Bestsellers: Girl vs. Woman, Demeaning Or Tired Of Talking About It? (POLL)

In the UK paper The Guardian, Deborah Orr reports that the top five bestsellers on the Times of London list all had "girl" in the title: Steig Larsson Millennium Trilogy ("Girl With..."), Jane Green's "Girl Friday" and Martina Cole's "Hard Girls." In each case, the main character was well over 21, and so Orr raises the question again of woman vs. girl: is one elevating and the other demeaning? Is one boring and the other dynamic? Are we still interested in having the conversation or is it time to move on after 30 years? Let us know what you think in the poll below.

Quick Poll

Does it bother you that big bestsellers about grown women refer to them as girls?

Yes, if she's over 21, she's a woman

Girls just want to have fun and so do I

Who cares?

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Comments

[Chucktheman]

01:03 PM on 06/14/2010

Im a guy so it may sound a bit silly for me to comment on this subject. It seems it would have more to do with who is saying it and how it was meant at the time it was said. With guys the word boy does not mean you are any less of a man if it is said in the correct context. Boy you should have seen size of that tree. On the other hand if someone said "you don't belong in this part of the building boy", that would give it a whole new level of low. My wife is over 45 and she goes out with the girls for lunch. They are the same age. Life is too short to worry too much about it so I hope you enjoy your day (Ladies) : )

[Smithn]

11:47 PM on 06/08/2010

Diva or girl?
Lay, Lady, lay across. . .
Goddess or bitch?
Woman or vixen
witch or witch?

INHO: designations are like porn: 'you know it's wrong when you hear/see it'.

[cookiebee]

11:21 PM on 06/08/2010

Lisbeth Salander, girl.
Erika Berger, woman.

Both fabulous!

[dahpunkster]

10:24 PM on 06/13/2010

fanned ... on third book can't get enough

[The Wandering Geek]

10:50 PM on 06/08/2010

I actually sat here for several minutes trying to figure out what to say about this. I can't believe it's even being discussed. I'm over 21 and I'm a girl, a woman, a female, whatever. Is there some sort of special personality trait or maturity level that makes you not a "girl" anymore when you get older? In literature, sometimes one sounds better over the other. They have different rings to them, as Renshai said below. I can't imagine feeling "demeaned" by someone calling me a girl, although it would obviously depend on the context. It just doesn't make sense to me, even in a competitive, corporate environment, to get upset if you're called a girl. Again it depends on the context. If it's harmless, what's the problem? Aren't you a girl? I guess I have no experience in such an environment, but everybody's different I suppose.

[Sarah Moore]

11:08 AM on 06/09/2010

I agree that it would depend on the context (like most things). Typically I don't care though.

[tablesedge]

05:19 PM on 06/08/2010

It's still wrenching when women refer to themselves or are referred to by men as girls in the workplace. Men are never called boys in the professional world. But in colloquial parlance it seems harmless. Different perspectives, I plead guilty to the latter, but bristled when I was ever called a girl during my business career. Context and hidden agendas?! In terms of book titles, girl does sound younger and more dynamic. An interesting discussion point.

[TheWM]

10:46 PM on 06/08/2010

"Men are never called boys in the professional world."

?? I work in a different professional world, apparently.

[Sarah Moore]

11:10 AM on 06/09/2010

Me too. I even call them "my boys" which is probably not PC at all.

[Renshai]

02:13 PM on 06/08/2010

I don't get too worked up on if the title has girl or woman. Sometimes phrases have more flow using one over the other in the title. I'd rather concern myself with how they portray the women in the book.

[NHkvs]

05:33 PM on 06/08/2010

I don't know what all the fuss is about? Frankly Arianna this is TOO PC. My spouse is Swedish and I hadn't even considered the question. The context of the book is what matters, not JUST the word itself. I personally will walk out of a shop if someone says "HEY LADY!" But that's totally off topic! There are too many books on the "shelf" to get uptight about EVERY little word. I JUST finished "The Girl who Kicked the Hornet's Nest" and watched the Charlie Rose show one the Larsson series with his editor for 1 hour (I saved it on my DVR until I was done)....Personally I collect Sweedish literature and like it, it is dour like Henning Mankell, but culturally different and that I like in a book....Just like I did with with Burnett series that began w/ "Bankock 8"

[Sarah Moore]

11:11 AM on 06/09/2010

I don't think this has anything to do with it being Swedish.

