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The Two Raymond Carvers

First Posted: 05/14/10 08:04 AM ET Updated: 05/25/11 05:25 PM ET

Raymond Carver

Giles Harvey
The New York Review of Books

"Collected Stories"
by Raymond Carver, edited and with notes by William L. Stull and Maureen P. Carroll
Library of America, 1,019 pp., $40.00

"Raymond Carver: A Writer's Life"
by Carol Sklenicka
Scribner, 578 pp., $35.00


1.

Vladimir Nabokov referred to editors as "pompous avuncular brutes." T.S. Eliot said that many of them were just "failed writers." And Kingsley Amis, that laureate of cantankerousness, spoke of how the worst kind

prowls through your copy like an overzealous gardener with a pruning hook, on the watch for any phrase he senses you were rather pleased with, preferably one that also clinches your argument and if possible is essential to the general drift of the surrounding passage.

Raymond Carver, at least to begin with, was on altogether better terms with his editor, Gordon Lish, to whom he once wrote, "If I have any standing or reputation or credibility in the world, I owe it to you." Elsewhere Carver acknowledged his debt to Lish by saying simply that his editor held an "irredeemable note." This brief, eloquent tribute is paid in the essay "Fires," which Carver wrote during a stay at Yaddo, the artist's colony in upstate New York, in the summer of 1981. He had every reason to be feeling grateful. A few months earlier his second short-story collection, "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love," had been published and was still being hailed and heralded by the literary world.

The book made Carver famous and, for the first time in his chronically impecunious existence, rich. It has since come to be regarded as the cornerstone not only of his reputation but of an entire literary movement, whose members might loosely be said to include Richard Ford, Jayne Anne Phillips, Tobias Wolff, Amy Hempel, and Mary Robison, among others. Few books of the last quarter-century have been more widely imitated. Attend a creative writing workshop or open a magazine of short stories nowadays and the chances are you will encounter one of Carver's numberless epigones.

What critics admired--and what Carver's heirs would strive to emulate--was the book's lean, reticent prose style, which seems to register every detail with the same neutral intensity, the same dispassionate precision. There is, for example, almost no difference between the manner in which Carver describes a woman ordering a birthday cake for her son--

The cake she chose was decorated with a spaceship and a launching pad under a sprinkling of white stars. The name SCOTTY would be iced on in green as if it were the name of the spaceship.

--and the manner in which, shortly thereafter, he describes the son being hit by a car:

At an intersection, without looking, the birthday boy stepped off the curb, and was promptly knocked down by a car. He fell on his side, his head in the gutter, his legs in the road moving as if he were climbing a wall.

Carver's prose does not flinch. The fictional world he uses it to describe is a sprawling hinterland inhabited by drifters and floaters, by stay-at-home drunks and itinerant deadbeats. His characters struggle to hold on to jobs they hate and to marriages that have become more trouble than they're worth. The only relief is to be found at the bottom of a glass of whiskey or on a weekend fishing trip. This of course is the world in which Carver spent most of his life. Chronicling it with scrupulous attention would earn him his ticket out.

On July 8, 1980, however, one year before his triumphant summer at Yaddo, Carver had written to Gordon Lish urging him to halt production on "What We Talk About." He had just spent the whole night going over Lish's edited version of the book and was taken aback by the changes. His manuscript had been radically transformed. Lish had cut the total length of the book by over 50 percent; three stories were at least 70 percent shorter; ten stories had new titles and the endings of fourteen had been rewritten.

The long, anguished letter begins with another frank acknowledgment of debt, although here Carver is less graceful, and less concise:

You are a wonder, a genius, and there's no doubt of that, better than any two of Max Perkins, etc. etc. And I'm not unmindful of the fact of my immense debt to you, a debt I can simply never, never repay. This whole new life I have, so many of the friends I now have, this job up here [teaching creative writing at Syracuse University], everything, I owe to you....

