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Tony Blair, Christopher Hitchens Debate Religion

CHARMAINE NORONHA   11/27/10 01:48 AM ET   AP

Hitchens Blair

TORONTO — Former British prime minister Tony Blair said Friday his religious beliefs did not play a role in his decision to support the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq during a debate about the merits of religion in Toronto.

Blair attempted to persuade his verbal sparring opponent, writer Christopher Hitchens, that religion is a force for global good when he was asked by an audience member how religion influenced his decision to stand with the United States against Iraq.

"Religion doesn't do policy. All my decisions were based on policy and so they should be, and you may disagree with those decisions but they were made because I genuinely believed them to be right," said Blair before the audience of more than 2,600 at Toronto's Roy Thompson Hall.

Blair, 57, converted to Catholicism after leaving office in 2007. Since then he has started the Tony Blair Faith Foundation to promote understanding between religions.

He faced a fierce opponent in the debating ring Friday night. Hitchens, 61, an avowed atheist, Vanity Fair columnist and author of "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything," has been a prominent voice in attacking religion.

"Is it good for the world to worship a deity that takes sides in wars and human affairs, to appeal to our fear and to our guilt – is it good for the world?" Hitchens said in his opening remarks.

"To terrify children with the image of hell ... to consider women an inferior creation. Is that good for the world?" Hitchens asked as he opened the debate hosted by the Munk Debates center.

Though his face was pale and drawn, and his trademark mop of unruly hair gone, he was no less animated than usual in spite of his battle with cancer of the esophagus. He said earlier Friday that he scheduled his chemotherapy treatments around the debate so he "wouldn't have to let anyone down,"

"This is what I do whether I'm sick or not. (Religion) is still the main argument," said Hitchens who has made it known that his diagnosis has not opened him to God or religious belief.

Hitchens fueled the debate by criticizing religion for blocking peace in the Middle East, perpetuating poverty by subjugating women as inferior and causing numerous conflicts including the genocide in Rwanda – a country he says "is the most Christian country in the world, and one which many of the people who committed the crimes are now hiding in the pulpit."

Blair acknowledged that religion has been used to lead people to commit indescribable acts, but it has also led people to commit acts of goodness.

"Health care in Africa has been delivered by those motivated by their religion ... The abolition of slavery was achieved by combined secularism and non-secularism. At least accept that there are people who are doing great things because of their faith," he said.

Blair incited a sarcastic response from Hitchens when he argued the Northern Ireland peace process is an example of how people of different faiths can bridge their differences.

"It's very touching for Tony to say that he recently went to a meeting to bridge the religious divide in Northern Ireland, where does the religious divide come from?" Hitchens asked. "Four-hundred years and more in my own country of birth of people killing each other's children depending on what kind of Christian they were."

Although a lot of conflicts have religious roots, it's futile to try to drive religion out, Blair said.

"In the end, it's for politics and religion to try and work out a way in which religion in a world of globalization that is pushing people together can play a positive rather than negative role," he added.

Audience members voted on the debate and preliminary results posted on the Munk Debates website sided with Hitchens, with 68 percent saying that religion is more of a destructive than benign force in the world.

BBC World News and the News Channel will broadcast the debate on Jan., 1 2011.

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TORONTO — Former British prime minister Tony Blair said Friday his religious beliefs did not play a role in his decision to support the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq during a debate about the merits...
TORONTO — Former British prime minister Tony Blair said Friday his religious beliefs did not play a role in his decision to support the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq during a debate about the merits...
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05:33 PM on 12/21/2010
It's not G-d, I'ts MAN. There-in lies the problem.

MAN continually twists the law of the creator to fit into his own law.
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05:53 AM on 12/01/2010
I hope Hitchens hangs on longer than Blair.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Hirnlego
05:56 PM on 11/30/2010
Debating Tony Blair on faith

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/11/debating_tony_blair_on_faith.html

