Presbyterian Leaders Approve Gay Clergy Policy

MINNEAPOLIS — Presbyterian leaders will not redefine marriage in their church constitution to include same-sex couples.

The surprise vote to shelve the marriage issue at the Presbyterian general assembly late Thursday passed by a slim margin of 51 percent.

The vote means that the definition of marriage will remain as between a man and a woman for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) while the denomination continues to study the issue for at least the next two years.

Earlier in the day, Presbyterian delegates had voted to allow non-celibate gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy. But that vote won't become the law of the church unless it's approved by ratification votes of a majority of the 173 U.S. presbyteries.

Comments

[scottyknows]

07:27 PM on 07/17/2010

As usual, people rush toward rebellion rather than understanding.

Why not ask why the union of one man and one woman is such a holy union to God? Critical thinking only damages the ground you walk on.

[MatthewRobertson]

09:13 PM on 07/17/2010

People RUSH towards rebellion? Buddy, I've spent YEARS trying to understand why God would condemn me for something beyond my choosing and paid a heavy price for it.

The union of one man and one woman is holy. But so can the union between one man and another man. Or one woman and another woman.

[MatthewRobertson]

09:26 PM on 07/17/2010

and as usual, people rush towards judgement rather than understanding.

[MatthewRobertson]

04:44 PM on 07/14/2010

Why is it that King David can have multiple wives and countless of concubines and be considered a "man after God's own heart" and I want to marry one guy and its condemnation for me?

Hypocrisy is one of the biggest flaws in Christianity.

[elijah24]

07:10 AM on 07/15/2010

If we're gonna rank the flaws, I actually wouldn't put hypocricy that high on the list. Though it is certainly one of the most obvious.

[KennebunkportIndependent]

08:11 AM on 07/15/2010

He also kissed 'his brother 'Jonathan, and praised the love between them as being greater than that of love between man and woman. Does that bother the fundamentalists? Or will they argue that it was a societal norm in those days for men to kiss................oops!

[Brandino43]

01:36 PM on 07/15/2010

The stretches one makes to try to justify sinful behavior. As a fundy, I have no problems with a man loving another man in a way that is greater [or different] than a man loves a woman. I love my dad and my brother quite deeply, but have no sexual desire for either. I love my male friends [including the gay ones] that is non-sexual. Who's got the next distortion and abuse of scripture to justify their weak positions?

[William D Simpson]

04:23 AM on 07/14/2010

All of Scripture, from Genesis' account of creation, (He created them male and female), the Levitical law condemning homosexuality, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, to Jesus' definition of marriage between man and woman, and the Apostles writings in the New Testament that again, condemns effeminate, lesbian and homosexual practitioners to an eternal separation from God, is irrefutable evidence of Gods intended purpose of creation.

God is not moved by what you think is the way things are or should be. Gods law has already determined His requirement of your life's witness, (REPENT) and should that witness prove your contempt of God, He will honor your decision with eternal damnation. All of you, on this blog, had better wake up to reality...

It's evident that America is now judged by God, based upon the rise of sin among its people. Good and wholesome is viewed as intolerant and bad for a postmodern, progressive culture, while everything that's wrong is being taught to be virtuous and right.

Romans Chapter 1 is the defining definition of America today. A people abandoned by God.

[elijah24]

02:57 PM on 07/14/2010

"It's evident that America is now judged by God, based upon the rise of sin among its people"

Thats odd. We have better medical technology than ever, which means people are living longer. No punishment there. When our country was founded, half of the children never reached puberty. Not true today. Our economy is in the tank, but not as bad as it was in the 30's, when people were moral. No that doesn't make sense either. We are in two wars, but we've always been in wars. No judgment there either. I'm confused. Where is this evidence of which you speak?
Your book of Genisis was written long after anyone who could have possibly witnessed the beginning of humanity could possibly have been alive. So that account is what we call "mythology" or "superstition". Even if the accounts of the Bible are taken to be true, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, had nothing to do with homosexuality. It was about rape. Don't take my word for it. Read the story yourself.
You can judge us all you like, but clearly you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Your god, as described in the same books of the Old Testament in which he condemns gays, is a tyrant. A kid with a magnifying glass. Show me the red-letters in which Jesus condemns homosexuality, or homosexuals.

...Don't worry, I'll wait.

[MatthewRobertson]

04:50 PM on 07/14/2010

I saw your comment on your other post. I guess it was deleted? But I want to say thank you and that I too have had loved ones take their own life because of what they spent their entire life hearing in the pews of church. It has certainly crossed my mind growing up and there were a few times in which I was sure the end was on its way. I'm sorry for your loss. My experience with homosexuality has led me to take a more objective view of the Bible and I have encountered morality issues as well. I guess when a person encounters one issue in the bible, they begin to encounter so many more.