Carver met Lish in 1967. Both men were working as textbook editors in Palo Alto. Lish, himself an aspiring writer, had come across Carver's fiction in various little magazines and was already an admirer. They became friends and drinking partners--although for Carver, a full-fledged alcoholic, the terms were more or less synonymous.

In 1969, Lish tall-talked his way into a job as fiction editor of Esquire. "The plain fact is," he wrote in a remarkable deal-sealing letter to Harold Hayes, the magazine's editor in chief, "I have earned this job--through great love for the short story and great labor to know it, to make it the province in which my sensibilities live." He was soon publishing Carver, who assured him he hadn't "backed the wrong horse." Then, in 1975, Lish moved to McGraw-Hill where he was given his own imprint. His first order of business was to call his friend and offer him a contract for a book of stories. "Will You Please Be Quiet, Please?" was published the following year and a "whole new life" began to open up for Carver.

So one can understand, reading his letter of July 8, 1980, why Carver was "not unmindful" of all he owed to Lish. What he was now concerned about, however, was going even further into debt. Although he was "awed and astonished" by the new text, Carver, who had recently quit drinking, pleaded with Lish not to go ahead:

I'm afraid, mortally afraid, I feel it, that if the book were to be published as it is in its present edited form, I may never write another story, that's how closely, God Forbid, some of those stories are to my sense of regaining my health and mental well-being.

Lish, however, overruled Carver--and the rest is literary history.

2.

The new Library of America edition of Carver's "Collected Stories" has galled many by what they view as its attempt to rewrite this history. At the behest of Tess Gallagher, Carver's widow and literary executor, its editors, William L. Stull and Maureen P. Carroll, have made the decision to include the manuscript version of "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love," under the title "Beginners," [1] alongside the text that established Carver's reputation in 1981.

Both in the notes to this book and elsewhere, Stull and Carroll provide several ostensibly good reasons for this decision. The centerpiece of their argument is Carver's July 1980 letter, quoted above, which Gallagher takes as proof that he "didn't ultimately accept" Lish's revisions. Furthermore, they argue,

Carver chose thirty stories from his previously published books for what proved to be his final book of fiction, "Where I'm Calling From: New and Selected Stories" (1988). Significantly, he included three of his original versions instead of their Lish-edited counterparts from "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love."

Thus, according to Stull and Carroll, '"Beginners' completes the restoration that Raymond Carver began--a restoration cut short by his too-early death."

In their eagerness to make the case for the manuscript version, Stull and Carroll give short shrift to several important points. The first is that Carver did come around to Lish's version. Less than a week after his anguished letter, he wrote his editor to say, "I'm thrilled about the book and its impending publication. I'm stoked about it...." Apparently, according to Stull and Carroll, "The resistance he had voiced a week earlier had collapsed, as had his self-confidence." Perhaps. But one is hardly obliged to take Carver's earlier resistance as a definitive statement about his wishes for the book, nor can speculation about his self-confidence be used to undermine the fact that he did change his mind.

Second, Stull and Carroll are correct in saying that Carver chose three pre-Lished stories from "What We Talk About" for inclusion in "Where I'm Calling From," but they seriously downplay the fact that he also chose to republish eight stories in their post-Lish versions in the same book. Their presumption that Carver would have republished his original text in its entirety had he lived is exactly that: a presumption. In any case, the main problem with the decision to publish "Beginners" is much more straightforward: the book isn't very good.

"Beginners" is twice as long as "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love" (202 pages compared to 103 in the present volume), and about half as interesting. One can't help but wonder whether the Library of America would be republishing Carver now if it had been this version of the book, and not the one pruned and scoured by Lish, that appeared in 1981. Carver's original text, it turns out, is dense with sentimentality and melodrama. Lish sensed a leaner, quieter, more agile book trapped inside the manuscript and he hacked away briskly until he was satisfied he'd found it.

