Texas Guns On Campus Bill Moves To House Vote

A draft of the bill that would permit students to carry guns on state campuses has been approved and will head to the Texas House, the Associated Press reports.

According to the Texas Tribune, House members heard hours of testimony for and against the bill Wednesday. Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo spoke out against the bill, as did former Virginia Tech student John Woods. An advocate for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus said that the measure would help protect students on and off campus.

The AP reports that the bill has majority support from the Texas House.

WATCH: KXAN report

Comments

[bdunlap52]

02:26 AM on 03/28/2011

To everyone who thinks that the mass shootings will happen because they are allowing guns on campus.....How come it hasn't happened in Utah? Simple question. Anyone have an answer?

[JWAggie]

10:33 AM on 03/19/2011

I'm a professor in a Texas university that will be affected by this law. The faculty here are overwhelmingly against the proposal (approx 85% voted against it in a faculty poll). I haven't heard anyone suggest that fear of a mass shooting influences their daily lives or decisions. Most understand that the great deal of attention and media coverage that surround such shocking events make them more salient in our assessments of safety than their rarity should warrant.

Many do fear a greater proportion of individuals having weapons at their ready on campus. Yes, criminals and deranged mass-murderers will always disregard weapons bans. However, studies have shown that 'trivial altercation' is typically one of (if not the) most common reason for homicide--simple reputational disputes between (typically) men who had access to a weapon. Colleges are filled with individuals who are at an age of greatest impulsivity, competitiveness, testosterone levels, etc.

I understand that this is a balance. Few people would suggest that knives or bats be banned as well, despite the fact that that would further the goals proposed by gun control advocates. On the other side, few would suggest that fully automatic weapons should be allowed to be carried openly, despite the fact that that would further the goals proposed by gun rights advocates. I do not believe that the optimal balance includes concealed firearms on campus, however.

[OdinsEye]

12:01 PM on 03/19/2011

"However, studies have shown that 'trivial altercatio­n' is typically one of (if not the) most common reason for homicide--­simple reputation­al disputes "

Do you have any citations or links?

Right now, to carry concealed in Texas you need to be 21, have a background check, be finger printed, pass a course, and pay a fee.

Right now in Texas, concealed carry is actually allowed in many places on state campuses and the law does not ban concealed carry on private or non-state campuses.

Most of the students asking for more concealed carry access on campus already have concealed carry permits and already carry concealed off campus.

Keep in mind that: Most students live off campus. Most frats are off campus. Most parties occur off campus. Most altercations occur off campus.

By banning concealed carry on campus, you are also banning concealed carry to and from campus, be it a student going to/from their residence through a bad neighborhood, students going to/from work, etc. Bans on campus can adversely affect people who are not on campus.

[JWAggie]

10:58 PM on 03/19/2011

Unfortunately, I only have cites to books: Daly & Wilson 1988 Homicide; and Buss 2005 The Murderer Next Door. Each has tabulated motives for homicides suggesting trivial altercations to be one of the most common causes of male-on-male homicide.

You make good points concerning a campus ban affecting off-campus rights. On campus, risk of violence is assuredly lower, and I believe places of learning have an imperative to create an environment of safety for their students (who have voted against allowing guns in numerous polls), so perhaps some system of gun lockers at entry points could solve the problem.

[OdinsEye]

12:12 PM on 03/19/2011

"Few people would suggest that knives or bats be banned as well, despite the fact that that would further the goals proposed by gun control advocates. "

Actually there are laws about what kind of knives can be carried on campus. Depending on the state, folding knives of blade lengths can be considered concealed weapons. In Texas, the law is can be interpreted as just about any folding knife can be considered a switchblade and carrying such in your pocket constitutes carry of a concealed weapon.

"few would suggest that fully automatic weapons should be allowed to be carried openly"

Full-auto firearms are already very strictly controlled by federal laws. You cannot simply walk into a gun store or gun show and walk out with one. The paperwork alone takes about 4 months to be processed.

