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Libyan Rebels Close On Key Gaddafi Stronghold Of Sirte

Libya Fighting

First Posted: 03/28/11 05:44 PM ET Updated: 05/28/11 06:12 AM ET

BIN JAWWAD, Libya — Rebel forces bore down Monday on Moammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, a key government stronghold where a brigade headed by one of the Libyan leader's sons was digging in to defend the city and setting the stage for a bloody and possibly decisive battle.

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The opposition made new headway in its rapid advance westward through oil towns and along stretches of empty desert highway toward Sirte and beyond to the big prize – the capital, Tripoli.

But the rebels remain woefully outgunned by Gaddafi's forces, who swept the insurgents from positions in eastern Libya until the international intervention forced government troops to withdraw.

Rebels acknowledged they could not have held their ground without international air and cruise missile strikes. Libya state television reported new NATO airstrikes after nightfall, targeting "military and civilian targets" in the cities of Garyan and Mizda about 40 miles and 90 miles respectively from Tripoli.

NATO insisted that it was seeking only to protect civilians and not to give air cover to an opposition march. But that line looked set to become even more blurred. The airstrikes now are clearly enabling rebels bent on overthrowing Gaddafi to push toward the final line of defense on the road to the capital.

There was growing criticism from Russia and other countries that the international air campaign is overstepping the bounds of the U.N. resolution that authorized it. The complaints came at a critical transition in the campaign from a U.S. to a NATO command. That threatens to hamper the operation, as some of the 28 NATO member nations plan to limit their participation to air patrols, rather than attacks on ground targets.

On Monday, rebel fighters moved about 70 miles (110 kilometers) west Monday from the coastal oil terminal and town of Ras Lanouf to just beyond the small town of Bin Jawwad, where their push was halted by government fire along the exposed desert highway and the heavily mined entrance to Sirte.

The rebels are currently just 60 miles (100 kilometers) from Sirte, the bastion of Gaddafi's power in the center of the country.

Take control of that, and there's only the largely rebel-held city of Misrata – and then empty desert – in the way of the capital. Sirte could therefore see some of the fiercest fighting of the rebellion, which began on Feb. 15.

"Gaddafi is not going to give up Sirte easily because straightaway after Sirte is Misrata, and after that it's straight to Gaddafi's house," said Gamal Mughrabi, a 46-year-old rebel fighter. "So Sirte is the last line of defense."

He said there are both anti- and pro-Gaddafi forces inside Sirte.

Some residents were fleeing Sirte, as soldiers from a brigade commanded by Gaddafi's son al-Saadi and allied militiamen streamed to positions on the city's outskirts to defend it, witnesses said. Sirte was hit by airstrikes Sunday night and Monday morning, witnesses said, but they did not know what was targeted.

The city is dominated by members of the Libyan leader's Gadhadhfa tribe. But many in another large Sirte tribe – the Firjan – are believed to resent his rule, and rebels are hoping to encourage them and other tribes there to help them.

"There's Gaddafi and then there's circles around him of supporters. Each circle is slowly peeling off and disappearing," said Gen. Hamdi Hassi, a rebel commander speaking at the small town of Bin Jawwad, just 18 miles (30 kilometers) from the front. "If they rise up, it would make our job easier."

Sirte, which houses a significant air and military base, is crucial both for its strategic position and its symbolic value. Over the years, Gaddafi has made it effectively Libya's second capital, building up what had been a quiet agricultural community into a city of 150,000 with lavish conference halls where Arab and African summits were held.

Fighting in such a densely populated area is likely to complicate the rebels' advance and add to the ambiguity of the NATO-led campaign, authorized by a Security Council resolution to take all necessary measures to protect civilians.

In Russia, which abstained from the U.N. vote, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said strikes on Gaddafi's forces would amount to taking sides in what he called Libya's civil war, and thus would breach the mandate that was initially envisaged as establishing a no-fly zone only to protect civilians.

But the inclusion of language allowing "all necessary means" opened the door to airstrikes and ship-fired cruise missile attacks on Gaddafi's forces to stop attacks on cities and cut supply lines.

And Pentagon officials are looking at plans to expand the firepower and airborne surveillance systems, including using the Air Force's AC-130 gunship armed with cannons that shoot from the side doors, as well as helicopters and drones. That weaponry might allow for more precision in urban fighting, while drawing forces closer to the combat.