The two versions of "One More Thing," the final story in both "Beginners" and "What We Talk About," reveal Lish's editing at its most drastic and inspired. Maxine, the beleaguered wife of L.D., an alcoholic, returns home from work one evening to find him embroiled in an argument with their teenage daughter. After several volleys of abuse are exchanged, Maxine orders him to leave: "Tonight. This minute. Now." L.D. bundles some things together--including the only tube of toothpaste in the house--and then prepares to say goodbye. Here is the ending Carver initially wrote:

L.D. put the shaving bag under his arm again and once more picked up the suitcase. "I just want to say one more thing, Maxine. Listen to me. Remember this," he said. "I love you. I love you no matter what happens. I love you too, Bea. I love you both." He stood there at the door and felt his lips begin to tingle as he looked at them for what, he believed, might be the last time. "Good-bye," he said.

"You call this love, L.D.?" Maxine said. She let go of Bea's hand. She made a fist. Then she shook her head and jammed her hands into her coat pockets. She stared at him and then dropped her eyes to something on the floor near his shoes.

It came to him with a shock that he would remember this night and her like this. He was terrified to think that in the years ahead she might come to resemble a woman he couldn't place, a mute figure in a long coat, standing in the middle of a lighted room with lowered eyes.

"Maxine!" he cried. "Maxine!"

"Is this what love is, L.D.?" she said, fixing her eyes on him. Her eyes were terrible and deep, and he held them as long as he could.

Like his protagonist, Carver doesn't quite seem to know how to make an exit: his prose flails and stammers in its effort to wring as much excitement from the scene as possible ("It came to him with a shock," "He was terrified to think"), before petrifying into the mawkish tableau of the final sentence. It all seems rather un-Carveresque.

Here is the Lish version:

L.D. put the shaving bag under his arm and picked up the suitcase.

He said, "I just want to say one more thing."

But then he could not think what it could possibly be.

Compared to this, the original climax has the weightless intensity of a soap opera ("Is this what love is, L.D.?"), in which people broadcast their emotions to one another in stentorian italics. Carver had deployed an entire arsenal where in fact, as Lish shows, a well-placed sniper is all that is needed. It is not only both funny and poignant that L.D. should find himself at a loss for words at such an instant. It also feels inevitable. Once we read it for the first time, it's difficult to imagine the story ending any other way (the same can surely not be said of the earlier draft). Of course, we think, a man who is not above stealing the toothpaste from his wife and daughter--Lish, by the way, has him take the dental floss as well--would forget what he had to say. A lifetime of bungling, failure, humiliation, and deceit seems to be disclosed in a single moment.

Carver is most often thought of as the master of such moments, as a writer who, like his hero Chekhov, excelled at representing people not quite finding the right words for things. Casting one's eye back and forth between "Beginners" and "What We Talk About," however, it becomes increasingly clear that to a large degree it was Lish who created this reticence, this emphasis on the unsaid. Like the original version of "One More Thing," many of the stories in "Beginners"--"So Much Water So Close to Home," "A Small, Good Thing," "Want to See Something?" "Beginners" itself--end with outbursts, with passionate speeches and pronouncements in which characters finally manage to give voice to their emotions. Almost none of this survived Lish's scrutiny; it was either excised or radically condensed.

Henry James once said that in art, economy is beauty. This is something Lish understood far better than Carver. The brilliance of his editorial husbandry is apparent on almost every page. In "The Third Thing That Killed My Father Off" we find Lish reining in the rhetorical excesses of the original, so that this mannered sub-Faulknerian description of a drowned neighbor's hand being exhumed from a lake--

For myself, I knew I wouldn't forget the sight of that arm emerging out of the water. Like some kind of mysterious and terrible signal, it seemed to herald the misfortune that dogged our family in the coming years.

--is transformed into the wry, demotic stoicism of:

That arm coming up and going back down in the water, it was like so long to good times and hello to bad. Because it was nothing but that all the years after Dummy drowned himself in that dark water.