[JWAggie]

11:03 PM on 03/19/2011

My point is that very few advocate for a ban on all potentially lethal instruments (even if only including those whose sole purpose is to inflict harm). Furthermore, very few advocate for total rights to carry all types of lethal instruments in all locations. There is no amount of paperwork that would allow a private citizen to own a nuclear warhead. Therefore, the overarching debate is not one of dichotomous choices, but one of degree and of striking the optimal balance.

[emncaity]

12:57 PM on 03/18/2011

Wusses. What could possibly go wrong? Don't you guys know college students are models of stable, rational, non-substance-abuse-influenced behavior? Where have you been, under a rock?

Bookies are setting a line right now on the over-under for how much time it's going to take until a hung-over student brings a gun to class and shoots his girlfriend and himself in front of everybody, and maybe a few more people too, for what happened last night at the club. Or shoots the ex-boyfriend. Or shoots the ex because he's heard _he_ has a gun, so of course the new boyfriend has to bring one. Or shoots the teacher because she didn't get the grade she "deserved" and needed to graduate. Or gets despondent and decides to take a few people out before he shoots himself.

This kind of lunacy is based on the wrongful assumption that there is an enormous divide between "them" (the bad guys) and "us." But in fact, people who thought they weren't "bad guys" shoot people, under the right--or wrong--circumstances.

I honestly cannot believe I live in a state where a substantial percentage of the population thinks this idea is not a complete disaster, guaranteed to result in murder.

Would the proposed law stop a mass killing sooner or later? Probably. But mass shootings are exceedingly rare events. It'll take us no time at all to surpass the death toll from the mass shooting that never happened.

[wpnation]

02:18 PM on 03/18/2011

If the person has the gun it doesn't matter what the law says. Whether concealed carry is allowed or not allowed on campus. If a person has intent to do harm to another individual they will careless what a law states.

Concealed carry should be allowed so those that actually follow the law and don't want to get into criminal trouble will be allowed to protect themselves and exercise their rights.

[onlyaquarterdelusional]

03:33 PM on 03/18/2011

Thanks for the post. You saved me the trouble...College students, alcohol and guns. What possibly could go wrong? I wouldn't allow one of my kids to go to such a school if they gave them a full free ride.

[Matthew Aguilera]

01:41 AM on 03/19/2011

You can't drink alcohol on campus though. So I'm not sure what connection you're trying to make here. Sure college kids get drunk at parties, frat houses, and bonfires, but conceal carry is already legal at all those places and yet there hasn't been any issue. Legalizing conceal carry on campus isn't going to make students start binge drinking while on campus.

[OdinsEye]

02:08 AM on 03/19/2011

Most students live off campus. Most frat houses are off campus. Most parties happen off campus. The state ban on concealed carry on campus is not operative off campus. Texas already allows concealed carry in many places on campus.

[Broderick Crawford]

12:39 PM on 03/18/2011

This is a terrific idea. Although the gun law targets faculty and staff more than it would students the benefit cannot be underestimated. There have been shootings at colleges recently and the reason why is that they were gun free zones. Naturally these gun free laws didn't stop the shooters from bringing guns to school just everyone who could have prevented the tradegies. More guns equals less crime. During the Reagan administration a gun bill in Kennesaw, GA, required all households to have a gun and ammunition to use it. The result was a 80% reduction of crime from before the law was passed and it has remained at that same low level for nearly 30 years. Another decision overturning the hand gun ban in D.C., which is a far more urban area, resulted in a 36% reduction in violent crime the first year and crime is continuing to fall in D.C. once considered the murder capital. Another law from Morton Grove, IL, about the same time as the Kennesaw law was touted by liberals by removing guns from the general public. The local news channel had set up in the city hall to record the event that offered money for guns. After being there nearly all day without a customer a man finally walked in and turned in a rusty .22 caliber pistol that probably would never fire another round. There clearly was not much support for the effort.