NATO's commander for the operation, Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard of Canada, insisted his mission was clear, saying every decision was designed to prevent attacks on civilians. "Our goal is to protect and help the civilians and population centers under the threat of attack," he said.

Britain and France, which has been the most vocal supporter of the rebellion and is the only Western nation to officially recognize its political leaders, added their voices to those appeals.

In a joint statement, British Prime Minister David Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France said Gaddafi loyalists should abandon the dictator and side with those seeking his ouster.

"We call on all his followers to leave him before it is too late," the two leaders said. "We call on all Libyans who believe that Gaddafi is leading Libya into a disaster to take the initiative now to organize a transition process."

The Gulf nation of Qatar on Monday recognized Libya's rebels as the legitimate representatives of the country – the first Arab state to do so. Qatar is also one of only two Arab states – the other is the United Arab Emirates – that is contributing fighter planes to the air mission.

Gaddafi is not on the defensive everywhere. His forces continued to besiege Misrata, the main rebel holdout in the west and Libya's third-largest city. Residents reported fighting between rebels and loyalists who fired from tanks on residential areas.

Libyan officials took foreign journalists on a tour of the city's outskirts but not into the center, indicating government control did not extend far. Explosions and gunfire echoed through empty streets lined with burned out tanks and bullet-scarred buildings.

___

Associated Press writers Hadeel al-Shalchi in Misrata, Libya; Christopher Torchia in Istanbul; and Paula Jelinek and Tom Raum in Washington contributed to this report.

@ BreakingNews : Anti-Gadhafi fighters in Misurata say 28 people had died in the city in the past three days - Al Jazeera http://bit.ly/ecR130

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Gaddafi forces have reportedly captured the wife of Moussa Koussa, the former Foreign Minister who defected while in England. Reports the Telegraph:

The wife of the Libyan foreign minister who defected to Britain earlier this week has been seized by Colonel Gaddafi and is being interrogated by his "internal security" officials, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

She is thought to have been captured amid eyewitness reports of a fierce gunfight at Col Gaddafi's central Tripoli compound as the regime stepped in to stop further defections.

Yesterday, local residents recalled how the most fierce firefight yet seen in central Tripoli had erupted within hours of the regime confirming that the Foreign Minister had defected.

Read the entire report here.

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NBC's Ann Curry tweets that the U.S. will move to support missions only:

@ AnnCurry : NBCNews: US military will stop flying COMBAT missions over Libya, only SUPPORT missions incl reconnaissance, starting April 2.

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Channel Four correspondent Jonathan Rugman spoke with Libya's former Prime Minister Abdul Ati al-Obeidi, who said that Gaddafi is trying to set up talks to stop the killing. During the interview, Obeidi told Rugman, "We are trying to talk to the British, the French and the Americans to stop the killing of people. We are trying to find a mutual solution."

Watch a report from Channel Four on the Libya talks below:

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Despite complaints to the contrary, the U.S. Senate actually did support a no-fly zone over Libya. The AP reports:

Some lawmakers are grousing loudly that President Barack Obama sent the nation's military to Libya without Congress' blessing. They're ignoring a key fact: The Senate a month ago voted to support imposing a no-fly zone to protect civilians from attacks by Col. Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

With no objections, the Senate on March 1 backed a resolution strongly condemning "the gross and systematic violations of human rights in Libya" and urging the U.N. Security Council to take action, "including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory."

There was no recorded vote. It was simply approved by unanimous consent.

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Reuters reports:

@ Reuters : FLASH: Libyan government rejects rebels' conditions for ceasefire, says troops will not leave Libyan cities

Reuters adds:

"They are asking us to withdraw from our own cities. .... If this is not mad then I don't know what this is. We will not leave out cities," said Mussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman.

Read more here.

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Robert Haddick, writing at Foreign Policy, argues that the rebels need combat skills much more than they need heavy artillery. He writes:

On March 30, it was reported that CIA officers were in Libya with the rebels, making an assessment of their situation and possibly directing airstrikes in support of their fighters. We can gather from open sources much of what these intelligence officers are likely to report. As a military force, Libya's rebels are a disorganized rabble and seem incapable of preparing and holding defensive positions or maneuvering effectively against rudimentary enemy resistance. The rebels need boot camp, fundamental infantry training, and the development of some battlefield leaders, not a new stockpile of weapons.

