NYC Education Reform Controversy: Do Smaller Schools Mean Success?

Chancellor Joel Klein of New York City has implemented a school reform strategy that aims to exchange large, underperforming schools with smaller schools. To date, 26 schools with high dropout rates have been closed and, since, graduation rates in the city have risen 10 percent.

Despite some of the strategy's successes, there are many who are discontented with the outcome -- hundreds of high school students left without a school to attend. Students who were left out in the transition -- including international and special education students -- were then forced to move to the few remaining high-capacity schools, only passing on the original problem.

PBS NEWSHOUR reports:

Chancellor Klein, who retires in January, says that change is controversial, and that there is still much tough work ahead to make the system work for the 300,000 students still attending large high schools.

WATCH:

Comments

[Yoannah]

10:18 AM on 12/31/2010

I teach in a very small school, and I can't even imagine teaching in a behemoth like the typical urban public high school.
I know names of each and every student, even if I don't teach him or her. We know when something goes wrong, we inform each other right away if we notice a kid suddenly has issues, we can implement strategies for a student across the board and so on. We, teachers, can communicate with each other easily, because we fit in one faculty room. I can discuss teaching difficulties and get advice from a science or history teacher, because we are not separated into different sections.
I believe there is a theory that 300 students is the maximum number that allows teachers and administration to know each student.
In big schools students become numbers, they are not individuals. There is no way to know what is going on in life of a student when there is hundreds of them passing by.
In my school there is no way a student can "slip by", hide, appear invisible. I have personal relationship with each of my students. I know their names, often their parents, I know if they have siblings and if they fight with them. We are informed if there is a family tragedy so we act accordingly.

Humans are not ants, we do better in smaller groups.

[Proktor]

05:46 AM on 01/03/2011

Small schools are good for all of the reasons mentioned by Yoannah. However, aren't they more expensive? Also, what about sports? I teach at a small school in the Bronx, and these kids have 1 girls and 1 boys basketball team for the whole building, which houses 5 schools. There is 1 softball team and 1 baseball team. There isn't a football team. These kids only get an extra-curricular session if the teachers can stay after school and create one themselves. What's been lost here is a reason for many kids to come to school, stay in school, and keep their grades up. Without a sport (and coaches) to keep the pressure on, these kids opt out and leave early, take 3, 4, and 5 day weekends, or they don't come in for a month. Without sports, we lose things like pep rallies and much of the school spirit that comes along with the rivalries with other schools. Our kids BEG for more classes and more choices that we just cannot supply.

[mady]

08:56 AM on 12/28/2010

As long as football is a priority, we will not have small high schools. Bigger is cheaper too.

[teacher39years]

06:41 PM on 12/27/2010

Small Schools have been tried before and were not successful

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/charter-schools/who-in-education-says-oops.html

[whatever2]

02:26 AM on 12/28/2010

You're talking about charter schools. I was talking about regular public schools where graduating classes were well below 40 students. Most of them went on to college. They became doctors, accountants, teachers, bankers, at least one mathematician, and even a state level politician.

[Kenz300]

02:00 PM on 12/27/2010

There should be NO rubber rooms.

Every teacher in this position should be assigned to some type of work
that support the eduction system in their district.

If you are getting paid then you need to be contributing.

[teacher39years]

12:08 PM on 12/27/2010

“Bill Gates has been an advocate of "Small Schools" and even admits that his plan didn't work. Joel Klein, New York City School Chancellor appointed by Michael Bloomberg , quit his job to become Vice President of Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp. Murdoch bought an Education Technology Company on the same day that he hired Klein. While Klein blames the "Unions" in the tape, the court overruled him because he closed the schools without another plan in place as to where to put the students. These Small Schools did not accept English Language Learners or Special Education Students. Why does this sound familiar?
http://www­.forbes.co­m/2008/11/­18/gates-f­oundation-­schools-op­ed-cx_dr_1­119ravitch­.html

[Vampyre Dog]

08:55 AM on 12/27/2010

How about limits on free education. If you don't like school or can't behave by 8th grade you can go to work in America's new manufacturing base. Smaller class sizes and students who want to learn.

[VA Jill]

01:13 PM on 12/27/2010

What manufacturing class? All those jobs have been moved overseas!

[Vampyre Dog]

01:15 PM on 12/27/2010

the key word is "new". Although I wonder if poor students could even manufacture anytying.

[Arthur L]

08:51 AM on 12/27/2010

Brooklyn-based philosopher, Biggie Smalls would likely advise that mo' schoo's, mo' problems.

[AaronGoBra]

06:37 AM on 12/27/2010

I remember going to school in the early eighties and there always being several classes that were short desk space by about 2 or 3 . We would scramble for chairs with the class size being about 30. One or two were 35 . I think that was the limit by the board of education.

Anyways, I always found the extra large classes to be more lively with discussion and questions rather than a class of 20 to 25.

I can only imagine what it is like now and especially in the inner cities of America. The Wire was one of my favorite programs and they did an accurate portrayal I thought of it in season 4.

In the 30 years or so since I have noticed so many private schools come onto the horizon. Whether they are better overall is yet to be seen, but they do allow more one on one learning , as well as way more access to peripheral tools to help.

[gilbskg]

11:26 AM on 12/29/2010

Much of the success of private schools is not just class size. It also the ability to pick and choose from applicants based on previous grades and behavior. With all of that said, I have always loved big classes, for the reason you stated above...then again, I teach high school, which is a totally different animal.