by Hitch..
03:27 PM on 11/30/2010
Why so hostile to reality? It is far too easy a position to take to pretend one knows everything and people who struggle with their basic science skills know nothing. It is cruel and immature.
03:22 PM on 11/30/2010
Religion is an individual affair, not political. It can better individuals. Society is made of individuals therefore religion is good for society. Obviously there are many people who misuse religion for making money or getting personal advantages. There are no bad religions but only people who exploit religions.
The issue religion is linked to the issue “good and evil”. What good is? And what evil? Many philosophers, starting from Plato have tried to give a definition of what is good and what is evil. Nobody has succeeded in it so far. Therefore some thinkers defines the morals a “paraenesis”, an exhortation, but for Christians the only parameter of moral conduct is God, the moral code we have inside ourselves.
The book I have recently written may help in this direction and I want to draw it to your attention, as you may be interested in it. The title is “Travels of the Mind”. My website is www.ettoregrillo.com. My blog is www.authorettoregrillo.com
If you have any questions, I am most willing to offer my views on this topic.
Ettore Grillo
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
David Belkevitz
03:36 PM on 11/30/2010
Who said it was political? And who said it can better individuals? Does one need to believe to make them a good person? A person is good or bad with or without religion, it is not a prerequisite.
04:05 PM on 11/30/2010
"It can better individuals" - Doesn't mean it is 'good' or make a person 'better'...That is a leap in logic and an assumption. I can just as easily say that religion doesn't make a person 'better'... We could both argue that there is evidence for both religion bettering and not bettering society, but every instance of it bettering you could argue that it can be done without the divine intervention. You're right that there isn't a 'bad' religion, but that doesn't mean that religions are obsolete....Apple IIe was a decent enough machine in its day, but I'd rather use my current machine instead. Does that mean the Apple is 'bad'? Nope! It just means that it had its time and its place.

And the most important point you make without realizing it is that individuals make up society, our society...both national and global...the decisions made by the individuals directly influent my life/ our lives. Religion and spirituality or rather people who think that these ideas are also philosophies to live by, vote by, and (mis)understand by are the issue. 'Good', 'bad' are not the issue....willful ignorance is, perpetuated by a mishandling of public education (different topic) . I/ we shouldn't tolerate 'traditions' that continually lead us away from 'progress'
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paleoimage
I'm happy to live in a fact based world
01:14 PM on 11/30/2010
Believers think that by not giving a "pass" to religion over every ridiculous claim is somehow a "hateful attack". I'm sorry that born again Christians think I'm being hateful when I scoff at their belief in the flood of Noah's Ark or that Muslims are enraged when one argues the Sharia laws are pathetic relics of the 12th century. Atheists and agnostics have finally decided that they have been silent long enough while having various mythologies touted ceaselessly. Hostile? Not really... we're just not going to stand by and give tacit approval to the supernatural longings of others.
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03:21 AM on 01/09/2011
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realpolitic
When in Rome.......
03:44 AM on 11/30/2010
Why so hostile to religion?  It is far too easy a position to take to pretend one knows everything and people who struggle with their faiths know nothing.   It is silly and juvenile.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
EmmaDarian
All in all, I'm loving every rise and fall (RHCP)
06:35 AM on 11/30/2010
Who are you asking? If you're talking about Hitchens, I believe he makes his case clearly and compellingly (and I don't agree with "hostility" as a description). Also, he doesn't pretend (or claim) he knows everything or that anyone else knows nothing.

Or are you addressing someone else?
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realpolitic
When in Rome.......
09:56 AM on 11/30/2010
The people who post here.
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Dan Jighter
06:39 AM on 11/30/2010
Actually, the easy position is to simply not think critically about religion and show all religion respect. Anti-theism is too courageous of a position to call easy. Often anti-theist atheists have considered the arguments and evidence for religion and found it wanting. We've talked about many people about why they believe what they do and found their justification poor and logically fallacious. And we have observed the very real impact of religion in people's lives, not always positive. You don't become an anti-theist because it is easy and you want an easy position, you do so after careful consideration.

If religion is as intellectually dishonest and such a negative force as the anti-theists maintain, then isn't it obvious why we are hostile towards religion?
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realpolitic
When in Rome.......
09:57 AM on 11/30/2010
To see religion so negatively is really one-sided and not a thinking position.
09:36 PM on 11/29/2010
A much better choice than watching Blair fumble through a "debate" is a new offering at The Science Network:

http://the­sciencenet­work.org/p­rograms/th­e-great-de­bate/steve­n-pinker-3

the subject of the panel discussion is - Can Science Tell us Right From Wrong?

Among other things, Steven Pinker reminds us of Plato's Proof that morality does not come from gods...
09:31 PM on 11/29/2010
“Earlier I was asked "why criticize, why not respect and leave alone?" in regards to religious beliefs.

That mind-set is a big problem and misses something fundamenta­l - the falacy of respect for all ideas regardless of merit.

I didn't mean criticism in the negative sense, but criticism in the sense of examining the claims. Just as historians and philosophe­­rs and scientists do when a new idea in their field is offered up....And if claims don't stand up to scrutiny then that should be public knowledge.­­...

