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Pastor Loses Job Amidst Rob Bell Debate

Rob Bell Debate

By TOM BREEN   03/24/11 06:10 AM ET   AP

DURHAM, N.C. -- When Chad Holtz lost his old belief in hell, he also lost his job.

The pastor of a rural United Methodist church in North Carolina wrote a note on his Facebook page supporting a new book by Rob Bell, a prominent young evangelical pastor and critic of the traditional view of hell as a place of eternal torment for billions of damned souls.

Two days later, Holtz was told complaints from church members prompted his dismissal from Marrow's Chapel in Henderson.

"I think justice comes and judgment will happen, but I don't think that means an eternity of torment," Holtz said. "But I can understand why people in my church aren't ready to leave that behind. It's something I'm still grappling with myself."

The debate over Bell's new book "Love Wins" has quickly spread across the evangelical precincts of the Internet, in part because of an eye-catching promotional video posted on YouTube.

Bell, the pastor of the 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., lays out the premise of his book while the video cuts away to an artist's hand mixing oil paints and pastels and applying them to a blank canvas.

He describes going to a Christian art show where one of the pieces featured a quote by Mohandas Gandhi. Someone attached a note saying: "Reality check: He's in hell."

"Gandhi's in hell? He is? And someone knows this for sure?" Bell asks in the video.

In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.

"This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus' message of love, peace, forgiveness and joy that our world desperately needs to hear," he writes in the book.

For many traditional Christians, though, Bell's new book sounds a lot like the old theological position of universalism – a heresy for many churches, teaching that everyone, regardless of religious belief, will ultimately be saved by God. And that, they argue, dangerously misleads people about the reality of the Christian faith.

"I just felt like on every page he's trying to say 'It's OK,'" said Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler at a forum last week on Bell's book held at the Louisville institution. "And there's a sense in which we desperately want to say that. But the question becomes, on what basis can we say that?"

Bell argues that hell has assumed an outsize importance in Christian teaching, considering the word itself only appears in the New Testament about 12 times, by his count.

"For a 1st-century Jewish rabbi, where you go when you die wasn't the most pressing question," Bell told The Associated Press. "The question was how can you enter into the shalom and peace of God right now, this day."

Bell denies he's a universalist, and his exact beliefs on what happens to people after death are hard to pin down, but he argues that such speculation distracts people from an urgent point. In his telling, hell is something freely chosen that already exists on earth, in everything from war to abusive relationships.

The near-relish with which some Christians stress the torments of hell, Bell argues, keep many believers needlessly afraid of a loving God, and repel potential Christians who might otherwise be curious about the faith's teachings.

"The heart of the Christian story is that God is love," he said. "But when you hear the word 'Christian,' you don't necessarily think 'Oh, sure, those are the people who don't stop talking about God's love.' Some other things would come to mind."

About the only thing everyone agrees on is that this is not a new debate in Christianity. It stretches to antiquity, when Christianity was a persecuted sect in the Roman Empire, and the third century theologian Origen developed a theory that contemporary critics charged would mean that everyone, even the devil himself, would ultimately be saved. Church leaders eventually condemned ideas they attributed to Origen, but he has had a lasting influence across the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant traditions.

Those traditions often disagree, even internally, on what awaits souls after death. The Catholic Church, which has a formal process for identifying souls in heaven through canonization, pointedly refrains from saying that anyone is without a doubt in hell. Protestants reject the concept of purgatory, in which sins can be atoned for after death, but disagree on other questions. The lack of consensus is enabled partly by ambiguities in the Bible.

Evangelical opposition to Bell is exemplified in a succinct tweet from prominent evangelical pastor John Piper: "Farewell, Rob Bell."

Page Brooks, a professor at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, thinks Bell errs in a conception of a loving God that leaves out the divine attributes of justice and holiness.

"It's love, but it's a just love," Brooks said. "God is love, but you have to understand you're a sinner and the only way to get around that is through Christ's sacrifice on the cross."

Making his new belief public is both liberating and a little frightening for Holtz, even though his doubts about traditional doctrines on damnation began long before he heard about Rob Bell's book.