Those Western leaders whose plan currently consists of hoping that Qaddafi will be spontaneously overthrown need to think again. Absent a Western invasion of the country, the rebel force is the only means of removing Qaddafi, and the rebels will need many months or even years of training before they are capable of defeating loyalist ground units and marching all the way to Tripoli.

Read the entire piece here.

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Gunfire has been reported in Gaddafi's compound. Reuters reports:

Sustained gunfire rang out near Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's heavily fortified compound in Tripoli on Friday and residents said they saw snipers on rooftops and pools of blood on the streets.

It was not clear what triggered long bursts of machinegun and automatic gunfire that echoed around the city center for about 20 minutes and stopped before dawn.

Cars were heard speeding along central Tripoli streets, their tires screeching on the asphalt. Distant shouting or chanting also was heard.

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A journalist who was picked up by Libyan security details his ordeal. Here's an excerpt of his story from Reuters:

We sat quietly. I turned to Chris, a London-based Canadian I had worked with in Iraq. I said I thought they would kill us.

A soldier opened the lock and the rear door swung open again. We looked down at the back of a station wagon which had been opened up to reveal some blankets. I thought they would perhaps drive us away. Maybe they were going to free us?

But a closer look showed feet poking under the blankets.

Soldiers then pulled aside the coverings and hauled three handcuffed young men up and in beside us. When we were locked in again, they told us they were Libyan university students.

Later, several soldiers came in. "Who are you?" one asked me. We are Reuters journalists, I said. He is our driver. We have permission. We were invited here by your government.

The soldier shook his head. "Bad time to be a journalist in Libya." Reporters were part of a foreign conspiracy against Libya, he said. But then he made it clear that if they decided we were not journalists but spies, that would be worse.

"If you tell us the truth, it should be fine, God willing. But if we catch you lying, oh we will show no mercy. None."

Read the rest here.

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Libyan rebels have made a deal to sell oil to Qatar. Reports the AP:

A plan to sell rebel-held oil to buy weapons and other supplies has been reached with Qatar, a rebel official said Friday, in another sign of deepening aid for Libya's opposition by the wealthy Gulf state after sending warplanes to help confront Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

It was not immediately clear when the possible oil sales could begin or how the arms would reach the rebel factions, but any potential revenue stream would be a significant lifeline for the militias and military defectors battling Gadhafi's superior forces.

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Gaddafi forces are attacking home in Misrata, according to rebels. Reuters reports:

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are mounting an intense artillery bombardment of rebel-held Misrata and pro-Gaddafi troops are attacking shops and homes in the city center, a rebel spokesman said.

Misrata is the last big rebel stronghold in western Libya but after weeks of shelling and encirclement, government forces appear to be gradually loosening the rebels' hold on the city, despite Western air strikes on pro-Gaddafi targets there.

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The Associated Press reports:

Libya's rebels will agree to a cease-fire if Moammar Gadhafi pulls his military forces out of cities and allows peaceful protests against his regime, an opposition leader said Friday.

Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, head of the opposition's interim governing council based in Benghazi, said the rebels' condition for a cease-fire is "that the Gadhafi brigades and forces withdraw from inside and outside Libyan cities to give freedom to the Libyan people to choose and the world will see that they will choose freedom."

Read more here.

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Libyan rebels moved towards the key oil town of Brega on Friday, as conditions drifted towards a stalemate. Reuters reports:

Libyan rebels moved heavier weaponry toward the oil town of Brega on Friday and sought to marshal rag-tag units into a more disciplined force to regain momentum against Muammar Gaddafi's regular army.

While military action appeared to drift toward stalemate, coalition diplomatic efforts focused on breaking Gaddafi's hold on power in Tripoli. London urged Gaddafi loyalists to abandon him, following the defection of Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa.

Rebels said neither side could claim control of Brega, one of a string of oil towns along the Mediterranean coast that have been taken and retaken several times by each side in recent weeks. The insurgents have failed to hold gains, even when helped by Western air strikes.

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From Al Jazeera:

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle says Libya's crisis cannot be resolved through military means and all sides must get to work on a political resolution.

