its activities entirely open to everyone," lawyer Michael McConnell said. "What it objects to is being run by non-Christians."

A federal judge threw out the Christian group's lawsuit claiming its First Amendment rights of association, free speech and free exercise had been violated, a decision that was upheld by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in a two-sentence opinion in 2004.

The case could clarify nationwide whether religious-based and other private organizations that want federal funding have the right to discriminate against people who do not hold their core beliefs. The court is expected to rule this summer.

"If Hastings is correct, a student who does not even believe in the Bible is entitled to demand to lead a Christian Bible study, and if CLS does not promise to allow this, the college will bar them," said McConnell, a former judge on the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

University lawyer Gregory Garre pointed out that it requires the same thing from all groups that want to operate on campus.

"It is so weird to require the campus Republican Club to admit Democrats, not just to membership, but to officership," Justice Antonin Scalia said. "To require this Christian society to allow atheists not just to join, but to conduct Bible classes, right? That's crazy."

Other justices questioned where a ruling for the Christian group would lead.

"Are you suggesting that if a group wanted to exclude all black people, all women, all handicapped persons, whatever other form of discrimination a group wants to practice, that a school has to accept that group and recognize it, give it funds and otherwise lend it space?" asked Justice Sonia Sotomayor.

No, McConnell said. "The stipulation is that they may not exclude based on status or beliefs. We have only challenged the beliefs, not status. Race, any other status basis, Hastings is able to enforce."

"What if the belief is that African Americans are inferior?" Justice John Paul Stevens said.

"Again, I think they can discriminate on the basis of belief, but not on the basis of status," McConnell said.

Garre, who was the solicitor general for the Bush administration, pointed out that the Supreme Court ruled earlier that Bob Jones University in South Carolina could not ban students who believed in interracial dating and still receive federal funds. "Here we have a group that wants to exclude members on the basis of sexual orientation," he said.

Chief Justice John Roberts said that was only Garre's interpretation. "It's a religious-oriented group that wants to exclude people who do not subscribe to their religious beliefs," he said.

Justice Samuel Alito questioned whether Hastings has allowed other groups to exist on campus that did not allow all comers to join. But Garre pointed out that the Christian Legal Society had stipulated in the lower courts that Hastings did have an all-comers policy, and that registered student organizations must accept all law students as voting members regardless of status or belief.

If they didn't believe it was true, "they shouldn't have stipulated" to that fact, Garre said.

Alito asked Garre what the practical effects of Hastings' policy will be for groups. Say "there is a small Muslim group; it has 10 students. If the group is required to accept anybody who applies for membership, and 50 students who hate Muslims show up and they want to take over that group, you say First Amendment allows that?" Alito said.

Garre said that has never happened to a group.

"CLS obviously thinks this is a real threat," Alito said. "Now, what do you propose that they do?"

Garre said the members who are now outnumbered can leave the group.

"If hostile members take over, former members of CLS can form CLS 2?" Alito asked skeptically.

The Christian group could require knowledge of the Bible to join, Garre said. "There is a fundamental difference between excluding people on the basis of merit and excluding people on the basis of status or belief that has no connection to merit," he said.

The Christian Legal Society has chapters at universities nationwide and has sued other universities on the same grounds. It won at Southern Illinois University, when the university settled with the group in 2007 and recognized its membership and leadership policies.

A federal judge in Montana said in May 2009 that the University of Montana law school did not discriminate against the Christian Legal Society when it refused to give the group Student Bar Association money because of its policies.

The case before the Supreme Court is Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, 08-1371.

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WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court seemed to split sharply Monday on whether a law school can deny recognition to a Christian student group that won't let gays join, a case that could determine whet...
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court seemed to split sharply Monday on whether a law school can deny recognition to a Christian student group that won't let gays join, a case that could determine whet...
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Turtleposer
I have micro-bios in my tummy.
01:49 PM on 04/24/2010
As long as the Christian student group doesn't get public funding, then I think the law school should recognize it.

FYI, I'm very pro-gay rights & I am an atheist. I just don't think it's the job of the government to regulate groups that aren't supported with public $.
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Turtleposer
I have micro-bios in my tummy.
02:06 PM on 04/24/2010
I mean - "can", not "should".

But I'm rethinking my opinion now considering that the University of California's Law School is in fact publicly funded. Perhaps in this case they should not recognize a discriminatory group.
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SPQR1775
12:55 PM on 04/23/2010
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hswanson2
Could you work if farmers didn't
07:03 PM on 04/20/2010
Having followed the oral arguments yesterday on NPR I have to say that I think the law school missed a killer point (and a sticky issue for the court). CLS challenged the belief but not the status claim - the law school could have argued being gay is a status - brought in the current science on nature (which in my opinion is fairly compelling) - in addition they could have further argued that the religious beliefs of CLS could also be used to exclude other groups with status such as blacks which had the mark of Cain used against them for years by the Mormons - or women (to many examples to cite) - or even the people closest to Alito, Roberts and Scalia heart's (if they have them) bankers .
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SonicUltimate
12:28 AM on 04/23/2010
Religion is in and of itself a protected class status just like race or sex. Making membership based on religious belief is not allowed when asking for public funds.
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06:44 PM on 04/20/2010
I'm a little torn on this one. On one hand, I think its kind of ridiculous that people can't form groups to their own liking. I might not like it, but then, I don't have to join the group. I think people should be able to form organizations of whatever form or character they want.