[JudyWren]

02:08 PM on 06/08/2010

As an old girl still waiting for the Equal Rights Amendment to pass, it often makes me crazy when a wait-person greets a table of women with a "Hi Guys, what can I get you?" I look around the table and find not one male. If we quibble about each sexist word in the language, we couldn't speak.

The Girl With.... books are absolutely wonderful, the anti-sexist line that runs through out the story more than justifies the title. Larsson was a wonderful author who died much too early.

[Sarah Moore]

11:14 AM on 06/09/2010

I think "guys" no longer just means boys or men. These days, it's not unusual to call a group of all women (or girls) "guys". At least casually. I wouldn't do it in the business world because there are still people who might be offended by it, but in my casual life? I hear it all the time and I'm sure I do it too.

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:42 AM on 06/08/2010

Does it bother you that big bestsellers about grown women refer to them as girls?

Yes, if she's over 21, she's a woman

Girls just want to have fun and so do I

Who cares?

------------------------

This Poll was poorly written Arianna! Who Cares? is a very poor answer, because it matters a great deal what is written. It's called respect, and we should as a Nation become more clear about this point. Girls just want to have fun and so do I. Huh? What kind of answer is that, I'm a serious person of the Male gender. I want Fun, sure But it usually never happens. Yes, if she's over 21, she's a woman. Well correct me if I'm wrong but LEGALLY a woman is a woman when she's 18... at least that's when a man can legally mate with her, right?

The answers should be a Curt, yes or no.

As to the question, I don't believe that Girl is a bad word for a women to hear. Girls are young, but I can see an 80 year old man calling his wife Girl in that attractive manner. I don't think women should get too upset about this. Girl isn't a bad word!

[NHkvs]

08:49 PM on 06/08/2010

The title of MANY books nuse GIRL...I'll be be 50 tomorrow and I do not object at all...better tan sweetie..or hun! Reference other books "The GIRL who loved Cat dancing" etc. I 1st read the book in Swedish and the translation IS correct...ashame Larswon died at the age I'll be tomorrow!!!! I'd rather comment on the series content and whether it is a "classic, as they say, rather than this....I am a liberal femenist who does NOT object...

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:10 PM on 06/08/2010

Well, happy birthday to you! Here's hoping you get 50 more, GIRL! LOL.

[dahpunkster]

10:28 PM on 06/13/2010

loves being a called girl, even though I'm not anymore.

[TheWM]

11:09 AM on 06/08/2010

Some personal experience: in 1989 I met a woman -- aged 18 or 19 at the time -- who insisted on being called a woman and not a girl. Several times I forgot her preference and accidentally called her a girl, until she got so angry that she screamed at me, and sort of seared it into my psyche, and since then I automatically refer to full-grown female humans as women.

But I disagree with PC language rules. I said to this woman, Have I ever treated you disrespectfully? Have I ever behaved as if I thought you were a child and not an adult? She said, No. To me, that's the main thing, and sticks and stones will break my bones, and PC language rules give "bad" words more power, not less. Placing taboos on things always gives them more power. I won't go out of my way to insult anyone by using a word to describe them which they find hurtful or demeaning, but I strongly disagree with the whole PC approach to language.

Postscript to my friendship with that woman: we lost contact in 1990. She was a huge fan of female rockers, especually Sinead O'Conner, she was considering shaving her head a la Sinead. And in 1992 O'Conner released an album entitled Am I Not Your Girl, and the whole Grrrrl Power rock movement started to get big, and I must admit I laughed. I've always wondered how my friend reacted to all of that.

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:48 AM on 06/08/2010

I used to work for a gay orginization in los angeles and was in a meeting with quite a few lesbians. For some reason I was rambling a bit and used the word 'Gal' or some such a few times. You should have heard them as they jumped on me! I quickly made sure not to call anyone anything like that again, I was simply unaware that Women would dislike the word Gal, is all. But being an intelligent person I didn't want to add to the rage out there and corrected my thoughts.

[abliss2379]

03:57 PM on 06/08/2010

I HATE "gal." A friend of mine uses it when referring to a group of us, and I have all I can do not jump down her throat. Girl doesn't bother me, but gal ...

[Sarah Moore]

11:21 AM on 06/09/2010

I still can't get over the women who insist that they are really "womyn". I firmly believe in the power of words, but come on, there is such a thing as taking it too far. This is the kind of change that just draws attention to the fact that "man" was in the word "woman" in the first place. I feel like most people would never even think of it that way if they weren't making a big deal out of it. It seems anti-male as opposed to pro-female. Shoot, what's the PC word for "female"?

