The Class Size Debate: Does Student To Teacher Ratio Really Matter?

The debate rages on: does decreasing the number of students in a classroom improve learning?

CNN's Ali Velshi invited two guests to square off on the class size debate.

Leonie Haimson, a New York City public school parent and the Executive Director of advocacy group Class Size Matters, argues that the student to teacher ratio is an important component in education.

Harvard researcher Matthew Chingos, who studied class sizes, found there was no direct correlation between how many Florida middle school students were in a class and their educational achievement.

WATCH:

Quick Poll

Does Class Size Matter?

Absolutely. Students learn better in smaller classes!

No. The student-teacher ratio isn't a factor in how well kids learn.

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Comments

[sickupandfed]

04:21 PM on 03/14/2011

Why does it never occur to any of these people to ASK A TEACHER... ASK A STUDENT!

[Shana Donohue]

08:05 PM on 01/25/2011

There are two upsides of a larger class: more diversity among students and the drive to succeed (and/or not act out in front of peers. I found that when I was teaching, if too many students were out on a day the kids who were in school felt it should be a "free day". Kids weren't there to bounce ideas off each other or to push each other.

So does class size matter? It definitely does. Even when I had less students in class and the ones who weren't there were less motivated to do work, I was able to connect to the students who were there because the class was quiet and there were less kids to reach. And isn't that what good teaching is half about?
http://zerosumruler.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/small-schools-supersized-classes-thanks-a-bunch-bill-gates/

[Dreamofflowers]

05:41 PM on 01/25/2011

Once again, let's look at the best private schools in the country. The ratio is about 10 to one. There are many components to an effective classroom environment. As an educator who has taught in both public and private schools from the inner city, (public housing) to private schools that cost 30,000 dollars a year, class size matters! As a parent, who wants their child crammed into a classroom with more than 20 kids? It is very difficult to be effective as a teacher in crowded conditions; I don't care how well-trained you are, children are going to get over-looked.

[Petey2277]

07:58 PM on 03/03/2011

No it certainly does not matter. The study being referred to finds no significant difference in achievement of kids in small or large classes. What does matter, and really the only thing that does, is the quality of teaching. Private schools are a joke - you pick the top students, collect big tuition to put kids in small classes, and then declare them as a success because of small classes. I operate a large public district as superintendent and guarantee you that I collected our top 500 students and teachers they would blow away any private school in achievement. And we could do it in classes of 30-40

[Daly]

10:14 AM on 03/12/2011

Petey
I agree that the privates are taking testing students then cherry pick students they want.
As a parent looking at my options I do not care that a public school has old desk but I do care that they have the proper number of them on hand... some teachers here are saying that their classes did not have enough desk and the principal just throw up hands and tell the teacher to deal with it.

If they cannot get a simple thing like desk to student then I worry about books, supplies and whatever other tools especially in say lab classes.

[lorraine s]

03:03 PM on 01/25/2011

Does class size matter? It depends. Home schoolers often make the argument that with such a tiny group of children, the child will be able to get a great deal of attention, can work at her own rate and more efficiently. With some subjects, and an enthusiastic group of able learners, a large class may allow for more group interaction, where the children can engage with each other, and in working together, teach each other- this was the case when I taught in Waldorf education and the same class stayed together over a number of years. As had been stated in other posts here, most private schools, (where most of our wealthy politicians send their children!) boast of small class size. Children who come from stressed home environments or who have learning disabilites often benefit from smaller group and even individual learning situations. The earlier one is in the education journey, the more important it is to have a healthy relationship with another human being- the educator. That takes time, and a smaller group allows for more time with the teacher.

[becut]

02:18 PM on 01/25/2011

Definition of an Ineffective Teacher:

An inner city teacher hired to teach 30+ students for 5 periods a day. The students are 3-4 years below grade level, yet the teacher is required to teach students on grade level (8th grade curriculum taught to 4th grade ability). The teacher must also deal with highly unmotivated children (behvior problems) because they know that they will be promoted no matter if they do any homework, pass any test, or demonstrate adequate skill level on standardized tests from year to year. When students are offered afterschool and Saturday tutoring they do not show up. The teacher cannot contact the parent because the cell phone is shut off. The teacher then makes a home visit and understands why with everything they have tried, they are ineffective.