Westerwelle said on a visit to China that a first step must be a cease-fire that is heeded by Gaddafi.

More details here.

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BBC News reports that U.S. senators are drafting legislation that would authorize the use of force in Libya. The senators include John Kerry and John McCain.

The 1973 War Powers Act says US armed forces must start to withdraw after 60 days unless explicitly authorised to fight by Congress. In the case of Libya, that mark would fall on 20 May, Mr Kerry said.

More here.

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The National Journal reports that the U.S. may be on a slippery slope when it comes to the Libyan mission:

It’s an old question, but we’ve been through enough of these interventions now --from Vietnam to Kosovo to Afghanistan--to insist on asking it once again: Is the United States on a slippery slope in Libya, one that will lead to American military involvement on the ground? The evidence, on balance, is that under President Obama the U.S. presence is going to expand quickly—but covertly.

Read the full article here.

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Reuters reports that Libya's top oil official, Shokri Ghanem, has denied rumors that he left the country.

Al Jazeera television listed Ghanem as one the figures who had left Libya, but Ghanem said in a phone call, "This is not true, I am in my office and I will be on TV in a few minutes."

More here.

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BBC News reports that London Mayor Boris Johnson, a Conservative, offers his concerns about involvement in Libya:

"I am worried that what we may be doing inadvertently is entrenching support for the mad colonel... I do worry that if we get into a stalemate, if the rebels don't seem to be making the progress we hope they would make, then we should be brave enough to say to ourselves our policy isn't working."

More here.

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The New York Times reports that as a second top Libyan official, Ali Abdussalam el-Treki, defects from the Gaddafi government, fears mount within the regime.

The capital of Tripoli was alive with rumored defections on Thursday, with the prime minister and the speaker of Parliament, among other top figures, said at various times to be quitting the country. None of those reports could be verified. But the authorities were taking no chances, assigning guards to senior officials to assure they cannot leave, a former Libyan official said.

More here.

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BBC News reports that, according to U.S. Admiral Mike Mullen, international air strikes have been hampered by bad weather over the past few days.

According to AFP, Mullen says that they have not been able to see through the weather to identify targets. "And that has more than anything else reduced the impact... reduced the effectiveness, and has allowed the regime forces to move back to the east."

More here.

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Al Jazeera reporter Anita McNaught discusses the defections in Libya:

"We got word from sources outside of Tripoli that there were at least four senior figures from the Gadaffi administration who were perhaps in Tunisia, or certainly outside the country and not intending to go home. These were, last night as we understood it, the current head of the Intelligence Service, the Oil Minister (and I'll mark a question mark with that in a minute), the Secretary of the General People's Congress, and the Deputy Foreign Minister."

More here.

WATCH:

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BBC News reports on apparent threats in London by a pro-Gaddafi protestor:

Libyan state television has broadcast footage showing a pro-Gaddafi protestor in London yanking open his jacket and vowing to turn himself an "explosive bomb", a video on YouTube shows. The incident is said to have occurred at the protest near the Foreign Office in Whitehall on 29 March. In the clip, which has been circulated widely on social media, the man refers to anti-Gaddafi protestors as "traitors and rats", and exhorts Libyans to "return to the Koran."

More here.

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The Guardian reports that Mohammed Ismail, a senior aide to Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam, has traveled to London for confidential talks with British officials.

It is suggested that the regime may be looking for an exit strategy. There is speculation that Gaddafi's sons, namely Saif al-Islam, Saadi and Mutassim, are looking for a way out.

Although he has little public profile in either Libya or internationally, Ismail is recognised by diplomats as being a key fixer and representative for Saif al-Islam.

According to cables published by WikiLeaks, Ismail has represented the Libyan government in arms purchase negotiations and acted as an interlocutor on military and political issues.

"The message that was delivered to him is that Gaddafi has to go and that there will be accountability for crimes committed at the international criminal court," a Foreign Office spokesman told the Guardian , declining to elaborate on what else may have been discussed.

More here.

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The Associated Press/Huffington Post report:

Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan continued his defense of embattled Libyan strongman Moammar Gaddafi during a press conference in Chicago Thursday, and slammed the United States' decision to get involved in the conflict.

The 78-year-old leader of the Chicago-based organization spoke at Mosque Maryam, the Nation of Islam headquarters, according to the Chicago Tribune.