This includes claims about supernatur­al events which are at the foundation of most religions and the worship fetish.

there should be no sacred cows when trying to understand the universe, and that universe includes man-made myths and human behaviour.­....­.”
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Hirnlego
06:01 AM on 11/30/2010
Amen!
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BoojWaZEE
08:58 PM on 11/29/2010
BREAKING NEWS FROM THE WORLD OF SCIENCE:

Recombinant DNA scientists just announced that they have successfully combined the DNA of a cantaloup with that from one of Lassie's puppies and created the world's first MELON-COLLIE BABY !!!
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BoojWaZEE
07:06 PM on 11/29/2010
in ENGLISH terms, it would be said that Christopher Hitchens shone like one of King Arthur's Knights making quick haggis out of some squalid, lowly peasant Blair.

in New York terms: Chris tore him a new one !!!
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rambot02
A modest proposal...
06:40 PM on 11/29/2010
"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
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BoojWaZEE
06:18 PM on 11/29/2010
Imagine there's NO heaven

it's EASY if you try

NO Hell below us

above us ONLY sky...

--John Lennon
07:47 PM on 11/29/2010
Since you're imagining, do you suppose Hitchens will ever bump into Lennon? Hell is a big place!
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David Belkevitz
08:31 PM on 11/29/2010
Well if them Priests had behaved themselves, there would have been more space for us atheists!!!
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BoojWaZEE
09:03 PM on 11/29/2010
Hell is a "big place" in YOUR IMAGINATION because in reality, there is NO HELL.

In my mind, there is NO HELL, you should try it sometimes, it's far less stressful and several degrees cooler !!
09:23 PM on 12/02/2010
The Word delivered from the Gospel according to John, from the First Church of Lennon.

A pathetic response to "I am the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in Me, even if he die, yet shall he live."

I notice the grave in the First Church of Lennon is still filled.

Lennon and other atheists always choose the wrong target. They oppose Christ when they should be opposing hypocritical Christians who only claim to follow Christ.

Like, perhaps, Mr and Mrs Tony Blair - who are happy to support state funded abortion.
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
05:07 PM on 11/29/2010
Religion to me is just a primitive form of Law and Order and punishment. before there was civil law there was only the law that the kings and pharaohs etc decided was law and that could change on his whim.

Religion was a great set of laws to govern people by, when there was little way to govern and order people outside of physical force.

but it became something else, the judge became the worshiped, as kings were, and pharoahs, the holders of life and death have always been worshiped.

but now we have civil law, law enforcement, nationalism, theres just no need for religion.
07:08 PM on 11/29/2010
Very well put!

At the individual level, religion is just a way to try and influence our environment - heal sickness, bring rain for crops, give meaning to death, etc. At the societal level, it gives a minority elite the power to control society without the use of constant force..

Ultimately YHWH is just a tribal god who would be a minor curiosity of religious studies in the west if he hadn't been co-opted by Constantine and the Europeans.
09:40 PM on 11/29/2010
We might not 'need' it..especially those of us who think rationally... but fact is facts .. over 60% of Americans are believers..and most of those believers are republicans to boot...
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
11:41 AM on 11/30/2010
this is true, i think though that religion, is dissipating. for instance my mom, she's technically catholic and "religious" but she doesn't believe in a Man in the sky god. But she believes in Jesus and all that. she's not practicing, nor does she THINK much about religion, it's more or less a benign belief, and more and more people that are claimed in that 60% may fit that mold I think
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BoojWaZEE
04:36 PM on 11/29/2010
It is the quintessential disconnect and a complete dichotomy in thinking when individuals in search of truth and meaning in their lives turn to centuries old fantasy, fairy tales and conjecture for their answers.

there is

NO Tooth Fairy

NO Easter Bunny

NO Santa Claus

NO Zodiac

NO Ouija Board

NO Tea Leaves

NO VooDoo

NO Tarot Cards

NO Chinese Fortune Cookies

NO Smoke & Mirrors

NO Oz

NO Mohammed

NO Allah

NO Christ

NO Buddha

NO Krishna

NO Vishnu

NO Zeus

NO Venus

NO Poseidon

NO Hercules

NO Superman

NO Spiderman

NO Batman

NO Captain Crunch

NO Life-Time Warranties

NO Buy One, Get One FREE

NO Low Interest for the first 6 months

NO 50% OFF Sale

NO Frequent Flyer Miles

NO Organically Grown

NO Corporate Responsibility

NO Safe Offshore Drilling

NO Ethics and Rules Committee

NO 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven if you agree simply to blowing yourself to smithereens

NO make believe god(s).......there is only Nature and a harmonious co-existance with Nature requires that individuals think and act rationally.
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BoojWaZEE
05:02 PM on 11/29/2010
oh ya.....I forgot:

NO Abraham &

NO Connie Chung
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
BoojWaZEE
09:00 PM on 11/29/2010
NO Scrubbing Bubbles

NO Herman Munster

NO Mr. Clean
10:22 PM on 11/29/2010
NO Cleveland Browns superbowl trophies.... :(
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KCM7
I vote one way. Anti-bigot.
11:35 PM on 11/29/2010
Well look on the bright side. At least the Ravens haven't won the Superbowl either.

What's that you say? Oops. Never mind.

LOL.

Raider fan.