Peace be with you.

[William D Simpson]

10:10 PM on 07/14/2010

The evidence is you... Justifying sin, evil, wickedness, lawlesness, to appease a condemning conscience. Within you is the knowledge of God, but the fallen nature of humanity does not want to have to submit to the truth of Gods authority, because in doing so, the person can no longer satisify the desires that bring temporal, fleshly pleasure.

As to Jesus condemning homosexuality, these passages of scripture are:
Genesis 2:24
Matthew 19:15
Mark 10:7
and all of the others, that the Spirit of God influenced the writers of the Holy Scriptures to pen.

All that Jesus needed to say was what His intended purpose of creation is. Anything other than that, is unholy, therefore it's anti-Christ, which is anti-God. Should you live your life now in disobedience to Gods law, God will give your eternal spririt over to an everlasting separation from His presence. And, according to Scripture, a conscience that will never forget that Jesus is both Lord and God, and that you chose to reject the knowledge of His truth.

Here-in lyeth a lesson. Are you teachable?, or has God withdrawn His Spirit from you? I pray, for your salvation, that it's the former.

[MatthewRobertson]

03:56 PM on 07/14/2010

Levitical Law condemns eating shellfish and wearing garments made with two different fibers. The old testament is filled with approved incest. Ezekiel 16:49-50: " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." No where does it say that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for its homosexuality. Where exactly does Jesus define Marriage? "effiminate" means to have traits of that pertaining to a female...so guys who are raised by women and has a limp wrist and talks like a woman would talk...I guess God is going to be sending them to hell.

I find it interesting how so many people consider the bible the "word of God" when it was put together by man. There were many many books, but man said "These are the only ones considered scripture."

Romans 1 is interesting because it explicitly says that my homosexuality is a punishment from God for not worshpping him properly, and at the same time, if you continue to read chapter two (which most people end their thought on the matter at the end of chapter one), it continues to say "so who you are you to Judge?"

[nomad27]

09:32 PM on 07/13/2010

Will the Government give these guys a bailout when there numbers dwindle and have no tithing to sutain themselves?

[MatthewRobertson]

04:46 PM on 07/13/2010

I grew up in church and for years, I had to sit in Church while I listened to the preacher proclaim that gay and lesbian people were abnormal and an abomination. Little did he know, I KNEW I was gay very early on. So, as I would pray and pray and pray that "god" would heal me and take this away, my self esteem became crap. and the only thing that I could think of was that God was either
A. Not listening.
B. Didn't care.
C. Not there after all.

The only one that allowed me to live with any peace and self worth was C.

So, as other children grow up in Churches and have to sit there hearing this same garbage, I for one, applaud the Presbyterian Church for finally standing up for what is true, not just what an ancient text claims.

[conscioushope]

05:24 PM on 07/14/2010

Matthew~

No one should have to listen to what you had to listen to. That is a "sin" if ever there was one....to make anyone feel that they are undeserving of love.

I am a member of a group called "Breaking the Silence" with the United Methodist Church. This issue is a hot battle in my denomination. I will help fight for LGBT folks from now until there is not need!

GOD BLESS YOU!

[Ioan Lightoller]

08:15 AM on 07/24/2010

And may God/dess bless you and "Breaking the Silence". Your prophetic witness is needed now more than ever.

[Jannella]

08:07 PM on 07/17/2010

I am a member of the Presbyterian Church and am very proud of this.

[Pumadam]

01:12 PM on 07/13/2010

When you stand for nothing, no one will stand with you eventually. Even if you disagree with a strict biblical stance on Christianity, the numbers bear out that the communities of faith that hold a firm stance on biblical theology and doctrine are seeing rapid growth, while the more "liberalized" communities are slowly fading away. We are intrinsically made to seek out truth, and when a denomination conducts itself in such a way to indicate that truth is fluid and adaptable to contemporary trends, we at the very least, subconsciously reject its validity. Because if this "thing" isn't true anymore since it is no longer "convenient", then pretty much none of it must be reliable.....

[MatthewRobertson]

04:35 PM on 07/13/2010

My sexuality has nothing to do with things being "convenient."

You're numbers argument is a logical fallace called the Appeal to Common Practice, if your "numbers argument" is even true. For giggles, let's say you are right, and more fundamental, conservative churches are growing in number, that in no way is evidence that you are right. I recall a period in Christian history where Slavery, Segregation, The Crusades, Passion Plays, etc were commonplace. Does that mean the Church was standing on biblical doctrine, although scripture was used to justify every one of those?