"It is a terrible thing for me to hear my brother called all these ugly and filthy names when I can't recognize him as that," Farrakhan said of Gaddafi, according to the Tribune. "Even though the current tide is moving against him ... how can I refuse to raise my voice in his defense? Why would I back down from those who have given so much."

Farrakhan has publicly defended Gaddafi a number of times since the Libyan uprising began. He reportedly visited the Libyan leader in the 1980s, and told attendees of a Nation of Islam convention in February that the United States should stay out of Libya's affairs.

Full report here.

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Breaking News reports on Twitter that according to the UK Independent, Britain is in talks with ten more Gaddafi officials about possible defection.

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BBC News provides the account of a witness in Tripoli.

According to the witness, any anti-government dissidents who spoke out publicly were deemed by officials as mentally ill and thus detained indefinitely. Because of this, the witness is not surprised that Iman al-Obeidi was immediately described as mentally ill last week.

She is not the first case of rape we have heard of here.

I have heard of two other cases in recent weeks. One of them was of a Moroccan housekeeper who was left behind by her employers as they fled to a safe house because half their family members had been detained.

The story that circulated through word-of-mouth was that security forces stormed the house she was staying in with the intention of detaining the rest of the family. Finding her alone there instead, they raped her.

Read the full account here.

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AP reports:

A top Libyan diplomat now supporting the opposition says most high-rank Libyan officials are trying to defect but are under tight security and having difficulty leaving the country.

Ibrahim Dabbashi, Libya's deputy U.N. ambassador, told The Associated Press on Thursday that Libya's U.N. Mission, which now totally supports the opposition, knew two days in advance that Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa planned to defect.

"This is a big blow to the regime," Dabbashi said.

He said the mission had been waiting for about 10 days for Ali Abdessalam Treki, a former foreign minister and U.N. General Assembly president named by Moammar Gadhafi to be the new U.N. ambassador, to defect. Treki announced his defection Thursday in Cairo.

More here.

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Libya's Transitional National Council has released a statement on counter-terrorism. The council says that it condemns and will combat all forms of terrorism.

Regarding al-Qaeda, the council states:

It emphasizes also its full commitment to the implementation of the relevant Security Council resolutions on Counter-Terrorism, including the resolutions on the Sanctions concerning al-Qaeda and Taliban, with the full commitment to all measures and sanctions concerning any individual or entity associated with al-Qaeda and Taliban as determined by the Sanctions Committee.

The council pledges to help the United Nations and cooperate with it's counter-terrorism task forces.

Read the full statement here.

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HuffPost's Saki Knafo reports:

Earlier this week, rebel forces in Libya fought their way to the outskirts of Sirte, a seafront city about the size of Tallahassee. The day before, pushing westward along the coast from Ajdabiya, they'd recaptured the oil towns of Brega and Ras Lanuf -- Sirte, experts said, was the last major obstacle standing in the rebels' path to the capital city of Tripoli.

Sirte. Before Sunday, few outside Libya had heard of it. Now it's being portrayed as the key to Libya's hopes for democracy, the fulcrum on which the nation's fate would turn. Its importance can be explained partly by location, its proximity to the capital. But it mattered for other reasons, too, reasons that reveal a lot about a conflict with complexities outsiders are only beginning to grasp.

Read the full story here.

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According to The New York Times, U.K. Foreign Secretary William Hague denies that Moussa Koussa was offered any immunity to lure him to leave Gaddafi's regime. Hague reports that he is voluntarily speaking with British officials.

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said on March 3 that he would investigate “alleged crimes against humanity committed in Libya since 15 February, as peaceful demonstrators were attacked by security forces.” He placed Mr. Koussa second after Colonel Qaddafi on a list of “some individuals with formal or de facto authority, who commanded and had control over the forces that allegedly committed the crimes.”

More here.

