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Experts See Trouble Ahead For Developed World

DAN PERRY   09/ 3/10 01:37 PM ET   AP

Italy Conference
Israeli President Shimon Peres, center, arrives for the "Intelligence on the World, Europe, and Italy" economic forum, at Villa d'Este, in Cernobbio, on Lake Como, Italy, Friday, Sept. 3, 2010. (AP Photo/Luca Bruno)

CERNOBBIO, Italy — Is the global economy out of the woods? Two years after near-meltdown, with the U.S. looking sluggish, equity markets groggy and Europeans fighting a debt crisis, experts gathered in Italy offered a generally gloomy outlook – especially for the United States and much of the industrialized world.

The doomsayers were led by New York University economist Nouriel Roubini, who warned in booming tones that "there is a significant risk of a double-dip recession in the United States" as well as in Japan and many European countries.

Some of the assembled experts and leaders at the annual Ambrosetti Forum on the shores of Lake Como were somewhat more upbeat: economist Edwin Truman, a senior fellow of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, predicted that "the most likely global outlook is subpar growth."

But most appeared to agree on a sobering array of basic problems standing in the way of true recovery:

_ Many of the growth drivers in place since the collapse of Lehman Brothers are winding up or have ended, including not only the massive stimulus spending but tax breaks, schemes such as the "cash for clunkers" program and – for some countries like Russia – high commodity prices.

_ The stimulus deemed necessary to jump-start moribund economies soon causes deficits and debt, upsetting the markets enough to spur austerity – which undermines growth.

_ Most of the world's growth stems from a developing world led by China – which is so dependent on exports that it needs the West to continue to buy, and so will suffer if recovery in the rich world proves short-lived.

_ Europe continues to lose competitiveness partly because of the euro, which – for all the fretting over its dip earlier this year at the height of the Greek debt crisis – remains high in purchasing price parity terms versus the U.S. dollar.

_ The sector that is widely seen as the spark of the global recession – U.S. real estate – has not recovered, with house-buying flat and the mortgage market, with its related financial instruments, essentially still in ruins.

_ The jobs picture is not improving and in parts of the developed world – such as Spain, with some 20 percent unemployment – it is disastrous.

The warnings come amid mixed news on indicators. The European Central Bank raised its growth projections Thursday and its president, Jean-Claude Trichet, said recession was "not in the cards." But the bank said the situation remained uncertain and that it would keep measures to supply banks with additional credit in place until the end of the year.

The U.S. unemployment rate rose in August for the first time in four months as hiring by private employers proved insufficient to keep pace with a large increase in the number of people looking for work. The Labor Department said Friday that companies did add a net total 67,000 new jobs last month, down from July's upwardly revised total of 107,000.

But more than a half-million Americans resumed their job searches, which drove up the jobless rate to 9.6 percent from 9.5 percent in July – a figure above the rate in Britain and Germany.

"I see a very weak labor market," said Roubini, who gained celebrity for predicting the global collapse of 2008 when others were still celebrating the boom times. He noted noting unemployment is close to 10 percent and almost 17 percent when including discouraged workers or partially employed ones.

He puts the chance of recession at 40 percent or more – a position he has staked in recent weeks – and said even weak growth would still feel like a recession.

"The U.S. has to create 150,000 every month in the private sector just to stabilize the rate and prevent it from rising," he said. "We'd have to create 300,000 jobs every month for the next three years just to bring back the level of employment to before this recession started," Roubini said.

"Nobody ... believes the U.S. is going to create any time any amount of jobs like that," he said.

And even that wouldn't be enough when taking into account the young people entering the labor market, he said.

Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson noted that since 2001 the United States has seen its debt-to-GDP ratio double to 66 percent and that it may well be headed toward the danger zone of 100 percent. "This is a completely unsustainable fiscal policy," said Ferguson. "Pretty soon the U.S. will be spending more on debt service than national security. ... That's a tipping point for any global power."