3.

Carver, then, was not speaking idly when he said that Lish held an "irredeemable note." As we learn from Carol Sklenicka's new biography, however, Lish was by no means the only person to whom Carver was in the hole. Debt--emotional, artistic, financial--was one of the central themes of his life. Carver was born in Clatskanie, Oregon, in 1938, the son of a sawmill worker, from whom he would inherit a taste for both alcohol and restless wandering. He was only nineteen when he married his high school sweetheart, Maryann Burk, who had herself graduated from high school less than a week earlier. Children soon followed, and with them came, as Carver put it, nineteen years of "unrelieved responsibility and permanent distraction." He held a series of "crap jobs"--janitor, drugstore clerk--that he would later pass on to his characters, but it was Maryann who took on most of the work, hoping to give her husband as much time as possible to devote to his writing.

Drunkenness frequently came between Carver and his craft, and Sklenicka's book is, among other things, a catalog of increasingly depraved drinking stories. Carver gets drunk at a restaurant and steals a pepper grinder. Carver gets drunk at home and ruins Christmas. Carver gets drunk at a party and throws a glass at his wife's head. Drunkenness also had a way of coming between Carver and his family's money. During this period they filed twice for bankruptcy protection.

The couple separated in 1976. Carver quit drinking the following year. "I'm prouder of that," he once said, "than I am of anything in my life." He spent his last eleven years with the poet Tess Gallagher, whom he married in 1988, the year he died of lung cancer at the age of fifty. Gallagher became an important reader of his early drafts and was also essential to his ongoing sobriety.

Sklenicka has done exhaustive research (she began interviewing people in 1994) and, as you would expect, "Raymond Carver: A Writer's Life" is bursting with valuable information. It is not, however, a distinguished book. It contains little in the way of sensitive textual analysis. Sklenicka mines the stories for biographical data but does so with little delicacy or discrimination. "Collectors," for example, written in the mid-1970s during the nadir of his alcoholism, is cited as

evidence that Carver understood himself to be finished. No longer was he the writer and man named Raymond Carver: he was a nameless bankrupt and drunk whose wife had little use for him, ready for the dustbin of history.

This is a curious surmise. Why would someone who no longer thinks of himself as a writer decide to write a story about the fact?

Sklenica is no better at describing the historical and cultural background of Carver's life. She sees late-1960s America, for example, as a time when

Nihilism and carpe diem alternated to create a sense that nothing mattered and you could get away with anything. Women went without bras, and men and women alike uttered angry profanities to display minds as unfettered as their bodies.

Elsewhere we get useless juxtapositions, such as: "In 1960, as John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon ran for president, Lish, now twenty-six, began teaching English at Mills High School in the suburb of Millbrae." And: "In January 1980, as Jimmy Carter's presidency limped through its final year and Ronald Reagan's first presidential campaign gathered momentum, Ray moved to Syracuse." It is unfortunate that Sklenicka did not have someone like Gordon Lish to shape this book into something more thoughtful and illuminating.

4.

After the success of "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love," Carver's relationship with Lish began to sour. "Being around Ray and Gordon in the early 1980s," said one mutual friend, "was like watching a marriage go bad." During preparations for his next book, "Cathedral" (1983), Carver made it clear he would not "undergo the kind of surgical amputation and transplant that might make [the new stories] someway fit into the carton so the lid will close." Reluctantly, Lish complied. Sending him an edited version of one of the stories that would appear in "Cathedral," Lish said the work he'd done on it represented the "minimum" he felt was possible: "to do less than this would be, in my judgment, to expose you too greatly." Like a host who keeps the lights low so as to conceal the stains on the carpet and the dents in the walls, Lish suggests, the constraints imposed on Carver's first two collections were necessary to mask the limitations of his writing.