[conscioushope]

05:25 PM on 07/14/2010

You are right, Matthew....


Folks like Puma are actually uncaring legalists.

[elijah24]

03:43 PM on 07/14/2010

TRUTH may be static. MORALITY is not. Social norms change over time. If you believe that a 2000 year old book contains absolute truth, in spite of its many self-contradictions; here are a few things I assume you believe to be true:
>Slavery is acceptable practice. (as sanctioned in Leviticus 25:44-46
>Sex slavery is also fine (as approved in Numbers 31:7-18)
>Rape victims must either be stoned, or forced to live as the wife of her attacker. (according to Deuteronomy 22:23-29)
>Human sacrifice is a good bet to bring good luck in war (as it was in Judges chapter 11)

Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Please tell me how you defend these positions.

[conscioushope]

05:27 PM on 07/14/2010

elijah~

Thanks for your good words!

Indeed! the fundies "pick and choose"!

[Pumadam]

01:08 PM on 07/13/2010

The Presbyterian Church (USA) will continue its rapid decline and shrinking. The reason these more and more non-biblical decisions are passing is due to the fact that people are leaving the PCUSA in droves. I am in no way surprised by this decision. The church I grew up in left this denomination 10 years ago when they began to see the writing on the wall. It is interesting to do a demographic study of PCUSA churches in agreement with this decision and those in dissent. In general, those in agreement are shrinking in numbers and per capita giving. Those in disagreement are exploding in growth and giving.

[Jced]

07:47 PM on 07/11/2010

WWJD????

[MatthewRobertson]

04:36 PM on 07/13/2010

I think Jesus would sit and carry a conversation with homosexuals while warmly accepting them into his fathers house.

[Salty 2]

07:56 PM on 07/17/2010

Jesus would love him , address his sin and ask if he wanted to be cleansed of it. If this person would not repent then Jesus would would most defenately not allow him into his fathers house. Gods house is sin free and closed to all who are not covered by the blood of Jesus. Sin is sin. And man does not make the rules.

[cmj05sc]

11:32 AM on 07/10/2010

These issues always get voted on and the conservatives always lose then appear shocked when the resolution passes.

[Ergon]

09:12 AM on 07/10/2010

Once again the Presbyterians vote on the right side of history.

[kwinter]

10:17 PM on 07/10/2010

Once again there are some Xians so embarrassed by what their buybull says ... that they are willing to ignore some parts of it, in order to "appear" to be not quite as backwards as some of their fellow Xians.

[bsabato]

02:46 PM on 07/11/2010

Sigh. Get over your smug sense of superiority. As is typical of anti-religionists, you'd prefer to make overly simplistic, anti-intellectual, ill-informed, ignorant statements about religious issues you obviously know nothing about. Why don't you, as many of the Presbyterians who voted to ordain gay clergy and many other Christians who take a more nuanced view of scripture, actually try to engage in conversation and learn with mutual respect from those you disagree with rather than spouting bumper-sticker aphorisms to demonize and degenerate all people of faith?

[GodIs]

08:13 AM on 07/10/2010

God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked. Christians are advised to offer Jesus to people unconvinced of their sinfulness. It is our duty to judge rightly because we are His representatives. We must remember to be careful to remain true to God's Word, for we are not judging according to our own personal convictions, but according to The Truth.

If believers do not judge, they share partly responsibility for the sinner's eternal misery and suffering. It is a Christian's obligation to judge!

God is love.

[Huffyhuzzy]

03:55 AM on 07/12/2010

In essense this is partly correct and partly incorrect in terms of insightfulness and understanding, in my opinion. Clinical psychologists and people of great understanding and compassion are careful in their thinking about themselves and others and generally prefer not to use the term
"wicked" for the majority of people, regardless of sexual orientation; and they are quick to point out--as was Jesus--the psychological projection going on when someone designates himself or herself as "righteous" while acsribing "wickedness" to others. Jesus: "Your righteousness is as filthy rags!" What we view as evil in others is often lack of understanding, ignorance, youth and inexperience, psychopathology, socialization different from our own, etc. And we are not to harshly "judge" others in the sense of condeming them but are best to define that term as quietly "discerning" where they are coming from, what they are about, how they got that way,
what can be done to help them if they request help, etc. Jesus: "My yoke is easy and my burden light." The "salt" of the earth is to be like "leaven." That is closer to God as Love.