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BIN JAWWAD, Libya — Rebel forces bore down Monday on Moammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, a key government stronghold where a brigade headed by one of the Libyan leader's sons was digging in to ...
BIN JAWWAD, Libya — Rebel forces bore down Monday on Moammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, a key government stronghold where a brigade headed by one of the Libyan leader's sons was digging in to ...
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Dec2086Lover
After all you are my wonderwall.
04:37 PM on 03/29/2011
Hope the rebels move into and secure more towns and eventually Tripoli.Better for Libya and the world,so people can move on.Gaddafi has go,whether by exile or with bullets to his end.Enough of his nonsense!
12:30 PM on 03/29/2011
Read what Obama said here -

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/obama-2007-“the-president-does-not-have-power-under-the-constitution-to-unilaterally-authorize-a-military-attack-in-a-situation-that-does-not-involve-stopping-an-actual-or-imminent-threat-to/
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
12:28 PM on 03/29/2011
You know what's sad? The mods keep erasing the quote from Obama Dec. 20, 2007, where he distinctly says we do not have the constitutional authority to do what he is doing. Since it is being censored, just Google it - Obama Dec 20, 2007.
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single malt
I can't spell. I blame msn.
12:20 PM on 03/29/2011
A single person lighting himself on fire can change so much. Love it, hate it, life is truly a gong show.
12:04 PM on 03/29/2011
Democractic Afghan and Iraq.

How did it work out for them?

A few million dead, the Kill Team(s) loom freely, torture, no water, no food, no electrcity.

Yeah Democracy for Afghan and Iraq.

Yeah ....right.
12:56 PM on 03/29/2011
Yes, and even more people were killed in Iraq by Hussein before he was stopped and eventually killed at the will of the Iraqi people and by the Iraqi people. No one, except the individuals who start them, like wars. And in time, the people of Afghanistan and Iraq will come to understand the freedoms democracy provides. In the current Iraqi situation, democracy was shoved down their throats and that was wrong. You cannot do a 180 degree turn (from a dictatorship to democracy) overnight. It will take a few generations of citizenry and the people of Iraq, I believe, will come to understand why foreign military involvement was necessary.
02:06 PM on 03/29/2011
They have to get their on their own; if it takes a couple centuries then so be it. Different parts of the world are at vastly-varying stages of cultural development.
12:04 PM on 03/29/2011
Lies Lies Lies and more Lies.

"Democracy in Libya" is a heap of b.s.

The country will be a client state of the US and their oil resources will flow out at pennies on the dollar. And yeah, the people will get fooled in to thinking they are getting something better. Look at Iraq, it's current state is disgusting at best. The people lived better under Saddam then under US occupation.

That is the truth.
12:03 PM on 03/29/2011
Why is it so many righties want to leave a rightist, inhumane, multibillionaire tyrant in power against the will of his people? Ooops.... forgot... that is a core political value of theirs.... dictatorships by plutocracy but, failing that, some kind of tyranny. They want a one-party system, theirs of course, question the patriotism of any who do not agree with them, and demand all follow their social/political/economic agenda - or else. At the moment they only have petty tyrants like Walker and LePage, but they are working on it.

No wonder they see no reason to remove the likes of Ghadaffi from power.... let him slaughter those who cross him.....after all.... he's the boss with the bucks!!
02:07 PM on 03/29/2011
Pick your tyrant. The US state department has openly supported thug dictators much worse than Gaddafi.
03:44 PM on 03/29/2011
And how many of them have had their people revolt and cry for assistance?
11:51 AM on 03/29/2011
Those "helpless" don't look helpless at all.

The US, UK, France are doing some big time meddling. We are in 2011 now. It's unbelievable that I will see this type of colonial behaviour take place.

Shame on US and UK - and France.
12:48 PM on 03/29/2011
While I don't believe that the majority of citizens of the UK, France, and US are pleased by NATO's involvement, as well assistance provided by some other middle eastern countries, in Libya, let us not forget that Gaddafi has not only been using his own military against Libyan citizens this year, but for many, many years. As long as ground forces are not utilized and no colonialism (occupation and foreign domination) occurs, then I am completely fine with the use of U.N. intervention to ward off Gaddafi. No country, regardless of what type of governmental structure it may possess (US-styled democracy, parliamentary, or even a single party system) should ever be allowed to commit mass murders against their own citizens.

Has everyone forgotten what Hitler did to his own German citizens, as well as to Jews, Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, UK, etc.? And the world turned away again while the atrocities in Darfur occurred and millions were slaughtered. All of these wars, and I could list many more) have resulted in the killing of millions of people by their own governments. I personally praise the U.N. resolution to stop this atrocity early enough that just maybe thousands of lives can be saved.