The effect is ineffective teachers, the cause is ineffective parents who have not realized or have no chance of realizing the American Dream. The economic, educationally oppressed and/or depressed have difficulty supporting their children, all they can do is send them to school and hope for the best. The District tells them we will take care of your children by cutting funding and pitting the parents and teachers against each other...............lovely system.

[Sarah Tuck]

09:30 AM on 01/25/2011

Now matter how effective the teacher is it is very difficult for differentiated instruction in the classroom when you only have so many minutes in the class and 20 something students. It is physically impossible to give each and every one of them individualized attention for their own specific needs in the classroom. I agree that ineffective teachers won't fair well even with smaller class sizes, but larger classes aren't the answer to the growing population, we need more teachers who are passionate about what they do and we need to spread out the number of classes that we have in schools, bringing the number of students in the classroom down.

[umbrarchist]

10:52 PM on 01/24/2011

If math teachers used these what could they do to the ratio?

http://patrickjmt.com/

They play fine on the $100 Sylvania.

[LISUPT]

09:43 PM on 01/24/2011

It is not about class size but rather the effectiveness of the person in front of the classroom. An effective teacher in a class of 21 will still be effective in a class of 25. An ineffective teacher in a class of 18 will still be ineffective. Class size is not the magic bullet.

[floyd1976]

12:20 AM on 01/25/2011

18, 21, and 25 aren't all that different. On the other hand, there are teachers who have over 150 students. If you don't realize that meaningful feedback is an essential part of teaching, you don't know much about teaching. Do some quick math.
If a teacher has 150 students and spends 20 minutes reading, marking up, and grading each students essay, that would take 50 hours. Stop and think about that. This isn't including planning lessons, meetings, actually teaching classes, tutoring, etc. This is grading that should take place outside of school hours. Do you have 50 spare hours each week? That's assuming the essay is the only work. give them a quiz that takes you 2 minutes to grade each paper. That's 5 hours of grading. For a little quiz. Starting to get the picture here?

This is all great if you believe teachers have no need for sleep, should have no friends, don't need to eat or go to the bathroom, do not have or need families, but, if you feel people shouldn't have to martyr themselves to do such an important job and you want to attract the best and the brightest, class size has been shown to matter.

Yup, it's not a magic bullet, but, it's better than the hail mary pass of expecting an army of super teachers to succeed despite impossible odds. Set teachers up to fail and most will.

[becut]

03:03 PM on 01/25/2011

LOGICAL REASONING:

Ineffective environment = Ineffective teachers,
NOT
Effective environment = Ineffective teachers

DO THE MATH!!!!

[sushai]

06:27 PM on 01/24/2011

Longitudinal studies show that small class sizes get results. You can't just make a class smaller here and there and expect kids will do better by the end of the year.

[lecloche]

06:14 PM on 01/24/2011

For eighty years the Harness Method has been cranking out some of the best minds on the planet. 'Nuff said.

[lecloche]

06:20 PM on 01/24/2011

In truth, the HarKness Method has been cranking out some of the best minds on the planet.The Harness Method has been holding everything back since the dawn of mankind.

[LPH]

02:37 AM on 01/25/2011

Could it be that the best minds are allowed to use this method and skew the results? Poor minds end up avoiding any method of learning and would probably waste time during a "discussion."

[valsie]

12:32 PM on 01/24/2011

I am a high school Social Studies teacher. I don't mind large classes, what I mind is large caseloads. Last school year I never taught fewer than 187 students per day (37.4 students per class). I took a tremendous toll on me to thoughtfully correct essays and give meaningful feedback. I had to use personal and sick days to go to coffee shops and grade for eight hours straight, even then I would only make a dent in the pile.

If class sizes remain high, fine, but then please reduce the number of courses I teach during the day.

[Okie Deadhead]

08:51 PM on 01/24/2011

I agree. I also find myself up at all hours reading, grading, and what ever else has been placed in front of me that day or week.

[asjohan]

09:05 AM on 01/24/2011

No brainer. Common sense. Less is more. If 15 students per class is good for Bill Gates and Mayor Bloomberg children, the same would hold true for all children. Let's be equitable.

