New York-New Jersey Subway Raises Hackles, Hopes

CHRIS HAWLEY   11/20/10 01:12 PM ET   AP

7 Train

NEW YORK — Could New York's subway be going suburban?

A proposal to extend the No. 7 line across the Hudson River has straphangers atwitter, with some wondering how the new connection might change the character of the city's beloved trains.

"The idea of it going to New Jersey – oh my God," said Lorraine Diehl, a dyed-in-the-wool New Yorker and author of a book about the subway. "Eek! You'll come back with germs."

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg confirmed this week that the city is studying whether to extend its No. 7 line from the far west side of Manhattan and under the Hudson to Secaucus, N.J. It would be the subway's only stop outside New York City limits. Bloomberg called the $5.3 billion plan "very clever."

Die-hard New Yorkers were incredulous.

"You've got to be kidding me," said Linda Baran, president of the Staten Island Chamber of Commerce. She called the plan a slap in the face to the only subway-free borough, where people have been begging Bloomberg for better public transit for years.

The proposal set off fierce debates on online transit forums like SubChat.com and RailRoad.net, with many New York posters calling the idea a waste of money.

The Straphangers Campaign wants the city to ensure it can meet its other obligations, like finishing an unfinanced subway line along New York's Second Avenue, said Gene Russianoff, the association's staff attorney.

Bloomberg says extending the No. 7 could be an elegant replacement for another tunnel project that fizzled last month when New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie balked at the $9 billion to $14 billion price tag. Christie said taxpayers couldn't afford to bear the cost for years of the nation's most costly public works project, which would have doubled the commuting capacity of New Jersey residents taking Amtrak or NJ Transit trains to work.

Construction of a multibillion-dollar, 1.5-mile extension that would take the No. 7 from Times Square to the Hudson riverbank is already under way. The proposed tunnel under the Hudson would cost $5.3 billion and extend the line to the Secaucus Junction station, where straphangers could switch to New Jersey commuter train lines. The proposal is preliminary, and officials haven't firmed up who would pay for what.

The debate has tapped into the long-standing rivalry between New Yorkers and their neighbors across the Hudson, said Jack Eichenbaum, historian for the borough of Queens. Depending on which side of the river you're on, New Yorkers are egocentric jerks and New Jerseyans backwater rubes.

"People say `Why go to New Jersey? That's a whole other place!'" Eichenbaum said.

Earlier this year, Christie and New York Gov. David Paterson traded barbs over the boorish stars of the reality TV show "Jersey Shore." Christie complained that most of the cast was actually from New York; Paterson joked that maybe they were just better behaved when they're in New York.

In the rest of the country, it's not unusual for subways to cross into other cities, even other states.

Even in New York, there are plenty of other connections to New Jersey: ferry boats, NJ Transit trains and buses, as well as the Port Authority Trans-Hudson commuter rail trains, known as PATH.

But the century-old subway remains purely a New York thing. It also occupies a special place in American culture, inspiring songs like Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" and movies like "The Taking of Pelham One Two Three."

T-shirts featuring "A," "1" and other subway line symbols are brisk sellers in New York's souvenir shops. There are no PATH T-shirts there.

The proposed crossing would add a whole new dimension to the No. 7 line, said Jeff Liao, a Taiwanese photographer who spent three years documenting that train for a book.

The No. 7 – the purple line on subway maps – begins in the immigrant neighborhoods of Queens and ends in Times Square. The journey is a metaphor for the American experience itself, Liao said.

"We're all immigrants, and every day we're riding the train to Times Square, chasing the American dream," he said.

The line was the last to retire New York's emblematic "Redbird" trains, named for their dark red color. It takes legions of long-suffering Mets fans to games and gives them a place to savor victories or lament defeats together. Tennis lovers fill the cars in late August to ride east to watch the U.S. Open.

In 1999, New Yorkers went ballistic after Atlanta Braves player John Rocker likened a ride on the No. 7 to riding through Beirut "next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids."

The train continues to carry a diverse and mostly working-class crowd. As it sped eastward through Queens on a recent evening, bricklayer Elton McEneaney, 37, of Ireland, shared a bench with Nelson Romero, 50, a radio announcer from Colombia. There was a Chinese florist and a Mexican factory worker.

