Music Teacher With 65-Student Classes: Gates, Guggenheim Have It Wrong

Education Week:

Take a look at this brief clip of Davis Guggenheim, speaking to what must have been one of hundreds of audiences about the heartbreaking failure of public schools, and oh, coincidentally, some film he's flacking. A woman in his audience asks how we can get rid of teacher unions--a logical question, since the theoretical framework of "Waiting for Superman" is that Unions Protect Bad Teachers Who Ruin Children's Lives.

Read the whole story: Education Week

Comments

[saskatoonie]

08:27 PM on 03/08/2011

My Mom was a teacher and then a nurse so I support Unions. Trouble is how do we make sure we are getting the very best people for the job. Some teachers are horrible at teaching. In my high school days and then in the days of my three grown children in high school there have been many teachers who were just phoning it in. Teachers who may have been good at one time, or who could learn to be better, but clearly who should not be teaching. Just because you can pass the education courses and manage to fulfill your practice teaching requirement doesn't mean you are a teacher who will be effective in the classroom. I realize it is a stressful job and that parents are an important part of the success of a child but surely there has to be some way of making sure a teacher is good at what they do! I'm all for paying good teachers much more money, if we value children and education as we say then we need to put our money where our mouth is and pay up, however better pay is not the only thing that will fix this.

[Phong Le]

08:43 AM on 03/09/2011

I think this is the crux of the debate going on now. Most people support teachers and unions and collective bargaining. But most people also realized that there are a lot of bad teachers out there. Most people are beginning to realize that the state can not fire these bad teachers because of tenure and the onerous due process clauses of the union contract.

Once can be supportive of teachers and union without supporting tenure and the Last In First Out policy of the union contracts.

[maninal2]

01:06 PM on 03/09/2011

Point to where "most people also realized that there are a lot of bad teachers out there". Where's your proof. One study. One independent survey at least. The only thing "most people" know is that this lie has been told over and over again.

Reading your post it's obvious you did not get a valid education. You should attend a remedial class or two.

[maninal2]

01:04 PM on 03/09/2011

Your post is an example of what's wrong with the debate about teachers. You present no evidence beyond your word yet support the false premise that there are a lot of bad teachers in education. It's blatantly false and the reason its false is there are 0 conclusive independent studies that support this fallacy.

The rest of your post is yet more right wing charter school talking points and not worth the time to read.

[martigras]

03:51 PM on 03/09/2011

For all of you complaining about "bad teachers" you need to know that for every bad teacher, there are at least two highly paid administrators who are not doing their jobs. Tenure and the unions do not protect a bad teacher, good evaluations do. These people are in the classroom because some administrator keeps certifying them as "satisfactory" or above. Hold administrators accountable! I know, I have been a union rep, a teacher for over 30 years and I went to the administration to tell them when a teacher needed to be fired, and they didn't do it. Happens all the time. Good teachers want to keep the profession free of those who don't do the job.

[saskatoonie]

06:09 PM on 03/09/2011

I'm not right wing, I believe most Americans would call me a socialist, all I have as any proof are the teachers that I had and that my children had. I'm not a researcher so what do you want from me, I'm discussing my personal experience. There have been some really excellent teachers in mine and my children's lives but there have also been some duds. Your inability to acknowledge that some teachers aren't fit to teach seems strident. Did you pay attention to any other part of the post?

[expanse]

01:53 PM on 03/07/2011

If you look at states who are right to work ( meaning no unions) and those who are not ( who have unions), you will see the best schools are those with unions. Period.

Unions are not the problem.

[above]

03:27 PM on 03/07/2011

I live in a right to work state and the school is still union and it has a bunch of problems.

[expanse]

03:44 PM on 03/07/2011

Unions do not have the same power in RTW states as non- RTW states. Teachers have "unions' here in TX but they are a joke. Just because something is called a union doesn't make it a true union. Don't be fooled.

[maninal2]

01:07 PM on 03/09/2011

In right to work states teacher unions have merely the ability lobby for teachers rights, working conditions and wages. They have to real world power beyond lobbying and campaigning. Even campaigning efforts are limited.

[SF TKF]

11:35 AM on 03/07/2011

65 students and one great teacher is fine if we’re going to start treating 2nd grade (or 8th grade, or any grade) like college where the students are allowed to sink or swim pretty much on their own. It’s a recipe for disaster if we expect the teacher to actually make sure each student is learning, developing, and mastering what is being taught.