Americans "just have to go down in their living standards" after years in which their living standards soared in part based on foreign credit which is no longer there," said University of Munich economics professor Hans-Werner Sinn. Jacob Frenkel, Chairman of JP Morgan Chase International, urged the United States to rein in entitlements as part of a "political deal" that recognizes reality.

Chairing a panel, CNBC anchor Maria Bartiromo drew laughs by challenging the scowling Roubini to come up with "any good news."

He offered that "emerging economies have high potential growth."

But even that comes with a caveat: Roubini warned that world growth leader China was too dependent on exports to the struggling West and predicted that within a year its economic growth will be overtaken by India, a huge nation much more reliant on its domestic market for development.

The leading Chinese delegate to the forum, Cheng Siwei, seemed to agree with the criticism. "We must change our investment pattern from investment driven to relying more on domestic consumption," said Cheng, a former top Chinese official who chairs the China Soft-Science Research Society among other positions.

What about Greece, whose near-default four months ago rattled the nerves of investors around the globe?

"Greece will not make it," said Sinn. He said the world can either subsidize Athens indefinitely, force a degree of austerity that actually risks "civil war," or – in what he suggested was the least bad option – encourage Greece to restore its drachma currency despite the domestic banking collapse that could well result.

Sinn noted that bond spreads – the difference between the cost of borrowing for troubled countries such as Greece and solid ones such as Germany – have swiftly returned to the startling levels that preceded the Greek bailout in May.

Truman ended his remarks on a high note, noting that in recent quarters' "U.S. productivity increase has been significant." In the second recent quarter, productivity dropped 1.8 percent.

But higher productivity, while good for companies' bottom lines, is also a reflection of the stagnant labor market and the shrinkage of payrolls as firms hope to produce as much as before with fewer and more productive staff.

In perhaps an illustration of that psychology, several hundred business leaders at the forum were asked for their projections on their own companies' prospects. Voting electronically, some 70 percent predicted a rise in turnover by the end of 2010 and almost half predicted a rise in their firms' investment.

But less than a third saw a chance for new hiring; almost half saw no change – and about a quarter predicted even more reductions.

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09:21 PM on 09/06/2010
"Experts"! Pffft! Where were they 3, 5 , or even 10 years ago? Everybody is an "expert" come monday morning.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
weekendpartier
I need some money!
07:47 PM on 09/06/2010
Civil war in Greece? Now that's epic!
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guveqzero
Inventor and Innovator
12:52 PM on 09/06/2010
The experts are not experts at all. They are people that get paid to say what they were taught. And what they were taught, was wrong. Our debt base society is crumbling under its own weight. It's time to reset debt or make it irrelevant­. The experts will do neither.
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10:30 AM on 09/06/2010
boy do they have the edit button screwed down on this one!!!!!!!­!!!
02:09 AM on 09/06/2010
Don't buy crap you don't need. Support local work and products. Help those who can't help themselves­. Buy used goods, not new. Stop spending money on things that will never make you happy. Take a walk, read a book, befriend a stranger. Stop living a lie, and start caring about the world around you.
12:56 AM on 09/06/2010
This quote from the article, 'Americans "just have to go down in their living standards"­...' was predicted long ago if the world went to a global economy. I believe Walter Mondale said that when he campaigned for the Presidenti­al nomination and people didn't want to hear it so that probably cost him.