On the other hand, I can see how the university would theoretically have a right to deny funds to such a group. Though, this still sounds weak to me. Whats the point of having a group that can theoretically include anyone who believes anything. Perhaps its PC going to far, sort of a forcing of culture down peoples throat. If these xtians want to have their own club, why not? Its not as if they are planning violence against anyone.
12:25 AM on 04/21/2010
I think the second point, the issue of funds, is the crux of the argument. From what I understand the university is not forbidding students from joining an exclusive club, they are only maintaining a position that university funds will not be made available to any group that discriminates in regard to allowing membership. This seems fair to me, especially considering that university funds are paid for, in large part by students' tuition. Therefore, all students should be able to benefit from the expenditure of those funds. However, if some of those funds are going to support an organization from which certain students are barred, I would consider that to be a misuse of said monies.

Once again, it doesn't seem like the university is trying to deny students the right to assemble in any organization they please, but rather saying that university funds, funds meant for all students, are only available for those groups which theoretically could benefit all students.

On a side note, isn't it beautifully ironic that all of this legal hoopla is taking place at a law school?
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05:31 PM on 04/21/2010
I think the student tuition should benefit all students argument is the one I'm most sympathetic to. On the other hand, is this always true? When I went to college, I wasn't involved in sports, yet a lot of my tuition went to sports. Clearly I didn't benefit from that, though I suppose I could of. Perhaps schools shouldn't be in the business of funding clubs. That would probably satisfy me most.
12:31 AM on 04/21/2010
In looking at a couple of comments below, I realize that the funding being discussed is federal funding, not funding that stems from tuition costs. Regardless, the federal government clearly has put laws in place against discrimination for any organization which receives federal support. So once again I stand by my claim that, while these students are and should be free to join whatever private organization they choose, no matter how discriminatory, they should not expect federal funding for said organization.
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05:28 PM on 04/21/2010
I know, I know, but it still makes me uncomfortable. So the school takes federal funds, weeelll, its not that the school is discriminating in admissions, right? This is just a campus club. See what I mean?
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
04:21 PM on 04/20/2010
I'm wondering if Chief Justice Roberts would have such a problem with denying this group if the group instead excluded everybody who didn't believe that [NAME YOUR BIBLE PASSAGE].

So, here's my challenge:

1. Quote some Bible restriction on women, men, sheep, whatever, that was a societal norm at the time it was written but which is clearly rejected by our current society.

2. Now make Chief Justice Roberts' case as for why that group should be entitled to get university money while excluding folks who don't believe that very same thing. Does it sound sensible or loony?
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
04:08 PM on 04/20/2010
I believe that Justice Sonia Sotomayor will be able to see this issue in all of its ugly connotations. If she can't sway enough for a majority, I hope she writes a searing dissent.

Further, if a Justice's own religious beliefs so strongly compel only one answer to this issue that the Justice cannot fairly considering other possible resolutions, that Justice should recuse him/herself.

John Roberts, take note.
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
03:35 PM on 04/20/2010
You know, I just fail to see the trouble here. The group is certainly free to exist without University funding and be just as discriminatory as it wants.

The issue here is money for student activities comes from an institution that is subject to federal requirements itself. There are plenty of strings on the money a college or university gets from the federal government. I see the university's hands as being tied, here.

The selection of a law school as the target defendant is no accident, either. No esteemed law school wants to be painted as violating the law. This group just wants to manipulate the definition of what the law requires here in pursuit of its ultra conservative agenda and it's view that its own, and ONLY its own, interpretation of the Bible is correct.

And don't think for a minute that this is just some private student activity. When an organization takes money from a university to become an official, university-sponsored organization, it becomes subject to the university's rules and regulations for student organizations as well as to oversight by the university. To make an exception in this one case is to chink a hole in the dike that no thumb is big enough to stopper up. Students will form organizations with all sorts of offensive beliefs and demand university money. This is just repulsive.

It's highly offensive to me that a university that takes federal money could be forced to support such an organization.
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JamesSin
03:00 PM on 04/20/2010
How about an opt-in? Let all students who want to fund the group pay the per capita fees of the group. All those who don't want to fund the group can abstain. That way we can avoid the ugly scenario of people funding a group who may not be allowed to join.
And we avoid upsetting conservative christians.

Reasonable solutions for reasonable people,
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
03:47 PM on 04/20/2010
An opt-in on the part of the students just goes to whether they want their own money being spent on the group. That's hardly the issue here.