[traceydouglas]

12:05 PM on 03/07/2011

Can wait to have 65 kindergarteners in my class!!!!!! [sarcasm]

[expanse]

02:59 PM on 03/07/2011

Apparently, it is all the teacher's unions fault. Get rid of them and viola! everything will be A-OK. Or better yet, take the most highly motivated students with supportive parents OUT of public schools and that should make the schools better, right? lol

Take out the 10-20% who come to school to deal drugs, bully, terrorize, and socialize who skip class, or are habitually absent and put them in these little charter schools and lets see the results. I say give Michelle Rhee, David Guggenheim and Bill Gates classes of 40 students from an urban ( not even inner city) school for a year and see how quickly they realize teachers are NOT the problem.

[Phong Le]

01:47 AM on 03/07/2011

Nancy Flanagan does not give a single concrete idea on how to close the achievement gap between whites and certain minorities. It's easy to criticize Bill Gates and Davis Guggenheim and Michelle Rhee, but at least they offer ideas about how we should approach education reform. All I'm hearing from their critics are empty words. Or defeatist argument like, "We can't solve this problem without first addressing the poverty first..."

[maninal2]

07:00 AM on 03/07/2011

They offer ideas that will lead to the demolition of the public school system in favor of for profit private schools. Who will pay the tuition for "certain minorities" then? Ignoring poverty is ignoring the primary cause. What problem can be solved if you ignore the primary cause?

[Phong Le]

07:13 AM on 03/07/2011

How do you know that the ideas "will lead to the demolition of the public school system in favor of for profit private schools?" Besides, it shouldn't be about saving the public school system. It should be about giving the best education to the most students. If that means the destruction of public schools, then so be it.

[expanse]

01:28 PM on 03/07/2011

That is the goal- to destroy "public" education and make education "for profit". Makes me sick.

[Bishop Don Wuan]

07:53 AM on 03/07/2011

As a new history teacher I would be glad to offer up an idea to make things better, at least as far as social studies is concerned. We need to start teaching our kids how to engage in meaningful discussion and debate at a younger age, instead of bombarding them with the same lectures on the same subjects every year. It is a shame how many 11th grade students come into my classroom not knowing how to do simple research or how to form and defend an opinion. These skills are essential to functioning within a strong democracy. However I take a lot of criticism from parents and administrators for not plowing my way to chapter 2,000 by Christmas, because it is essential recieve the same facts about WWII for the 6th time in their life.

I am of course not advocating for an elimination of factual based lessons in social studies, but a focus away from pure direct lecture would do these kids wonders.

[Raintree]

10:23 PM on 03/06/2011

Finally. The rich idiots with no experience in educating other's children are called out.

Its about time. Thanks Nancy!

[bsherman]

07:02 PM on 03/06/2011

What does Guggenheim know about public schools? His kids go to private schools.

[maninal2]

05:53 PM on 03/06/2011

The core of the educational problem is not teachers but concentrated wealth. Gates could help by giving back billions to the country he stole if from through monopoly business practices, outsourcing, tax grants, waivers and abatements, H10-B visas and etc.

[maxfax]

08:46 PM on 03/06/2011

Excellent points.  Public school infrastructure is deteriorating in the neighborhoods that need it most, inner cities and poor communities.

[Phong Le]

01:56 AM on 03/07/2011

If Bill Gates is to give the money back, he should give it to upper class and middle class communities, not the lower class communities. The people who predominantly bought computers were and are upper and middle class.

[maninal2]

06:55 AM on 03/07/2011

Actually the customers who bought computers along with Gates were the recipients of those tax dollars. They would have paid much more for their software if not subsidized by the taxpayers.

[DrKatePhD]

02:30 PM on 03/06/2011

So if you have TONS of money, but have NO training in education and NO experience in education other than being a student, you are now THE expert at how to solve this country's problems in education. It is truly ironic that the American people are so in love with the rich that they will believe anything they say because they have money.

The problem that I have is that he has focused the issue in the media, once again, on teachers, and nowhere do Gates or Guggenheim discuss the real issues that plague schools that score poorly on state and national tests that are mostly located in the low economic communities: crime, malnutrition, transiency, family stability, and healthcare. Rather, they claim that a “great teacher” will make up for all these problems even with large class sizes, even though there is a plethora of research that shows that all these detrimental factors negatively influence kids’ ability to do well in school. And, there is also plenty of research showing that new teachers, which he claims are better than experienced ones, are NOT more effective. In fact, if new teachers were the solution to the problem then why don’t schools with high rates of teacher turnover, such as schools in poor urban communities, score better on state assessments? Hiring all new teachers and putting them in schools with large class sizes certainly isn’t the solution.