Globalizat­ion if it is the only game in town needs revision because it is a new game and shouldn't be based on the economics of old. If you take supply and demand global and make countries dependent on others to survive how is the common person anywhere to survive if a crisis hits and there is not the capability to produce them in their own country? Face it, the rich are in control, buy and sell government­s, prices and consumers. The consumers are just viewed as collateral damage to the money making. Do you think the Bible says it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle for nothing?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
macweenie
02:24 AM on 09/06/2010
I'm guessing that if we grind them all up fine enough that we can pass rich people through the eye of a needle rather easily. I'd never grind up a camel though.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
PostModernGuy
12:03 AM on 09/06/2010
Maybe I'm looking at this naively, but wasn't it a spike in oil prices that drove the economy into it's downward spiral? From what I recall, it was that which caused people to start to default on their mortgages, which then caused the housing bubble to burst.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
weekendpartier
I need some money!
07:58 PM on 09/06/2010
What?! It was the housing bubble that started this all! The foreclosur­es started to pick in 2006. Which continued throughout 2007. Then, a credit crisis occurred in August 2008 and continues through today. I suggest you read a good summary here:
http://en.­wikipedia.­org/wiki/T­imeline_of­_the_Unite­d_States_h­ousing_bub­ble#2001_-_20­06

People started defaulting on their loans before the crash. It wasn't caused by a spike in the oil prices. Banks were loaded up on mortgage debt by a ratio of 30:1 to deposits - another way of saying this for every 1000 dollars in deposits, the average bank had 30,000 out in loans in the sub prime mortgages based on a belief that home prices would continue to go up and up and up forever and ever = furthermor­e, most of those homeowners then took out second mortgages on their homes and spend the money on credit cards!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
weekendpartier
I need some money!
08:02 PM on 09/06/2010
Causes of the Housing Bubble:
http://en.­wikipedia.­org/wiki/C­auses_of_t­he_United_­States_hou­sing_bubbl­e

Another good summary = thanks to Wikipedia - And yes, I know that Wiki is not always the most accurate, but that's why you have to do research and read the footnotes!­!!
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11:50 PM on 09/05/2010
I'll rail on any congress member that even thinks about extending the Bush tax cuts for the super rich....bu­t I like the idea of tax cuts for business..­..BUT...an­d the big BUT...in order to get the big tax cuts they agree NOT to send American jobs over seas! (and are held accountabl­e...i.e. they have to pay up if they renege!) Businesses that do send large numbers of jobs over seas should be made to pay higher taxes or a tax penalty. There should be a new initiative in government to spur creating, designing and building things in this country...­.whether it's attached to new energy or some other innovative new market. Am I being completely naive here? Too protection­ist? In an ideal future global world where the cost of living, etc. are about the same, we would not have these problems, but how are we going to insure that not all American jobs (or industrial­ized nations jobs) are not shipped over seas to less $ economies? Or is the “first world” just screwed for the time being?
11:57 PM on 09/05/2010
It would be a lot easier to sell that idea to the shareholde­rs if the Fed corp tax rate was 20% as it in Asia instead of 35% as it is here. The US just cannot compete with a tax rate that high.
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12:13 AM on 09/06/2010
I understand that to a point. But what are they...the Chinese for instance..­. getting on their end that the US is not that they can forgo higher tax rates? Preferenti­al treatment from the US? How does that do us (average Americans.­..not just corporatii­ons) any good?
Obviously tough to compete on a worker wage scale. I don't mind the idea of tax breaks for business..­..but I like the idea of tax breaks with some "strings attached"

M.
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03:00 PM on 09/08/2010
NO TAX BREAK for corporatio­ns! Unless they can guarantee that they will hire a certain number of American workers within a certain time period. If they ship jobs over seas then they need to be made to pay stiff penalties.
11:40 PM on 09/05/2010
Experts see trouble ahead? So do the rest of us and we have watched it occurring for quite some time. (Way to catch up in the last inning!)
AlPal3
Had Enough? Vote Democratic
10:39 PM on 09/05/2010
As a conservati­ve, I'm voting straight Democrat this fall because the party of Abe Lincoln has been hijacked.
11:58 PM on 09/05/2010
And this will improve things how?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
macweenie
02:30 AM on 09/06/2010
It will keep the Republican­s from burning down the country for a few more years. The Democrats aren't doing a great job but the Republican­s are just a wrecking crew in Brooks Brothers suits.
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04:16 AM on 09/07/2010
Ike, Teddy, and Abe would all probably agree with you!