[Flygande Jakob]

08:55 AM on 06/08/2010

I don't know if it's a generational thing, or just something with the people I talk to, but nobody I know uses the word 'woman' or even 'man'. It sounds so official or sterile or academic... Everyone I know uses 'girl' and 'guy' in their place. So I have no idea what this gripe is about.

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:51 AM on 06/08/2010

Or Boy, which can get you into a lot of trouble is you are say in a Black bar in Watts. The inflection is most often racist at all, but can be percieved that way according to the Media at the time.

[BrooklynChef]

01:45 PM on 06/08/2010

agreed. I always use 'girls' and 'guys.'

[gabby09]

04:41 AM on 06/08/2010

I wonder if this is related to the American culture's worship of youth? The word "women" seems reserved for self-help titles - serious stuff. "Girl", on the other hand, is a reference made even for women of a certain age in this culture.

Seen from Europe, the US seems to be in its adolescent phase as a culture. References to "women" in titles is not at all unusual. The use of the word "girls" for anyone having launched into adulthood? Not so much.

It does seem worth a moment's reflection.

[General Armchair]

10:09 AM on 06/08/2010

Excuse me? How would a story in the UK Guardian about the top five titles on the London Times bestseller list have anything to do with the "adolescent phase" of U.S. "culture"?????

Or did I completely miss your point (quite possible!).....?

[Tulka2]

01:43 AM on 06/08/2010

I've only read Larsson's first two books of the titles you mention. With this article you prove to the Swedes that Americans can be just as humorless as any Scandihoovian.

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:54 AM on 06/08/2010

ha, you must first laugh at yourself before you can laugh at others is what you're saying here, right?

[Commonwealth]

11:19 PM on 06/07/2010

Lisbeth Salander is chronologically a woman, but she is often mistaken for a teenage girl and as the Millennium Trilogy opens, she is emotionally stunted by all that has happened to her. So much emphasis on "woman" vs "girl" derives from the Jim Crow practice of calling African-American men "boy" in the most demeaning fashion. The feminist movement appropriated that sensitivity: If a boy is immature and unable to care for himself and a man is mature and independent, it must be the same for a girl and a woman. If African-Americans had the right to be sensitive to being regarded as incapable of independence, then women figured they had the same right. More even than the word "man", however, "woman" suggests biology as fundamental to the person's identity. Man can suggest biology, but it can also suggest human-kindness, which is an ethical/spiritual dimension that offers to transcend biology. At any rate, in the context of the books, "girl" seems more appropriate than woman, since the stories track Salander's emotional development.

[niceguysneverfinish]

11:56 AM on 06/08/2010

",,,derives from the Jim Crow practice of calling African-American men "boy" in the most demeaning fashion."

----------------

Slavery ruined the Boy word for Black Americans! Unless you are an actual Boy, of course!

[Gronkie]

11:14 PM on 06/07/2010

The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest is the third installment in a series from Sweden whose first book was called The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. However, the original Swedish title of the book was Men Who Hate Women.

Does that lend any depth to the discussion?

[MercedesGabriella]

12:16 AM on 06/08/2010

Stieg Larsson's trilogy about Lisbet Salander was girlyfied in the English translation. The first book, "Män som hatar kvinnor", or "Men Who Hate Women", became "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo", and book number three, "Luftslottet som sprängdes", or "The Castle in the Air That Was Blown Up" became "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest". The Swedish title of book number two is "Flickan som lekte med elden", or "The Girl Who Played with Fire", because it goes back to the time when Lisbeth was a young girl who tried to burn up her abuse father by throwing matches at him - after she'd doused him with gasoline.

[Gronkie]

01:10 AM on 06/08/2010

I read the first one, and it was great. I'm looking forward to the others, no matter what they're called. Maybe it's just my American sensibilities, but I prefer the English (American) titles. Frankly, I doubt I would have read a book called Men Who Hate Women, and I don't think it describes the book very well either, especially since the main male character really seems to like women. The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo was a much more compelling title for me.

[Doctor ME]

09:37 PM on 06/07/2010

Some people have too much time on their hands......

[onedayaat]

01:48 AM on 06/08/2010

so........ reading is a waste of that time?

[Doctor ME]

02:12 AM on 06/09/2010

Uh, NO. I am an avid reader. Please refer to the title of the article....I was simply stating that debating the use of girl v woman is a waste of time...

[niceguysneverfinish]

12:00 PM on 06/08/2010

Yes, you'd be talking about someone like me. Get me a Job in a nice High-Rise somewhere with my own office and underlings and then I will change. Until then...