[emncaity]

01:20 PM on 03/18/2011

Trotting out the tired old standard arguments. OK.

So, you'd like to _require_ all students to carry guns? The behaviorist principle of random intermittent reinforcement would suggest you'd need to, to make any comparison, even if the Kennesaw results were as you say--which they aren't (results have fallen off since the first couple of years).

As for Morton Grove, whether the sellback program did any good or not--I'd love to see you cite the source for that--there was a ban from 1981 to 2008, which, I guess, received enough "support" to exist for over a quarter century. Gun proliferation advocates love to make all kinds of false comparisons between Kennesaw and Morton Grove (without allowing for other variables such as proximity to a large city, etc.), but the fact is that comparisons of crime rates in the two towns do not demonstrate any consistent correlation between gun ownership and safety.

[Broderick Crawford]

02:06 PM on 03/18/2011

Requiring all students to carry guns I agree would not be helpful. There are conscience objectors without regard to the military and religious pacifists that should not carry guns. There are also others that have no gun control and wouldn't hit what they wanted.

Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.

"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years." Written in March, 2001...
http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

The Morton Grove, Il, law actually had 5 guns turned in as you can read.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/unknown-chicago/2011/02/bloody-maxwell.html

The law was repealed in 2008...Morton Grove is the latest Illinois city to repeal their handgun ban, following in the wake of Wilmette, IL. Given the utter ineffectiveness of handgun bans, and the injustice such laws inflict upon law abiding citizens who only wish to defend themselves from criminals.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/07/30/morton-grove-il-handgun-ban-repealed/

[emncaity]

01:24 PM on 03/18/2011

Why is it, do you think, that so many other advanced nations on the planet don't have nearly the rate of violent crime we do? Most research shows a variety of factors with several outliers (like the oft-cited Switzerland and Israel, where automatic weapons abound in the private citizenry), but the clear preponderance is unmistakable: Generally, notwithstanding outliers, the safest countries for violent crime (among advanced nations) are those where people don't generally own guns.

It IS true that we are not in the same situation as many other nations that have never had this proliferation of guns among private citizens, and that trying to eliminate guns from the law-abiding now would be more than problematic. I'm just curious what you think about why it is that other nations can have lower crime rates without guns in every house, but we can't.

[Broderick Crawford]

02:53 PM on 03/18/2011

Americans have been gravely misled about foreign gun ownership and the severity and effectiveness of foreign gun bans. It simply is not true to state that "the U.S. has more gun availability and far less restriction than any other modern industrial nation."

That honor goes to Israel where, nevertheless, murder "rates are much lower than in the United States despite greater availability of guns," writes Israeli judge Abraham Tennenbaum.

Americans have been gravely misled about foreign gun ownership and the severity and effectiveness of foreign gun bans. It simply is not true to state that "the U.S. has more gun availability and far less restriction than any other modern industrial nation."

Equally erroneous is the impression that Europe is uniformly anti-gun. Laws vary. Luxembourg totally bans all guns from civilian ownership. France, Belgium and Germany allow citizens to own handguns but these countries are more restrictive than most U.S. states. In Austria, every law-abiding citizen has a legal right to buy handguns.

And then there is Switzerland, where the laws are similar to those in Israel and gun availability is comparable to that in the U.S. In Switzerland, handgun licenses are available to any law-abiding applicant. In half the Swiss cantons, licensees are free to carry their personal handguns concealed. Beyond this freedom of ownership, every law-abiding military-age Swiss male is issued a firearm and he must keep it at home to perform his mandatory militia obligation.

[wpnation]

10:58 AM on 03/18/2011

What stops me from walking into a classroom and shooting everyone in it? Absolutely nothing. If you stop this law from from being made I could still just walk into a lecture and shoot everyone. The people with carry concealed licenses are usually the ones that you don't have to worry about. They carry their guns legally and only use it for their personal protection.

[emncaity]

01:36 PM on 03/18/2011

"Usually." Exactly. Good enough for you?