An hour later, a NJ Transit train carried a different kind of commuter westward, home to New Jersey: real estate developers, network engineers and executives dressed in suits, black dress shoes and overcoats. Most were white.

If the extension were built, Liao said, the two groups might someday share the same cars in Manhattan.

"The thing about the subway is, it's maybe the only part of the city that's an absolutely true melting pot," Russianoff said.

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NEW YORK — Could New York's subway be going suburban? A proposal to extend the No. 7 line across the Hudson River has straphangers atwitter, with some wondering how the new connection might cha...
NEW YORK — Could New York's subway be going suburban? A proposal to extend the No. 7 line across the Hudson River has straphangers atwitter, with some wondering how the new connection might cha...
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02:24 PM on 11/27/2010
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08:29 PM on 11/24/2010
I just hope it has a stop between Secaucus and the river as it would be criminal not to. Most people from Hoboken to Fort Lee travel to the city regularly and having a stop to service that demand would be a good idea to offset the blatant fact that the real goal of this is to get wallets to the new arenas. Besides game day is not everyday of the week like a working commute is.
12:49 PM on 11/22/2010
The PATH train is essentially a subway line, not a commuter rail. It's just not part of the MTA subway. Extending the 7 or any other line into NJ is long overdue.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Max Shaw
My micro-bio is no longer empty.
11:30 AM on 11/22/2010
If people will actually use it instead of driving, it would make road commutes for the rest of us much better. Trying to leave te city would be so much easier as lanes would be just opening up because of less cars trying to get to and across the GW...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SilentSolidarity
So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
10:24 AM on 11/22/2010
It's the best subway system, but also the least upgraded. Why does it cost $500 million ot build a new south ferry station?? That's just ridiculous. In California, they are building high speed rail stations for the same price tag.
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JerseyHooligan
Facts have a liberal bias
09:23 AM on 11/22/2010
Youll come back with germs? who is this woman, it sounds like she may have a little designer dog that i would love to throw on the tracks once its completed. New yorkers who talk trash about Jersey are at least semi smart enough to never do it face to face.
09:00 AM on 11/22/2010
I'm sorry... it's a "slap in the face" to call the NY Giants and NY Jets "New York" when their home is in New Jersey! Please. It's a great idea.
11:12 PM on 11/21/2010
I didn't know there was a problem with the public transportation links that NJ and NYC already have - the PATH train, NJ Transit, multiple ferries, and buses. I personally would vote against extending the 7 train to Secaucus, it sounds like a waste of taxpayer money. The whole thing smells fishy anyway, like the government wants to do this as a favor to the Giants (who play in Secaucus) by sending them more ticket-buyers from NYC at taxpayer expense.
11:02 PM on 11/21/2010
To me, this just seems so wrong on a cultural level. The NYC Subway is so entwined with the identity of the city that it just seems wrong to take it outside (note that the 5 stops just short of the Westchester border).
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JerseyHooligan
Facts have a liberal bias
09:24 AM on 11/22/2010
so the subway is sacred? you really need to check your priorities.
12:20 PM on 11/22/2010
On a practical level, I think it's a great idea, at least to a point. However, for me, it does seem culturally weird to take the subway out of the city.

Besides, New Jersians gave up the money when they elected Christie. I'd rather see the money go towards some projects in the city, such as the Nostrand Avenue extension, which has been stalled for over 50 years. Not that it's going to happen, since Real Estate just isn't hot there.
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krone5
river walker
10:00 PM on 11/21/2010
The Montrèal Mètro does go to Laval Now. so if If Canada can do it USA can do it too.
12:47 AM on 11/22/2010
Many metro systems go beyond the borders of their city: DC Metro, Boston's "T", Portland's TriMet system, etc.