A married Navy veteran with five children, Holtz spent years trying to reconcile his belief that Jesus Christ's death on the cross redeemed the entire world with the idea that millions of people – including millions who had never even heard of Jesus – were suffering forever in hell.

"We do these somersaults to justify the monster god we believe in," he said. "But confronting my own sinfulness, that's when things started to topple for me. Am I really going to be saved just because I believe something, when all these good people in the world aren't?"

Gray Southern, United Methodist district superintendent for the part of North Carolina that includes Henderson, declined to discuss Holtz's departure in detail, but said there was more to it than the online post about Rob Bell's book.

"That's between the church and him," Southern said.

Church members had also been unhappy with Internet posts about subjects like gay marriage and the mix of religion and patriotism, Holtz said, and the hell post was probably the last straw. Holtz and his family plan to move back to Tennessee, where he'll start a job and maybe plant a church.

"So long as we believe there's a dividing point in eternity, we're going to think in terms of us and them," he said. "But when you believe God has saved everyone, the point is, you're saved. Live like it."

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DURHAM, N.C. -- When Chad Holtz lost his old belief in hell, he also lost his job. The pastor of a rural United Methodist church in North Carolina wrote a note on his Facebook page supporting a new b...
DURHAM, N.C. -- When Chad Holtz lost his old belief in hell, he also lost his job. The pastor of a rural United Methodist church in North Carolina wrote a note on his Facebook page supporting a new b...
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Slacktoo
Oh, grow up, OO7
03:30 AM on 04/17/2011
Figures. Some Christian tries to be reasonable, and he's shunned by other Christians.
06:36 PM on 04/19/2011
no, he misleads people into a PC like idea of who scripture that will cause them harm down the road
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soul American
11:34 AM on 04/15/2011
Why would god say, "believe in Jesus instead of believe in me"?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soul American
11:34 AM on 04/15/2011
You can believe in god without believing in Jesus.
New Yorker
Roman Catholic, Anti-DEATH, Combat Vet, Sinner
12:56 PM on 04/16/2011
You just would not be a Christian if you make that mistake.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soul American
10:44 AM on 04/15/2011
For a few of evangelical christians, Bell is so wrong here. For them the christian god is eviI. A Jealous vindictive mass murderer...but they just call it love..thats christian love for them.

So for these christians, the "christian love" produced the HI0caust, SIavery, Iynchings, BI00d Iibel etc etc. Love Love Love..

The Q is, Do we really need this christian love?
New Yorker
Roman Catholic, Anti-DEATH, Combat Vet, Sinner
01:02 PM on 04/16/2011
See, this is the problem with you living in the world and being ruled by the Father of Lies. You fail to see the truth. Evangelizing is bringing God's truth to others. To comment on that you need to know the truth, and your post indicates you simply do not. The power of evil brought this world the evils you list. God will abolish evil. Christ is God, and the one God the Father gave dominion over all the Earth, forever. These are the last days of evil, it has been defeated. Satan is desperate as his time grows short, don't allow his lies to divert you from the facts. You need the Love of Christ more than you need food and water because the love of Christ will sustain your life throughout eternity, food and water only keeps your mortal body alive for a brief time before it dies.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soul American
07:09 PM on 04/16/2011
Go away deviI!
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
02:23 AM on 04/11/2011
This point was brought home to me years ago, when I was first made new in Christ. My SIL said " Do you really think I'm going to hell because I don't believe what you believe?" At first I was all like "Yea" (though I did not say that to her) and then I realized...it's not up to me who goes to heaven or hell. So I've been hands off ever since. I share my faith freely but do not believe that someone failing to take my message to heart condemns them to anything.