Again, this is based on the wrongful idea that there is such a big divide between "them" and "us," the good guys versus the bad guys. This leads to the notion that "training" will prevent any deaths from occurring that would be caused by legal carriers--only the word "any" sounds extreme, so we have to say things like "usually" and "most," because it's inevitable that some legal carrier is going to shoot a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a rival in class sooner or later, or is going to commit suicide and take a few people with him, or shoot people in a hung-over or drug-addled state. Hard to believe, but some college students are not stable, rational, or sober at all times, no matter how much "training" they've had.

Would you concede that at least some people are going to be killed as a result of the proposed law, if it passes? If so, what's your evidence that the number of people who will be killed is going to be lower than the number killed in the rare instances of mass shootings right now?

I understand people are looking for a solution. It's just that this isn't it.

[senseandnonsense]

10:42 AM on 03/18/2011

There is no combination quite like binge drinking and being armed. HP has an article about how depressed college students get. Now that's just what those students need. A pistol in the desk that will solve all of their problems. Oh, and I'll take that pr..k with me down the hall. Texans... we love you, but don't you have something more serious to take care of? Like you budget being $27 billion in the red?

[emncaity]

01:39 PM on 03/18/2011

In the red? Well, I never. Didn't you know we can get something for nothing, and keep running on low-to-no-taxes rhetoric?

It's just hard to even get to the full list of situations that would come up all the time in classrooms, campus unions, dorms, etc., with a proliferation of guns. We really have lost our minds. This law, which is mostly posing by tea-party goofballs, is going to get people killed, and soon, if it passes.

[1RPB1]

04:20 PM on 03/18/2011

how many faculty and staff do you actually have that are drunk at work in the library and classrooms?

[galigal]

09:50 AM on 03/18/2011

I'm speechless at the idiocy of this law...of course the NRA won't stop lobbying politicians until everyone is armed and dangerous....Twisted minds.

[pattiepcomedy]

09:26 AM on 03/18/2011

and this was more important than doing anything worthwhile for the economy because? Like a state that has its priorities.

[pattiepcomedy]

09:25 AM on 03/18/2011

Now we know the answer to 'what's it going to take to bring that mark up to an A?"

[Matthew Aguilera]

10:55 AM on 03/18/2011

Really? What kind of 21+yr. old, who has obeyed the law their entire life is going to pull out a gun for a grade? Hard work will get their "A," pulling out a gun is just going to have them sent to jail and expelled from their respective university. Your rationale is that of a child, trying to use a ridiculous anecdote to make this bill seem foolish. The existing facts speak much differently than your made up hypothetical situation. And you wonder why this bill has so much support in Texas' Congress? Because these are the arguments they have to deal with.

[emncaity]

01:47 PM on 03/18/2011

Really? Have you ever taught at a university? I have. Three of them. If you think there aren't students desperate to graduate or to play sports who wouldn't pull a gun and start shooting, especially when lit up with some substance, you're too naive to be in this discussion.

There is no end to the situations that will develop if this law passes. Despondent girlfriend, boyfriend with a rival, suicidal student who decides to take a few fellow worthless humans with him, guy finishing the fight that started at the club last night when he didn't have his piece with him, guy knows the girl in front of him carries a pistol in her backpack, which is now on the floor in front of him...on and on.

[emncaity]

01:50 PM on 03/18/2011

Your argument is based on the typical idea that there is this enormous gulf between "us" and "them." As in, the "us" includes the 21-year-old who has "obeyed the law their entire life." First of all, how do you even know that? You mean because of the background check that indicates whether he's ever been _caught_ at breaking the law? How is that going to turn up any tendencies toward violent solutions, any episodes of short temper, etc.? And even if this one guy really hasn't broken the law and doesn't generally have a short temper, how are you going to guarantee that across an entire population of people who are going to apply for permits and carry guns onto campus? Are you saying you think we won't see shootings on campus that wouldn't have happened without the law--shootings that happen because a gun was available to a legal carrier, and even though the original intent of that carrier was good, a situation turns violent, tempers flare, the substance takes over, whatever, and somebody gets shot?