[KennebunkportIndependent]

09:19 AM on 07/13/2010

Ted Haggard loved playing judge. Until he got caught.

[Randy Shepherd]

12:58 AM on 07/10/2010

LOL, sex out side of marriage is wrong, unless you are gay clergy, then we would rather see you not be celebate, than to be married. LOL

[julian101]

02:53 PM on 07/10/2010

Hay, its hard to make this stuff fit any logical sense.

They have a book to deal with

[Huffyhuzzy]

04:05 AM on 07/12/2010

There is lots in that book that makes logical sense, even about this issue.

[Huffyhuzzy]

04:04 AM on 07/12/2010

Great observation!

[Godweiser]

08:58 PM on 07/09/2010

I hope Presbyterian churches consider keeping a sharp lookout for the kooks, because you know when the right wingers get thwarted, they start talking violent smack. Then some guy, often because he's messed in the head and wants to impress the radio show guy of his choice shows up and mows down people in the middle of a service.

This country is in the throes of a social upheaval thanks to people who are violently intolerant to dissent. Progressives and all other freedom lovers need to watch out for these marginalized culture warriors as they decide all is lost and go on the big spree.

[LGwalt]

09:37 PM on 07/09/2010

Any examples of "thwarted conservatives...mowing down people in the middle of a service" because their denominational leaders allowed gay clergy, or gay marriage?

It's the leftists who are violent - just look at what happened at the G20 Summit. Look at the SEIU goons who beat up someone for speaking out against Obama. It was Obama who said "get in their face." "They bring a knife to a fight, we bring a gun."

[Godweiser]

09:57 PM on 07/09/2010

Ah, selective memory. I suppose it's pointless to reference you to the Knoxville incident, where the man with the gun had a stack of Michael Savage books in the basement?

And yes, you guys use that "Librulz r the vilint unz" all the time, but I notice that in many cases, conservative violence is often a government function. I suppose you've wildly redefined violence to not include teabaggers assaulting old men and spitting at congressmen while calling them racial epithets or walking into churches and offing doctors during services. I'd imagine like so many other things, the real rate of violence differs little and involves fanatics on either side. Not that you want to hear reality, you want to sit around and go, "Librulz are the sole source of all mah ills..." as a convenient scapegoat for your miseries.

But as you will, as you will. Far be it for me to imperil the lives of your neighbors by bringing you back to reality.

[vonric]

01:41 AM on 07/10/2010

yep, us lefties will continue to carry our guns unless George Bush tries to wrest them from our palsied hands......

I assume we will now see a conspiracy theory behind the murderous actions at abortion clinics, the bombing in Atlanta, the actions in Oklahoma City, and other leftie violence?

[Huffyhuzzy]

04:06 AM on 07/12/2010

It works the other way around, too. Ever heard of Act Up?

[mggwa]

04:31 PM on 07/09/2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith

"The Church of Scotland had recently overthrown its bishops and adopted presbyterianism (see Bishops' Wars)."

"The peasants have always been revolting, now they are rebelling!" (Dragonheart)

What a way to establish a church.

[david penner]

03:00 PM on 07/09/2010

If you're using the Bible as a template, then homosexual acts are clearly contrary to God's will, as they are mentioned in a negative light in numerous passages in both the OT and NT.

But if you don't accept the Bible as God's Word, hey, go to town.

[Hardyman1966]

04:00 PM on 07/09/2010

We are talking about a book that was written by flawed, human men, right? When we thought the Sun revolved around the Earth?

Either way, once again, another example of using religion as a weapon of division, clearly missing the point.

[rocsalt]

09:42 PM on 07/09/2010

No, were talking about a book that has withstood the test of man for over 6000 years. Why is it that when you say that "homosexuality is wrong" or "the bible says homosexuality is wrong" suddenly it's a weapon. Presbyterians are supposed to represent "the God of the bible". The old and new testements say "it's wrong". So, quit using hate speech everytime someone disagrees with you. By the way, study the book you hate so much or don't comment about it.

[Geoffreys]

07:44 PM on 07/09/2010

By that logic, you also oppose divorce on the same grounds, right? And I suppose you believe firmly in the death penalty for adulterers.

If you pretend to think of the Bible as a literal set of rules, you have to follow them all. You can't pick and choose.

[rocsalt]

09:43 PM on 07/09/2010

As I told someone else who posted an ignorant argument...study the bible or don't make stupid comments. Really, your comment is ignorant.

[rocsalt]

09:45 PM on 07/09/2010

Don't be ignorant. You obviously don't know the bible.