And if I am wrong, well, that's between me and my Maker.
04:57 PM on 04/11/2011
Is your message is "no one comes to the Father, except throught me" (Jesus) and "no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3)? Those are Jesus very words.HE was clear with people about it

Do you know what the Bible teaches about salvation? Please learn it so you can answer such point blank questions honestly, And also be honest with yourself as to whether your reluctance to answer is really coming from fear of not seeming to be a nice guy or something like that.That's a stumbling block.
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FoxReincarnated
Red Ninja Warrior
05:00 PM on 04/09/2011
It sucks he lost his job, but it would suck worse if he was allowed to swindle the masses into Christianity.
11:20 PM on 04/06/2011
pastors of Christian churches who are teaching heresy cannot remain Pastors, they will lead their congregations into error and harm their eternal souls which could lead them to the place he doesnt believe in which is hell. So he needed to be fired.
04:55 PM on 04/05/2011
If one commits an eternal sin, against an eternal God, one deserves an eternal punishment. Thank The Most High for mercy and grace though (YHWH YaHuWshua ha Mashiyach)!
05:51 PM on 04/04/2011
Rob Bell is only right about the title(Love wins), in fact, it's better said that Love won in John 3:16. God loved mankind even though they were in a sinful state. He could have wiped man out but he loved us too much too do that, so we were given another chance to reconcile with our creator, through his son Jesus. The Bible is clear, whoever believes will not perish but have everlasting(spiritual) life.What does that mean. It means believing what the Bible says about us, man kind. That we are in a fallen state from where we were(Adam and Eve). That because of this fall man has become sinful, and that because of this sin we are seperated from a Holy God because we are not holy. God offered man redemptive salvation, an act of love, so he would not go to hell. God made his move, now it is up to man to make his, and accept the gift of love in his son Jesus Christ to gain eternal life and not eternal death. If people reject God's son than God cannot be blamed for those that chose to believe in something else. Is Ghandi in heaven? Only if he accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. People, do not ignore that hell is a very real place(Lazerus and the rich man). Rob Bell is in error. Pray for this man that God will open his eyes before it's too late.
03:12 AM on 04/25/2011
Well, since "every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD" and Jesus is "reconciling ALL things" to himself it would seem that Gandhi will in fact be reconciled back to God along with the rest of creation, as scripture promises.

Please do not mistake your perverted tradition of a God that tortures to be scriptural.
02:20 PM on 04/25/2011
I'm not sure if you read my entire comment, but I did mention that if Ghandi accepted Jesus Christ as the ONLY LORD and SAVIOR, then in fact he would be in heaven. By tradition HIndus have many gods, and GOD demands worship only for himself. Hindus only considered JESUS a good man, not God in the flesh that died and ressurected. Through that death a person is reconciled to God, if they receive him as the ONLY Lord and Savior. Unfortunately even though Jesus sought to reconcile himself to mankind through his death, not all will beleive. Many who reject Jesus for who he really is will pay the price of Hell. The Loving GOD of the bible, not the torturing GOD as you so eloquently put it, demonstrated his LOVE by sending His son, so if a person goes to hell, it is simply because of the rejection of his son as Lord and Savior. A person dooms his/herself not God. Every knee will bow and confess is right. This scripture only implies that no matter how, whether voluntarily or by force, all will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord of all. I wonder who is the perverted one here since you try to twist scripture to get your point across. It's obvious you lack understanding of the sciptures.
04:50 PM on 03/30/2011
There are no ambiguities in the Bible. Hell is real, and only those who fail to submit to God's plan of salvation in Christ Jesus will be there. Real theologians need not to quarrel in discussion over these things, just let the Word speak for itself in its right division.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
conscioushope
"There is no darkness but ignorance." Shakespeare
08:39 AM on 03/31/2011
Says you......

Not others; not me.
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DTOM1776
Veritas Liberabit Vos
04:25 AM on 04/06/2011
Nope.

Says GOD

It doesn't matter what you think or if you believe it or not. It is still the same.

"Truth" doesn't need your agreement to still be the truth :)
07:07 PM on 04/09/2011
conscioushope--NO, not so says Nick Dansby, but so says the BIble.