[Phong Le]

02:01 AM on 03/07/2011

If the real issues that plague schools are "crime, malnutriti­on, transiency­, family stability, and healthcare­", are you saying that society should stop thinking about school reform and focus on the issues listed first?

[maninal2]

06:57 AM on 03/07/2011

Yes. The reality is that school performance problems are greatest in schools with the highest level of poverty. Trying to reform schools, which at this time is focused on teachers, is treating the symptom and not the cause.

[expanse]

03:09 PM on 03/07/2011

Good lord, YES.

Example: a teacher friend of mine teaches at a high school of mostly low income and high minority. Even with the good students, and there are a lot, many come to school tired because they MUST work after school usually late. This inhibits them from being able to do homework AND come to tutorials. Many of them are supporting children of their own. Summer time is when they get to work longer hours and is the ONLY reason many of them stay in school. Long summers allows them to earn a lot so they can cut their hours during the school year. Many come from neighborhoods where they feel unsafe, have no good influences and often no parent at home because the parent(s) have to work long hours just to make ends meet.

So you see, having a great teacher is all well and good. A great teacher cannot give this student the time he/she needs to study, focus on homework, keep them awake due to lack of sleep because of having to work. Now, you start to see the tip of the iceberg...

[traceydouglas]

12:17 PM on 03/07/2011

F #16 and F!!!

[nflanagan]

02:27 PM on 03/06/2011

It's gratifying to see my Education Week Teacher blog--from "Teacher in a Strange Land"--picked up by the Huffington Post. EdWeek also deserves credit for creating a spot for teacher dialogue on critical ed policy issues. So--thanks, HuffPo. More where that came from...

It's also a little unnerving to see so many inappropriate comments removed. The subject of class size--a very basic, thoroughly economic issue--MUST be informed by practicing educators. Otherwise, you get nonsense like the proposal Gates made. Followed by vitriol.

We have not--by a long chalk--determined optimum class sizes for maximum learning, subject by subject, grade by grade. We're fighting pointless battles about numbers, rather than trying to figure out how to invest in the conditions that provide genuine increases in student learning and motivation. There is no single best number--and the scary thing is that entrepreneurial types are now claiming that technology is the solution: pack the virtual classrooms, overload teachers again and label it "creative disruption."

[maninal2]

06:58 AM on 03/07/2011

Isn't optimal class size dependent on factors such as subject matter and age group in addition to resources?

[nflanagan]

08:51 AM on 03/07/2011

Absolutely.

[tultican]

01:11 PM on 03/06/2011

Authoritarianism versus humanistic reform are the underlying issues in the education reform debate. Do you believe in the views of Edward Thorndike or John Dewey? Thorndike believed in the drill and skill approach. He was also one of the inventors of the standardized test. Dewey had a much more student centered philosophy based on action and application. He believed students must construct understanding themselves. Today’s high stakes testing model of school is much more the authoritarian approach. I personally believe this approach is bad teaching. Today’s students may do better on standardized tests than students did 10 years ago, however, they do not love learning as much nor are they self directed. There used to be a miracle in American schools. Our students would have fun – act out plays, go to science fairs, hold mock legislatures and do relatively little homework – then three months after they graduated from high school a miracle would happen. They would go off to college and be the top performing students in the world.

[nflanagan]

03:56 PM on 03/06/2011

Good point, tultican. It does come down to Dewey vs. Thorndike. And Thorndike won. But--not everywhere. In private schools and other nations, Dewey reigns.

[SF TKF]

11:38 AM on 03/07/2011

There's a reason why Waldorf schools produce exceptional learners.

[Nora-Charles]

04:09 PM on 03/07/2011

I wonder if the Thorndike trend might explain the high number of kids on ADD drugs.

[saintjule]

01:04 PM on 03/06/2011

Here we go again; politicians and dilettantes experimenting with their pet theories about education.
Davis Guggenheim productions, get rid of unions and teach every one Mandarin. Michelle Rhee, fire every teacher with more than two years experience. She got three million dollars for firing 659 teachers. Dump 65 kids from the general population in a class with one teacher you will not have to fire the teacher you will have to take her out in a straight jacket.

[Dr Scott]

12:20 PM on 03/06/2011

How come I never hear about governments trying to get rid of police unions? It's not like there aren't plenty of bad cops! I'd have to guess that, judging by the number of bad cops that get caught, most cops are bad. And yet, nobody ever wants to crush their unions or even acknowledge that they have unions.