If it makes economic and environmental sense, why constrain a system within municipal borders? The easier you make the system for people to use, the more likely they are to use it.
09:26 PM on 11/21/2010
This is a bad idea. Not because it's New Jersey, but because there's a huge MTA deficit. They're cutting service and lines here in New York, and the want to build ANOTHER tunnel to New Jersey?!?! There's already train service to Secaucus from Penn. It runs pretty frequently too. Yeah, you might have to pay another 2.50 or so for the NJ transit service, but it's not like New Jersey-ites are stranded. Before they plan on making additions to the subway service, I think they should focus on what's already here, and stop cutting service. Another question...What's Bloomberg getting out of this? I'm sure there's some business/profit motive for it.
12:59 AM on 11/22/2010
The current tunnel (in fact Penn Station, the tunnel and all the tracks heading south to Philly) are owned by Amtrak and shared by Amtrak and NJ Transit. There are only two tracks, one in and one out. The ARC tunnel is needed because the current tunnel, which has been in service for 100 years, cannot carry enough traffic to allow NJ Transit to expand service to meet the demands of usage growth. A few weeks ago there was a minor derailment on the NYC side of the tunnel and it wrought havoc on the system, as only one track could be used for ALL traffic. Imagine if there were a major problem, like a derailment inside the tunnel with significant track damage. Having a new two-track tunnel would ease those problems, as well.
FWIW, the NJTransit service does not run 24 hours, like the subway does.
You can make a legitimate argument that the limited MTA resources would be better spent within the current system, but there is no denying that additional access between NJ and NYC is necessary.
09:03 AM on 11/22/2010
nicely said! :)
03:44 PM on 11/22/2010
Seeing as how the majority of people commuting are coming INTO New York, it would be unfair of NYC to ask taxpayers to solely shoulder the burden for extending the 7 line. (Yes, yes, I realize NJ residents have taxes taken out of their paychecks while working in NY, but this is miniscule in comparison to the NY City and State taxes that chiefly fund the MTA.) There are so many other areas within the 5 Boroughs that could benefit from additional subway service, that it seems almost perverse to help NJ commuters first. There was already a way to alleviate the strain of commuters going to/from NJ -- and Chris Christie killed it.
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
09:02 PM on 11/21/2010
It also occupies a special place in American culture, inspiring songs like Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" and movies like "The Taking of Pelham One Two Three.
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Wow.Talk about two disparate cultural references...the Taking of Pelhalm holds a special place for whom?lol

It's a waste of money and seriously they need to give Staten Island first dibs on any new subway project.
THe jokes about Jersey germs are silly...the subway is gross as it is; can't get worst.
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bjefrz
http://twentyfiveseventeen.blogspot.com
02:19 AM on 11/22/2010
did you ride the subway at any point in the mid 70s to mid 80s? Can't get worse? It's already been worse.
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brooklyncitizen
Quaerite primum regnum dei
08:29 AM on 11/22/2010
Yup. I commuted to high school in the 80's. Witnessed a knife fight and a bad mugging by a gang. Our HS was on lockdown during the day and no one was allowed in or out after the doors closed for first period.It was a dangerous neighborhood and the Chinese gangs would come across the bridge and fight some of the Asian kids in our school that belonged to rival gangs.
One day an English class was mugged - the kids and teacher were robbed at gunpoint.So yes I remember the subway when it was worst.

Today it is way more crowded...we must have a couple of million more people since then.ANd I still prefer the old TIme Square over this urban Disney.
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08:14 PM on 11/21/2010
"As long as the NJ taxpayer pays for it."

They already pay $1.2 billion a year in New York City Income Taxes.
03:51 PM on 11/22/2010
So NY taxpayers, who pay NYC Income Taxes PLUS NY City and State taxes should assume the cost of extending a subway line that will pretty much ONLY serve NJ residents? Absurd. Also note the NYC Income Tax, beyond the small portion that goes towards the MTA, also helps fund Police, Fire, Ambulance, and a slew of other public services that must accommodate numbers well over those that actually live in NY -- the daily commuters from outside the 5 Boroughs.
08:12 PM on 11/21/2010
As long as the NJ taxpayer pays for it.
09:16 PM on 11/21/2010
been commuting and paying for it for years.
07:37 PM on 11/21/2010
Well, it would be nice if the current plans for the 7 extension didn't completely bypass far West 42nd Street. Now the plan is to go straight from Times Square to the Javits Center, avoiding thousands of residents on 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th Avenues. Y'know, where the PEOPLE are.
09:18 PM on 11/21/2010
a good portion of the working population live and commute across the hudson. People who live within city limits have more transportation options than anyone coming from jersey.