Go to biblegateway.com and enter the word "hell" into the search feature. Up will come every Bible verse that contains that word 'hell' in it. Now you can see for yourself that the BIble itself confirms the existence of hell. No person is making it up, its in scripture.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
rdavidw
06:15 PM on 04/06/2011
The Messiah called people back... to the commands... not to be saved but how to live... knowing what was done for our salvation does not allow us decide who is and who isn't HIS. The following is saying our saying "We know Him" isn't enough. Having been saved we must walk the walk. In 321 AD, the believers changed, the times and dates where redone.
Please look and see WHO is walking HOW.
http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/messianicchristian.html

"We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His Commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His Word, (Elohim)'s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Yahushua did." 1 John/Yahuchanan 2:3-6
08:35 PM on 03/28/2011
But didn't John Wesley believe in an intermediate state between heaven and hell where a person could continue to grow in holiness? So even the father of Methodism didn't believe in a black and white heaven and hell.
New Yorker
Roman Catholic, Anti-DEATH, Combat Vet, Sinner
10:08 AM on 03/29/2011
Purgatory is where souls who have been forgiven are cleansed so they can be in the presence of God. The stain of sin is like you being filthy, dressed in rags, and stinking of sin. Penance, suffering for a time in Purgatory will cleanse you of the stink of sin so you may stand in the presence of God and enter heaven. That is how a saved soul is Sanctified. Those destined for hell never go to Purgatory.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius.
09:46 AM on 03/31/2011
I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church has dumped the whole Purgatory thing. Which is good, because whoever was cruel enough to tell grieving parents that their unbaptized baby will be there should be the person who rots in hell.
07:10 PM on 04/09/2011
This is sa catholic beleif that does not exist in the Bible.
05:12 PM on 03/28/2011
From all that I've witnessed from man from my short years living here on earth, I hope that God does have some type of punish system for some of these crimes that people have committed. All too often, we mix forgiveness with retribution. Even though we have forgiven, doesn't mean that the punish will not be enforced. Man continues to act out even at his/her own perilthat's what "hell" should me to us...STOP IT!
New Yorker
Roman Catholic, Anti-DEATH, Combat Vet, Sinner
10:27 AM on 03/29/2011
Not to worry ! Jesus said, " Blessed are those who Humger and Thirst for Justice, for They Shall Be Satisfied " Everybody gets what's coming to them, no exceptions. Every sin will be made known, no matter how small. Fear of God stops a good man from doing evil. Those who did not Fear God are pretty obvious: John Wayne Gacy, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Adolf Hitler, Dr. Mengele, Bloody Joe Stalin, etc.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius.
03:06 PM on 03/29/2011
Yet, those same people could have truly repented and seeked forgiveness and they would have been forgiven by God through Jesus.

Just think, you could be strolling around heaven and run into Sadaam Hussein....
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius.
03:06 PM on 03/29/2011
"Seeked"? How about "sought"? Yikes!
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Gunfighter
Husband, father, follower of Christ, lawman.
04:38 PM on 03/28/2011
I believe in God. I also believe that God is too big to be put in some small box that we, who can't really hope to understand God in fullness, would like to fit him in.

The whole concept of exclusion isn't Godly, it is human... and I think that we have to be very careful about it.
New Yorker
Roman Catholic, Anti-DEATH, Combat Vet, Sinner
10:30 AM on 03/29/2011
God warns us. Sin unrepented is what gets us excluded. Not seeking Him in truth, with our hearts can allow evil to rule us. Pray every day, do good, and be good, and you will always be included. St. Peter said, " In Truth I see that all are acceptable to God who fear Him and act uprightly". So Fear God, and Act uprightly, and you will not be excluded.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
cosmicmom
Mothering the Universe since 1950
11:06 AM on 04/12/2011
Why are you so doggedly desperate to defend God and God's actions? I think H/She is big enough not to get excited about our theological/stances and to love us immensely in spite of all this inane chatter.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
conscioushope
"There is no darkness but ignorance." Shakespeare
08:42 AM on 03/31/2011
Yes, I'm with you!

fanned!
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Holden Mirror
(R) Tom Coburn should be gone
04:02 PM on 03/28/2011
Where do you think the GOP/Tea Party learned about the advantages of using FEAR to spread a message?

You betcha...... the church.
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Gunfighter
Husband, father, follower of Christ, lawman.
04:22 PM on 03/28/2011
Actually, they learned it from the historical examples or militarism and fascism.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
conscioushope
"There is no darkness but ignorance." Shakespeare
04:26 PM on 03/28/2011
Right on, Holden.

faved, since a fan!