This is a harsh judgment, harshly phrased, but there is some truth to it. As Lish's influence receded, Carver's fiction became more conventional. Silences dwindle; there is more loose talk; the emotional volume is turned up. In "Fever," a high school teacher, Carlyle, befriends an elderly woman, Mrs. Webster, whom he has hired to babysit his young children after his wife leaves him for another man. When, toward the end of the story, Mrs. Webster tells him that she and her husband have decided to leave the area, she inadvertently uncaps a geyser of schmaltz:

Mrs. Webster, there's something I want you to know. For a long time, my wife and I loved each other more than anything or anybody in the world. And that includes those children. We thought, well, we knew that we'd grow old together. And we knew we'd do all the things in the world that we wanted to do, and do them together.

When Carlyle pauses, Mrs. Webster presses him to continue, as it dawns on us that she is little more than the emissary of Carver's sentimentalism:

I know what you're saying. You just keep talking, Mr. Carlyle. Sometimes it's good to talk about it. Sometimes it has to be talked about. Besides, I want to hear it. And you're going to feel better afterwards. Something just like it happened to me once, something like what you're describing. Love. That's what it is.

There is nothing at all poignant about writing with such naked designs on our emotions. One can't help reading this passage through the eyes of Lish, who understood that fiction has to stalk its prey with less noise and greater cunning.

Still, there are several post-Lish masterpieces, stories like "Feathers," "Where I'm Calling From," and "Whoever Was Using This Bed," that one can be glad Lish did not edit. The title story from "Cathedral" is one of the best Carver ever wrote. Free from the garrulous sentimentality that sinks "Fever" (and most of "Beginners"), it nevertheless achieves an emotional range that Carver felt to be lacking from his earlier work. Without understanding why, the narrator is agitated by the visit of one of his wife's old friends, a blind man for whom she used to work. After dinner the two men smoke marijuana together while watching a television documentary about European cathedrals. It occurs to the narrator that the blind man must have only a vague notion of what cathedrals are. He tries to describe them:

To begin with, they're very tall.... They reach way up. Up and up. Toward the sky. They're so big, some of them, they have to have these supports. To help hold them up, so to speak. These supports are called buttresses. They remind me of viaducts, for some reason. But maybe you don't know viaducts, either?

He soon realizes, however, that he isn't "getting through to him." One can imagine Lish ending the story here, at a moment of stalled speech. It is also possible to conceive of a younger, less-assured Carver launching the narrator or the blind man into a lachrymose personal confession. The story does something different. At the blind man's suggestion they draw a cathedral together, the blind man holding the narrator's hand. It is an oddly moving scene that builds to a note rarely struck in the Lish stories--one of cautious affirmation. When they are finished the blind man asks the narrator how it looks:

But I had my eyes closed. I thought I'd keep them that way for a little longer. I thought it was something I ought to do.

"Well?" he said. "Are you looking?"

My eyes were still closed. I was in my house. I knew that. But I didn't feel like I was inside anything.

"It's really something," I said.

The publication of "Beginners" has not done Carver any favors. Rather, it has inadvertently pointed up the editorial genius of Gordon Lish. There are certainly some fine stories among Carver's later work and they should make us grateful that he ultimately broke with his editor; and yet it is unlikely that we would be reading the later stories at all were it not for Lish's transformation of "What We Talk About."

Still, it is the stories themselves, and not their genesis, that will continue to seize and hold attention. Like Maxwell Perkins's editing of "Look Homeward Angel" (which cut 90,000 words from Thomas Wolfe's manuscript) or Ezra Pound's liberation of "The Waste Land" from inside the welter of T.S. Eliot's inauspiciously titled first draft, "He Do the Police in Different Voices," we are likely to end up viewing Lish's involvement with Carver as a footnote, incidental to our appreciation of the finished work. Readers of the "Collected Stories" would do well to remember a remark of Pound's, which Carver himself once quoted in an interview: "It's immensely important that great poems be written, but it makes not a jot of difference who writes them."