Talk about "ridiculous anecdotes"; yours is ridiculous. The possibilities for disaster are endless.

What you really mean is, if you had a gun in class, you think you never would have used it to kill somebody except in self-defense or to stop a mass shooting. That may be true, or it may not have. But you can't project your own good intentions onto others.

[1RPB1]

04:14 PM on 03/18/2011

considering Texas current age limitations, and monetary limitations of getting licensed and trained and equipped etc, more faculty and staff would be armed and any given building than Students normally.

[big tom]

09:09 AM on 03/18/2011

and we thought they couldnt get any dumber.

[Terry Thompson]

08:19 AM on 03/18/2011

A young cowboy named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wonderlust who really meant no harm
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

He laughed and kissed his mom
And said your Billy Joe's a man
I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can
But I wouldn't shoot without a cause
I'd gun nobody down
But she cried again as he rode away

[Chorus]

He sang a song as on he rode
His guns hung at his hips
He rode into a cattle town
A smile upon his lips
He stopped and walked into a bar
And laid his money down
But his mother's words echoed again

[Chorus]

He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
And tried to tell himself he had become a man
A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down
And he heard again his mothers words

[Chorus]

Filled with rage then
Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw
But the stranger drew his gun and fired
Before he even saw
As Billy Joe fell to the floor
The crowd all gathered 'round
And wondered at his final words

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son...

[shryock]

07:41 AM on 03/18/2011

well, evidently texas college students are far more sober and responsible than students elsewhere.
evidently they all take gun safety and marksmanship and moral responsibility classes as well.
the military at least trains the 18 year olds on how to use and take care of a gun.
who will be training these incoming freshmen?
will that be required now?
old men arming their irresponsible offspring for some incomprehensible reason seems to be the american way lately.

[1RPB1]

04:23 PM on 03/18/2011

"incoming freshmen" would need to be over 21 years old, never have even gotten in trouble for foul language or playing music too loud and other qualifications.

Mostly this law allows faculty and staff to be armed.

[emncaity]

03:19 AM on 03/18/2011

Jesus God, get me outta this state. Somebody give me a job somewhere else, will ya?

While you're at it, get one for my wife, too, who's an officer with the local sheriff's department. I give it six months or less before on-campus police here have to call in SO and PD people.

The backwardness here never ends. Seriously.

[edchuckndoug]

12:35 AM on 03/18/2011

Gee, if I was ever going to send my child to a college in Texas, you can forget that now!

[1RPB1]

04:17 PM on 03/18/2011

I was going to head to Utah or CO for my third degree after the last two weeks on campus armed assaults, armed kidnapping, carjacking and armed robbery, but will go to a Texas law school after this passes.

[wonmean]

11:34 PM on 03/17/2011

I wish the police force in Texas the best.

Dangerous work.

[1RPB1]

04:18 PM on 03/18/2011

Ray Hunt, the 2nd vice-president of the Houston Police Officers' Union, the largest police union in the state of Texas, spoke out in favor of legalizing licensed concealed carry (of handguns) on Texas college campuses and dismissed the notion that the presence of armed citizens would somehow cause chaos or confusion during or following a campus shooting.

He also mentioned that the union had been originally fairly anti-CHL, fearing shootings of CHL-holders by police amongst other things. Upon seeing that that hadn't occurred at all, they were happy to throw their support behind the concept of CHL in general, and they now specifically support concealed-carry on campus.

Also Sam Marcos P.D. and other departments support it; they run into CHLs often and know the type who get "legally" armed.

[wonmean]

04:34 PM on 03/18/2011

I don't really care if a police officer's union head favors it.

To me, more guns on the floor means more possible bullets that can fly during an incident.
And more chances for a police officer to be hit.

I just want them to be safe when they do their work.