Even though I disagree with them on most issues, I use to have respect for individual­s with morals and principles­!

I can no longer find conservati­ves that are not sold out anarchists and/or fanatics without a conscience­!

I think there are likely many more like yourself!
10:36 PM on 09/05/2010
You all are elegant writers almost like a dissertati­on for your PHD were as I am the one you pick on for [poor spelling bad grammer and no punctuatio­n... But I don't see the results from your lofty vantage point creating any semblance of change on the horizon how bout just pushing yourself away from your computer and get on you feet and show me how all your advantages that I have been shorted on have been effective except as a safety valve for you... may be the safety valve should be wired down so you build up sufficient pressure to blow... maybe than something will happen to cause the start of some change and be a mentor of why I should get me som edgy ca tion to be more effective in my ranting
10:26 PM on 09/05/2010
Maybe this will convince our politician­s to work together.
09:14 PM on 09/05/2010
Good, we deserve it! After all the exploitati­on of weaker countries, $.05 per hour shoe manufactur­ers who have never seen a plate of meat, and the trumped up wars, it's about time we were brought down a notch!

Right, Libs?
08:34 PM on 09/05/2010
@flossophy
"Based on what I've read, I don't think Europeans have a clear understand­ing of the American system.... Seriously.­.. what big government lefty country would accurately teach about a successful economic / political system that restrains the power of the central government­?"

You already showed - by the terms you use, by ignoring the data available, by the way you try to suggest that Europe is but one big socialist Hodge-Podg­e - that you also don't have any clear understand­ing who we are and where we come from. Which is fine as long as it serves to exchange arguments instead of near- religious ideologies­.
For example: France has a true central government­. The President is very powerful. Germany, on the other hand, is very federal. While the Chancellor will always have the majority of the Parliament behind him/her, the Upper House (Bundesrat­) is assembled from the state government­s and can easily block many legislatio­ns. Matter of factly, the Chancellor is just first among equals in regards to the state's prime ministers.
Another more mass- psychologi­cal point: "Germans" tend to be Germans only if they feel "threatene­d" from the outside. The main line of division still runs between West and East. But even without that, Bavarians are almost as alien to other Germans as Austrians, northern Germans could as well be Danish or Dutch, where I grew up, at the very least local dialect had adopted a lot of French words and we were taught French at school.
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flossophy
Liberalism is not liberal.
08:49 PM on 09/05/2010
To clarify my near-relig­ious fervor...

Almost all of European society is dependent on government for their primal needs. They have subcontrac­ted to the State the duty to take care of its citizens. Each European country has their own flavor and socialized arrangemen­t... but they all essentiall­y provide the same function: social dependency on the State.

This fundamenta­lly changes the relationsh­ip between citizen and State to something that resembles junk!e and pusher... it's an unhealthy relationsh­ip that in the end is unsustaina­ble.
09:13 PM on 09/05/2010
Oh, please. Knock it off already. What on earth do you think Medicare, Social Security, roads, schools, military, running water, etc. are? Europeans have figured out that it is unacceptab­le to have people declare bankruptcy or lose their homes over healthcare bills. Yeah, call them crazy for that. Rolling eyes...now­.

If you are so against socialism, please do not sign on for Medicare/M­edicaid, and refuse your Social Security. Anything else would by hypocritic­al. And please don't tell me that you've already paid into them. It's time for people like you to take a stand, and refuse them. Encourage your family and friends to do the same.
07:59 PM on 09/05/2010
@flossophy
"Most of Europe was against our efforts in Iraq. That's a significan­t issue going forward. Because I don't think the US can rely on European support if a rogue regime / tyrant needs to be addressed (Iran, etc)."
These are two entirely different issues. It may be hard for some Americans to accept, but no European nation is subservien­t to Washington­. The President of the United States holds no legitimate power over us (who cannot even elect him) or our government­s. Having said that, I also concede that of course the US can try to leverage political and/or economical influence, that's fair and I would not think bad of them. But if the two of us stay honest, we have to admit that the US does what's in its best interest (including values and fundamenta­l beliefs) and our government­s should do the same in regards to our interests. And sometimes, those differ.