[ladyvader]

07:22 PM on 03/06/2011

Because they are afraid of what happen in Madison to happen with cops and with all the cops protesting no one will protest the city.

That is why they won't touch police or fire departments.

[Righteous Fury]

09:44 AM on 03/06/2011

As a teacher with 16 years experience it is extremely refreshing to see Gates, Guggenheimler, et al. called out for their pro-corporate, anti-children "school reform" policies.

Excellent article Ms. Flanagan! America needs to hear more rational, pro-child arguments like the ones you presented!

[hypnotoad72]

10:45 AM on 03/06/2011

10,000%^42 agreed!!! (Already fanned, but most happy to mark as favorite!)

[nflanagan]

02:13 PM on 03/06/2011

Thanks. I was pleased to see HuffPo pick it up.

[maninal2]

01:46 PM on 03/07/2011

We are too

[patililac]

04:43 AM on 03/06/2011

I think people like Gates and Guggenheim forget that they are rich people that have paid audiences or an audience of lackeys, staff, etc., who have to pay attention. Teachers have a much harder job in trying to engage young people who DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. Of course, this isn't always true not is it true that just because kids don't succeed that it is the teacher's fault. There are a myriad of reasons, one of the top ones being the socio-economic level of students and whether parents get involved. I would just love to see Gates teach junior high for a month to kids who don't know who he is. Give him 60 students. Then sit back and laugh.

[hypnotoad72]

10:49 AM on 03/06/2011

Plus, for all the talk of competition, personal responsibility, and other memes of recent I've read (and I've responded to those tangents in the past), I found some song lyrics to address a new tangent: "Someone's living the good life, tax-free, except for a girl, can't find a way to be crafty". In short, not everybody is born with a sufficient "IQ combined with EQ" (combined with ambient environment!) to do something that beats the competition, ethically or otherwise...

[hypnotoad72]

10:50 AM on 03/06/2011

And my post isn't saying "don't try", but the three dimensions of reality will trump any one-line political meme any day. In short, everybody should do the best with what they're born with, what they've got, and what they can get. Without resorting to unethical and/or illicit means to "get there".

[jackstpaul]

03:37 AM on 03/06/2011

I've volunteered in a public Jr. High a couple days a week for a year, so I have some exposure, but I'm not an expert.

Bottom line, as always, is that parents are the biggest influences on a kid, not teachers. Parents raise the kids. Teachers have their hands full with kids who are nightmares who ruin it for other kids, and teachers have their hands tied when it comes to maintaining control these days.

One kid I helped said the main topic of discussion at Christmas dinner in her family was about all the family members who are or have been in jail or prison. She's a good kid, but has her problems coming from that background. I see kids living in homeless shelters, many dysfunctional 1-parent families (and dysfunctional 2-parent), parents on drugs, etc. and the biggest problem of all, I think, the general all-purpose parents who don't engage with the school about even simple things--signing forms!--coming to conferences, checking homework. Even worse are those who take their kids' word about everything and are constantly arguing with the school for cheating their kids; just being bad role models once again.

I'm amazed at how stressful teaching is these days. Too little teaching and too much behavior monitoring and modification efforts, necessary because parents aren't doing the job.

Society/families have gone off the rails, and kids are just mirroring that.

But of course people want to blame teachers rather than themselves as parents.

[hypnotoad72]

10:54 AM on 03/06/2011

Well said. And families, those that do care about their kids, might be stuck working a number of jobs and legitimately lack the time. One of my closer friends is a single mother (she divorced a real do-nothing of a hubby and rightly so) and despite some cynicism of the ambient environment, reality shows, corporate tripe like Barney and Elmo and the rest, she keeps on telling her daughter to work at getting good grades, not cave into 'peer pressure' (about the purple dinosaur and all that), et cetera. Society is indeed off the rails, with only a handful at the top being the ones who can make the decisions but they'd rather collect others' money and run with it. Meanwhile, those at the bottom and middle are the ones being scapegoated. It's wrong.

[jackstpaul]

05:18 PM on 03/06/2011

Thanks.

You're dead-on right about the parents who care and try but are busier these days. Given those realities, we need more family-friendly workplace practices (requirements) to allow for more productive parenting re: time, flexibility, etc. Like Western Europe.

[Ghoulish]

05:09 PM on 03/06/2011

You are my new favorite person. Please continue telling it like it is.