Read more at the New York Review of Books website.



1. As Stull and Carroll explain, they have chosen the name Beginners for the manuscript version "because the story 'Beginners' corresponds to the title story of 'What We Talk About When We Talk About Love.'"

FOLLOW HUFFPOST BOOKS

Giles Harvey The New York Review of Books "Collected Stories" by Raymond Carver, edited and with notes by William L. Stull and Maureen P. Carroll Library of America, 1,019 pp., $40.00 "Raymond Carve...
Giles Harvey The New York Review of Books "Collected Stories" by Raymond Carver, edited and with notes by William L. Stull and Maureen P. Carroll Library of America, 1,019 pp., $40.00 "Raymond Carve...
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MikeDu
Both salubrious and lugubrious concurrently.
11:48 AM on 05/26/2010
When I first read it several years ago I frankly disliked "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love," And it was precisely because the text on the page seemed to have been so heavily edited, redacted, manhandled by some anonymous 3rd party. It didn't seem like the outpouring of the author's mind, it seemed more like the arrangement of wooden blocks to suit the editor's fancy. Apparently my impression was correct.
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brettrobbins
06:39 AM on 05/17/2010
From a purely artistic standpoint, Lish may very well have benefited Carver by helping him preserve the "Carver" style. From the standpoint of authenticity, however, Lish may have done him a disservice by preventing him from displaying stylistic facets (e.g., "stammering") that would have revealed a different, less familiar side of his personality: an admirable willingness to take risks, to violate the stylistic comfort zone policed so efficiently by Lish and by doing so to "defamiliarize" his readers' expectations of who he was as a writer.
05:54 AM on 05/18/2010
So, is this not a major literary scandal? Something possibly worse, in a way, than James Frey, who at least wrote his own fraudulent memoir and always considered it a novel. Seems that way, but who really wants to come out and say it. Much is invested in maintaining Carver's stature as the great blue collar minimalist writer. An inkling of something not adding up occurred recently, when I picked up a book of Carver poetry inelegantly, almost parodically, titled Where Water Comes Together with Other Water. The poems seemed a little vapid and far from honed like the stories I knew so well. I do think this piece is hard on Sklenicka's book, which is highly readable and refreshingly candid about how the sainted Tess Gallagher bagged Carver, then made sure she'd control the estate to the detriment blood kin. Reminds of the situation with Plath, Hughes and Hughes' widow. But TG made RC very happy and that's nice.
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brettrobbins
12:39 PM on 05/18/2010
How do we know how much of his pseudo-memoir Frey actually wrote? I assume his work was edited more or less extensively by someone else as well. I think the point is that since we never know how much of a given book the attributed author actually wrote, our emphasis should be on the work itself rather than the supposedly sole author. This issue is hardly new: Was there a Homer? Was there a Shakespeare? These questions always left me cold: Who cares? What matters is the intrinsic value (or lack thereof) of the final product. When, however, we have a situation where we have access to both the official version of a given work (i.e., the well-known "Carver") and its unofficial version (i.e., the newly unearthed relatively sloppy, risk-taking Carver), we have every right to ask ourselves which we prefer, or perhaps better yet, whether we like both equally well but for different reasons. I think I fall into the latter camp: I like the polished Carver from a purely artistic standpoint and the sloppy Carver from a standpoint of warts-and-all authenticity. After all, although Frey rather than Carver was responsible for the changes he made to preserve the minimalist Carver mystique, Carver was still alive, cognizant of these changes, sanctioned them, and agreed to take credit for them (much as a politician does when he/she accepts credit for a speech someone else contributed to--or even wrote outright).
AlPal3
Had Enough? Vote Democratic
02:54 AM on 05/16/2010
Oh, please. Will you please be quiet, please?
08:06 PM on 05/19/2010
THIS
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Nebris
Auteur and Guru
01:29 AM on 05/16/2010
I've heard Carver done better at plenty of AA meetings, and with happier endings, too
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10:44 AM on 05/16/2010
forgetting about the Anonymous part are we?
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Nebris
Auteur and Guru
12:42 PM on 05/16/2010
The 'anonymous' part is that we don't reveal the identity of others. And my IRL name ain't Nebris anyway. =)
08:39 PM on 05/15/2010
I've always found myself to be a minority among my fellow readers. A little Raymond Carver is enjoyable, but after a point (sooner rather than later) I think, "One more cigarette, drink, or cup of coffee and I'm going to throw the book across the room." I think he became the darling of writing workshops because what he did looked deceptively easy. I would not count him among the great short story writers...perhaps I should revisit him now that I am slouching through middle age, I dunno.....
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04:47 PM on 05/20/2010
I like Dante's Inferno for a good laugh. Seeing half the Catholic religious hierarchy in various states of eternal punishment never ceases to draw chuckle out of me.
01:31 PM on 05/15/2010
"...the book's lean, reticent prose style, which seems to register every detail with the same neutral intensity, the same dispassionate precision. There is, for example, almost no difference between the manner in which Carver describes a woman ordering a birthday cake for her son...and the manner in which, shortly thereafter, he describes the son being hit by a car..."