[Dave Harpe]

02:18 AM on 12/27/2010

One way to really help the education problem is to go back to the good old days in the 60s, when education was fully funded. Republicans thrive on ignorance, so they will make sure this never happens. In fact their call for more austerity will reduce education budgets even more.

[mady]

08:50 AM on 12/28/2010

Right, they claim to be spending more on education, but the money is siphoned off to educational consulting companies and a whole new industry of educational products tied to government contracts, similar to military contracts.

[gilbskg]

11:27 AM on 12/29/2010

And let's not forget those big contracts to testing companies.

[vsjim]

01:39 AM on 12/27/2010

Chancellor Klein and his plan are failures. He destroyed the Community School Boards, taking the parents out of the equation. The plan takes a school building and breaks it generally into a few “Magnet Schools” each of which then “specialize” in an educational direction.

Take for example Springfield Gardens High School, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Gardens_High_School which as somewhat accurate)

The implementation sent the worst students from the original Springfield Gardens High School to other high schools or had many just drop out before the senior year by not assigning them a high school. Transferred students brought down neighboring high schools making them eligible for being changed into “Magnet Schools”. At best it created marginal increases in scores in the magnet schools and lowered the drop out rate in the senior year for all high schools. Please note that for the first few years the “Magnet Schools” are not required to report everything about their programs that other High Schools would - the score increases or lower drop out rates may not be true. It allowed the Chancellor and Mayor Bloomberg to have more senior teachers retire or retire early rather than be moved to a worst school. The teachers know that a number of these New York City high schools have high hidden crime rates – i.e. the Principals are hiding criminal activity. As a side affect this saves on salaries the way big business do it to make their bottom lines look good.

[ThBigD]

01:21 AM on 12/27/2010

Smaller is better, as proven by a program in Harlem.

It was proposed that this idea be spread nation-wide, but Bush killed the program. Look it up.

[noshortcuts]

12:33 AM on 12/27/2010

So much depends on the individual student. Many parents wish to shelter their children. Others need a smaller personal approach. Yet for most students, the ones who are on track, stay focused and have good parent support, any school will work. My high school has over 2k students. Most do okay. Unfortunately, California only offers a college prep diploma. Those students not passing algebra and geometry are plain out of luck. We offer little in vocational education. Our students who are not college bound literally drop out because nothing else is available. Guess which ethnic groups tend not to go to college? If only our state legislators would realize that it doesn't take a college degree to become an electrician, carpenter, painter, landscaper, hair stylist..... The present rally cry for our elite educational consultants, superintendents, and reformers is "everybody can do everything!" That's so far from the truth.

[jman7]

12:26 AM on 12/27/2010

smaller class sizes do not equal a better success in teaching.

I have experienced class sizes as a student ranging from 300 to 10 15 18 50 25 it does not matter.

There was a 15 person class a professor could not remember my name nor did the class feel like we learned a thing. A 300 person class I was in the professor knew my name assisted me with my midterm and offered a letter of rec for graduate school to my friend.

Class size from an actual students perspective does not make a shred of difference. It is all about the quality of the teacher not the quantity

[Mountain Momma]

04:12 AM on 12/27/2010

I think school size is an issue, though. I went to a high school with less than 400 students. The principal knew every one of us by name, knew our families, knew classes we were taking, and pretty much knew whenever anyone was someplace they shouldn't be. You just couldn't get away with crap there - there was nowhere to hide. On the other hand, my husband went to a school with nearly 2,000 students there. I always say his diploma should have the name of the local ski spot on it, because he probably spent more time on the slopes than he did in a classroom. No one missed him. A smaller, more manageable school will likely lead to a better sense of community and more support for students.

[whatever2]

06:34 AM on 12/27/2010

I disagree. I think if anyone did a study they would find that percentage wise, smaller schools do have higher rates of graduates going on for college degrees to become doctors, accountants, bankers, and teachers. I'm sure that was true in the small elementary/high school I attended.

[jman7]

10:02 AM on 12/27/2010

you misunderstand though. I am not saying that small class sizes do not help. I am saying they are not the only reason for success. If you rely on small class sizes as we have been doing you achieve little. Small class sizes alone are not the answer to the problem which is what this article suggests

[ScientistfromtheHood]

12:12 AM on 12/27/2010

One problem with smaller schools is bullying. By decreasing the size of a school you often see bullies and their victims sharing multiple classes together. More time together means more bullying. Just an observation....

[mady]

08:59 AM on 12/28/2010

The problem with bullying in general is that teachers don't see it happening in the commotion. It seems it would be easier to detect in smaller groups.

[ScientistfromtheHood]

03:58 AM on 01/01/2011

That's not the problem. The teachers want to be friends with the bullies because the bullies are cool and they want to be cool too. They view bullying as a "nobody's at fault" event, break the kids up and the kids are back at it in the next class. Separating the kids, with larger classes and schools helps to separate the bully from the bully victim.

[TheOtherMosby]

11:05 PM on 12/26/2010

No one's mentioned anything about "credit recovery" under Klein's administration?

They already admitted the test scores released during Bloomberg's run for a third term were artificially inflated. Many of these "improvements" are nothing more than a shell game played with the lives of students, predominantly African-American and Latino.

[teacher39years]

09:56 PM on 12/27/2010

Excellent point.