And it wouldn't cost any more to have smaller class sizes. Instead of spending $1 billion dollars on computers in the classroom (or the $80 million of ill-spent money on the NYCDOE ARIS computer system which a) is a duplicate of most pre-existing systems at the schools, b) is overpriced by $79,950 million, and c) doesn't work), this money could be spend on initatives, as Leonie says, works, reducing class size.

Why are our politicians and billionaire citizens who don't have children in the public school system taking an adverse interest in public education and squandering our public money like this?

[fozzi58]

01:12 PM on 01/24/2011

Great post. Fanned

[LISUPT]

09:48 PM on 01/24/2011

Those politicans who send their children to private schools know that teachers will be held accountable for their work. Ineffective teachers will be quickly dismissed. Dismissing ineffective teachers in a public school takes forever, giving adults more rights than the students' right to learn.

[researcher]

04:48 AM on 01/24/2011

"However, in modern, learner-ce­ntered facilitati­on, teacher time is consumed intensivel­y in small group contact. Thus it is set work to groups and go round the groups. Smaller is better".

this is still teacher centered learning. those small groups have not been taught to work as a small group so the teacher cannot find time to work with all the groups as needed. this takes years to teach young children this and americans dont want to take years but weeks for results. ie results oriented culture.

one nation that is student centered the teachers will say the ideal class size is 35 in america it is 12 to 15. the difference. teachers with large classes get help and time away from class. in america this would never work the extra teachers would be laid off to save money. the remaining teachers would then have 35 students to teach without the help of other teachers.

we send our new teachers out and they have to sink or swim all on their own.

we have met the enemy and it is us. we think money and small classes will solve our educational problems. neither will. no clear national objectives that are process oriented.

major paradigm shift is needed, this will not occur. not in america. the experts already know. ie positive ignorance almost impossible to over come.

[Tulka2]

11:40 PM on 01/23/2011

But.....the rich want teacher/student ratio to have no impact on learning.  Bash it enough and that square peg will go into the round hole.  Oh, my yes.

[politicscorner]

10:34 PM on 01/23/2011

"Harvard researcher Matthew Chingos, who studied class sizes, found THERE WAS NO DIRECT CORRELATION between how many Florida middle school students were in a class and their educational achievement."

I don't know all the details of Chingos' study but it may not be surprising that there was no direct correlation in his particular study. However, there is plenty of other research that I know better that shows that there is a strong relationship. I'll go with that.

[mrnormalpants]

12:16 PM on 01/24/2011

Really? What research are you talking about? (honest question, not a "gotchya!")

I think everything I've read said exactly what the Harvard dude said in this interview--small class sizes seem to help younger children and children that are more disadvantaged. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to make a significant difference. In comparisons of school interventions that have been proven to improve outcomes (high school graduation I think was the measure in the stuff I read), class size ratio is the least cost effective. You get benefit from the class size reduction, and the benefit is more than the cost, but every other option is more cost efficient. This doesn't mean we shouldn't spend $ to reduce class sizes, but rather that it should be targeted like he said.

[floyd1976]

02:58 PM on 01/24/2011

http://www.classsizematters.org/research.html is a place to start. It is presented by folks who support the reduction of class sizes (I support that reduction, by the way), so, keep that in mind.

But, go read the only study I know of that actually employed quality experimental and control groups, STAR in Tennessee. This site definitely argues that it was very effective. http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm

Having read through his paper, I'd say his conclusions are weak at best. Test scores have gone way up since CSR initiative, but, he says his data shows it was due to other things, not class size. The average reduction in class size in his treatment group was from around 25 to 22, while the untreated group was something like 20 to 19. So, classes that were treated were a reduction of 3 students (on average) while the control group was about 1.4. That's not a very large difference.
STAR compared classes of 13-17 to classes of 22-25, or, 22-25 with an aide.

As a scientists/science teacher, I think it's clear that the STAR study isn't just using subjective statistical tricks, but, has actually tried to set up a well thought out controlled experiment, not merely mined data and tried to make it fit the purpose.

I honestly don't know much about the relative cost efficiency of CSR, but, am now curious.