Strange that this is written in praise of Carver's writing, as it's precisely what makes this style so excruciating. It's a perfect example of the modernist/post-modernist habit of driving art into irrelevance by imposing increasingly arbitrary and abstract aesthetic standards. Art should not be a hair shirt.
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04:43 PM on 05/20/2010
"Hair shirt"? Hmm, art is lots of things and everyone has their own levels of appreciation. I like Carver well enough but I'm a Joyce fan and his "Dubliners" by comparison are nuanced, have depth to them and a sense of humor that is not found in Carver.
08:02 PM on 05/20/2010
Read whatever you like. It's not a matter of "levels of appreciation" but of simple appreciation. I just don't share Giles Harvey's taste for autistic writing, or the tedious, century old "modernist" antipathy to romanticism and fear of sentiment that inspired it.
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01:14 PM on 05/15/2010
I read Raymond Carver. I have for years. I read his stories over and over. Nothing else comes close to conveying the deep well spring of earnest emotion that Carver's writing does. I have heard about Lish's influence on Raymond Carver's writing. At first I was in disbelief. I didnt want to accept the fact that another person was responsible for Ray's vision. Reading this article has made things more clear about the matter. Lish executed ruthless revisions to serve Ray's underlying heartfelt vision. He saw the Ray that was there, buried under all the years and expericences Ray was trying to get out from under. We, not just Ray are indebted to exposing this aspect of him.
03:32 PM on 05/14/2010
I think what this fantastic article illustrates is that Lish played a crucial role in Carver's development as a writer, and deserves a lot of credit for reigning in some of Carver's excesses. This does not mean, as some have been suggesting for the past few years, that Lish actually ghostwrote the stories; nor did he somehow violate the purity of Carver's vision (which seems to be the implication when people talk about "restoring" the mediocre original versions of the stories). He simply helped an author improve his work, which is the editor's job.

I think, right now, there's something of an anti-Carver backlash (similar to the anti-Hemingway backlash I think I perceived about a decade ago). I can agree with the argument that he's perhaps been too influential, inspiring a lot of second and third-rate imitators. But Carver himself isn't responsible for what came after him, and the fact remains that his work-- particularly the stories in _What We Talk About When We Talk About Love_-- was incredible, and will likely be studied for a long time to come.