The issue is whether a university subject to strict federal regulation as a condition of receiving federal aid can use a single cent of such money to support a discriminatory group. Student contributions in the form of activities fees on their tuition bill do not fully cover the total cost of use of university facilities for all those student organizations.

Perhaps a legal beagle could speak to this: Even if the university spent exactly no funds in support of the student organization, would merely designating it AS a student organization fun afoul of the federal nondiscrimination restrictions on the university? Or does the university actually have to spend money on it for those restrictions to be triggered? What if the university just lends a room or auditorium? This would be essentially "spending" money because of the cost of electricity, janitors, etc., right?
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JamesSin
03:52 PM on 04/20/2010
The issue can only be money. Students, as individuals are free to form groups which exclude whomever they want. The affiliation with the university is triggered only when federal money comes into the picture. If such a group were fully funded only by those members of the student body who choose to fund it, but received no aid from either the university or any other source- the issue should be resolved.
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mcvet
History will educate you on the future
11:31 AM on 04/20/2010
The American Taliban is no different than their middle eastern counter parts now are they? LOL The School is right to allow ALL students to join whatever group they wish AND in requiring that the knuckle draggers NOT be allowed to discriminate.
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DAVROS1
11:28 AM on 04/20/2010
What we need here, really, is the correct and proper denial of ALL gov't monies being paid to religious organizations. Want to call your group the Christian Legal Society, fine, no problem, and no money.

I have a real serious issue with tax dollars funding churches.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
emlr
"a man of knowledge is free"
11:42 AM on 04/20/2010
Co-signed and fanned.
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rossor
Clinton/Warren 2016!
02:02 PM on 04/20/2010
Bingo. Let people fund quirky superstitions on their own dime.
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aktivrebel
Raise the bar
10:19 AM on 04/20/2010
I think we is needed here is separation of church and religion....
10:37 AM on 04/20/2010
Or freedom of religion where religious groups get equal access.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
emlr
"a man of knowledge is free"
11:43 AM on 04/20/2010
They can have all the access they want as long as my tax dollars don't pay for it.
02:05 PM on 04/20/2010
Amen and fanned.
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08:38 AM on 04/20/2010
Will these 'Christians' ever grow up and stop expecting a double standard? Keep your faith in your heart and Bible teaching in your home and church and leave it out of public universities. People don't go to Law School to hear fairy tales about talking snakes, virgin pregnancies, homophobia and rivers of blood sent by a loving gawd.

Go to Pat Robertson's 4th tier law school and get a job in the next Republican Administration. There you can learn in an environment that denies all the things that challenge your theological mythology.
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Javaline
10:05 AM on 04/20/2010
You said what I was going to say. That's their solution - have your exclusive little club somewhere else but don't expect your school to pick up the tab. Vicious-minded little whiners.
02:06 PM on 04/20/2010
Poor baby. You have to live in a society where you hear things you don't like. I have a tear in my eye.
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
03:51 PM on 04/20/2010
Actually, they would have to live in an environment where *gasp* they would have to LOOK AT, SPEAK WITH, AND INTERACT WITH gays.

Oh, the horror of it.

For the rest of us who think that colleges and universities should be presenting maximum exposure to other ideas, ethics, mores, and cultures, letting gays participate would be a uniquely challenging learning experience.
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07:58 AM on 04/20/2010
Here is the real question, what do we do as citizens of the SCOTUS rules in favor of this group getting public money to help them discriminate?
If they rule on the grounds that it violates their first amendment rights, we must be prepared for the flood gates to open. It will be a precident that will allow groups (such as the KKK, or Aryan brotherhood) to have a public university supported presence on every public campus in the US. I have no problem with them having their groups, but I draw the line at the government supporting them; through the coffers of higher education especially!
Boopsie2008
Hold the Vision-Trust the Process: Obama/Biden
03:53 PM on 04/20/2010
Perfectly put.
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qirin
My name is Brown. Catch me if you can.
06:48 AM on 04/20/2010
As far as I'm concerned, as soon as a campus private organization accepts school financing, it ceases to be a private. If they want to discriminate, I'm fine with that, as long as the other students are not forced to fund their discrimination.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Amalek
Highly decorated HP warrior
06:00 AM on 04/20/2010
It seems this case really boils down to a simple issue. Can the state be required to fund a group that has a religious test for membership?
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11:59 AM on 04/20/2010
Yes...and more pointedly (to me)...Can an extension of our government (via federal funds) discriminate based on religious belief.

This case reveals the massive erosion of the church / state wall. Especially, how the majority Christian belief system has seeped so far through and under the state wall that we don't recognize the danger and find a way to bend the law to support majority held Christian beliefs.

A minority group wouldn't have the audacity to pursue such a suit & such a suit wouldn't go far. That's why we don't have an exclusionary Jewish /Muslim /Atheist group asking for federal funds with the simultaneous ability to reject Christians. The minority group meets on it's own dollar and so should the Christians.