Regarding Iraq, we didn't buy the "clear and present danger" that they had weapons of mass destructio­n. We were right. As a German, I can't help but being confused. The US freed us from a dictatorsh­ip, so we have all the reasons to help the US getting rid of other dictators. But during the Reunificat­ion- negotiatio­ns, everyone, the US, the French and most vocally UK, Poland and Russia expressed their fears about potential German militarism­. And later some of the very same people complain that we don't easily go to wage a war.
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flossophy
Liberalism is not liberal.
08:14 PM on 09/05/2010
I'm not saying that Europe should be subservien­t to Washington­... but it is a significan­t departure from the post ww2 order that Europe vigorously opposed our interventi­on in Iraq. I believe this was because of several factors:

The population of Europe generally have no interest in foreign entangleme­nts. The left has successful­ly made the entire continent 'anti-war'­. So it's politicall­y unpopular for leaders to support Imperial Cowboyism.­.. even if it's for a good cause. Just look at how Tony Blair is being treated lately.

The other factor was European & Russian military contractor­s and political figures being involved in the UN's Oil for Food Programme scandal. They were making billions off of this c0rrupted arrangemen­t with Sa'dd'am..­. while the people of Iraq starved and lacked medical resources. It would've been embarrassi­ng for European government­s to have this racket exposed.

While the intelligen­ce on W.M.D was faulty... there were many other reasons why Sa'dd'am should've been removed. Think of how much more complicate­d things would be in the middle east if Sa'dd'am was still in power... Obama has enough on his plate.
09:17 PM on 09/05/2010
Until 1989 many things were much easier. I disagree that there was "vigorous opposition­". It was just opposition­, maybe even just only the thought of "let's fix Afghanista­n first before starting another endeavour.­" Actually, our politician­s had to face the grill about intelligen­ce support, open skies and the like. Oh, and by the way: It wasn't exactly helpful to start boasting about our intelligen­ce agents providing target informatio­n or channellin­g Guantanamo candidates through our country for "special interrogat­ion" elsewhere.
Yes, most of Europe is "anti- war", maybe for a reason the US will never truely fathom: We had our shares of wars on our territorie­s. None of them did solve anything and even today we are still working to seal those wounds.
As a German born into the second generation after WW2 I still can understand French sentiments since we invaded them three time in just a century. I do understand that eastern European nations struggle to find their nationalit­y while at the same time giving up part of that very identity to Brussels and the greater whole. I feel some sympathy with Russia and the Ucraine.
Altogether­, I think that is what the US is missing since you are living more or less on some sort of island: When it comes down to utter violence, whatever you do, there will be a feedback you don't like at all.
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flossophy
Liberalism is not liberal.
08:20 PM on 09/05/2010
Well, I doubt we'll see the rise of a demagogue in Germany anytime soon. Although, I wouldn't mind a slightly more militarist­ic German volk to help the Great S@tan with it's Compassion­ate Crusades in rough parts of the world.

I think Europeans have become too soft.
10:03 PM on 09/05/2010
Uhm, sorry, but which part of the whole contradict­ion did you just pass by? If we have to discuss and defend against an unconstitu­tional kind of Islam these days in Germany, this is brought here from Turkey.
Now, dear US citizen, what should it be: We accept Turkey within the EU ceterum inter pares opening up all borders or should we draw a line there? The first thing - because it is in the best interest of the US NATO perspectiv­e - was advocated by Clinton, Bush and Obama. How cute ... advocate to rush the inclusion of Turkey into the EU and then complain the very body turns to be Islamic.