(He was a pretty good poet, too-- "What the Doctor Said" is a personal favorite).
03:29 PM on 05/14/2010
Lish turned an emo into a zombie.
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MarcEdward
likes all cats more than most people
12:39 PM on 05/14/2010
I'd rather watch an episode of "Lost" than read more of Carver's depressing crap, and I hate lost.
That being said, I'd rather read 10 Carver stories than watch 1 hour of a Sex and the City movie.
Why do people only consider depressing, hopeless stories to be good?
08:48 PM on 05/15/2010
Because so often they are. Something doesn't have to be uplifting to be good literature.
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04:44 PM on 05/20/2010
You can do both or you can do neither. There's a zillion books out there that go unread try one you may enjoy it.
11:22 AM on 05/14/2010
I've read a lot of Carver, and, in general, I like his stories. But I think that without Lish's editing, Carver would have gotten nowhere. And one cannot blame Carver or Lish for the flock of creative writing teachers who tried to force everyone into minimalism. Good editors are partners with authors in creating great literature.

This was an excellent review. Thank you.
10:39 AM on 05/14/2010
Who is reading Raymond Carver? Besides college writing teachers and Am lit profs and their students?

I read his works and taught many of them, but they are generally dreary and not high in either entertainment value, stylistic pleasures, or piercing insights. Okay, some are beautiful stories, but I will never feel the need to read them again, not when so many classic novels beckon and new novels tell me about the world I live in now.

Yes, I'm sure they describe the depressed and alcoholic worldview precisely. Life is short--I don't care to immerse myself in that again. I'd rather read about global warming if I want to be depressed!

If you're not in a university setting, needing to know about "important" 20th c. Am. writers and who they influenced...and you're looking for prose with the qualities I've listed above, you don't have to reread Carver.
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farka
11:49 AM on 05/14/2010
I read Raymond Carver, and have never felt the need for a university setting when reading him. My preference in depressed and alcoholic worldviews is Lowry's, but I appreciate what Carver (and Lish) did. There are a lot of us who don't need to be paid to spend hours a day with good literature. Life would be pretty pointless without it.
02:00 PM on 05/14/2010
Good for you!

Did I say I didn't appreciate them? No.

Did I say I need to be paid to read good lit? No. In fact, I said I'd rather read classic novels, given my druthers.

Life is pointless enough w/o frogmarching yourself through depressing literature a SECOND time. That is what I said.
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Plissken
It tastes like... chicken.
09:56 AM on 05/14/2010
I'm not sure what to make of this. The list of writers with a bad character is endless. Thats why they are writers. I understand chronicling the history but the judgemental tone, is that really necessary? I dont think so. It's that same holier than thou tone I remember from reading David McCullough's Truman bio. He was like a virgin in church about Truman's whiskey constitutional each day.

I'm starting to develop a real dislike for biographers who insist upon condemning their subjects. If the subject is Hitler, ok that's obviously understandable, but this guy is just a short story writer.

Another thing. As far as the Lish vs Carver controversy, ITS THE EDITORS JOB to shape and prune an authors work. Everyone and I mean everyone needs an editor. I'd bet you an ocean liner full of gold that even Shakespeare had editing.

Does Lish deserve credit, of course. He deserves credit for being a great editor. He deserves credit for doing his job, and doing it well. Just ask yourself this question. Would the Carver stories exist AT ALL if there had been only Lish?

And stop with the sanctimony. It's tacky.
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kidjudas
My Governor is not smarter than a 5th grader
09:45 AM on 05/14/2010
As a heavy Carver fan (and if you don't know who Carver is, then perhaps you're too young or you spent too much time at Community College, or both) I suspect a lot of what I liked about the prose had more to do with Lish than Carver. After reading this article I can definitely see an arc where the writing began to "lag" and draw down the pacing. He's a short story writer, and his stories are hard to take in en masse. Start with WHAT WE TALK ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT LOVE and go from there.
02:59 PM on 05/15/2010
"...if you don't know who Carver is, then perhaps you're too young or you spent too much time at Community College, or both."

Why is that?
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Honora
09:07 AM on 05/14/2010
Thank you for the article. I have thought about Carver for years & now will finally get to reading him.