You may say "shame on US and UK - and France", I believe that all of the countries involved in this effort are doing the right thing and doing it early. Rock On!
hgus
It's not about the economy, stupid
11:46 AM on 03/29/2011
I am a California Liberal and am in no-way conflicted about this engagement.

Gaddafi is a crazed lunatic and who had announced his plans to slaughter perhaps as many as 50,000 people and we had the ability to stop it. And we did.

It may not feel like we accomplished much: no statue was pulled down, the leader has been arrested and hanged, no elections have been had and Gaddafi is still in control of Tripoli. All this is true. But it is also true that 25-50,000 (or more) people are alive today because of our efforts.

To me, in the last 2 weeks, Obama has built a coalition around the world, passed a UN resolution and saved tens of thousands of lives. And he did so, so far, with out the loss of one American life.

To me, i say: "That's a good 2 weeks of work, Mr. President".
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media4me
12:42 PM on 03/29/2011
Have him tell those talking points to congress.
02:00 PM on 03/29/2011
Mission accomplished, then?
hgus
It's not about the economy, stupid
02:57 PM on 03/29/2011
Mission Accomplished- Yes and no.

We have stopped the slaughter of up to 50,000 unarmed civilians. Mission accomplished.

But the next issue is certainly less clear, and based on our actions, and our words, most of that decision is in the hands of the people of Libya.

As we talk about this issue, it is often about what is best for us. This has to be incredibly scary for a Libyan bakers, brick layer and teachers that are picking up a gun for the first time in their lives to defend themselves and their families and for a chance, JUST A CHANCE, at freedom.

Perhaps its just me, but, that type of courage is inspiring.
11:36 AM on 03/29/2011
We need that female reporter, and the grainy images, from Orwell's 1984, who would breathlessly report on the African war front. We could have updates, which require mandatory viewing, from Big Bro, and Rachel Madnow could be the voice.

"...a boot stamping on a human face -- for ever..."
11:52 AM on 03/29/2011
Awesome post...1984..very accurate.

But instead of the teleprompt, it's the Internet and TV propaganda machines.

Will my comment be deleted or re-written?
11:28 AM on 03/29/2011
obama is aiding and abetting Al Qaeda.
11:53 AM on 03/29/2011
I don't think the World will ever be at Peace with the US doing things like this.
11:26 AM on 03/29/2011
I dont get it, i dont get it, i dont get it. Why are we over there at all? I understand Ghaddafi is hated here in the west because of his terrorist activities years ago and I understand that innocents have been killed in his country, but this is a civil war. No one jumped in when Sherman pillaged through Georgia marching to the sea and we turned out just fine. I mean, do we always send our troops to aide civilians in danger? Darfur, Palestine, Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone, do these ring a bell? I think it is utterly irresponsible to assist in the overthrow of Ghaddafi. Just because an Arab nation is fighting for democracy does not mean it is a net gain for the US, so why are we jumping to risk the lives of our own and precious capital for this? The people of Lebanon voted for Hezbollah, Palestinians elected Hamas, there is no telling what type of leader is positioned to take over if Ghaddafi is defeated. With Ghaddafi we pretty much knew we had him pacified after he saw how we handled Sadam. Now we are all too eager to roll the dice...with China's bank roll.
hgus
It's not about the economy, stupid
12:00 PM on 03/29/2011
UrbanPatriot-

Why are we there? Because we can.

You talk about Darfur, Palestine, Northern Ireland et al as if all the situations are the same. They are not. They are not even the same as what happened in Egypt or what is happening in Yemen or Manama.

In all of the situations that you described, the protestors are in a city with no clear lines. We do not have intelligence that tells us of massive slaughter that is about to occur. The government sources are not clearly visible and mixed with civilians, therefore we cannot use air power. The other engagements would require that we put "boots on the ground" and with our two other wars, we do not have the troops and the money to do that. Even if we did have the troops and the money to invade those countries, we live in a democracy and the country would not support an invasion and the loss of life that would come with it. In other words- We don't do it -because we CAN'T.

Libya is different. Gaddafi announced his plans to slaughter the population of an entire city. He ordered his military to assemble ranks and had his tanks move into the open to prepare for the slaughter.

For very low cost (money and lives) we can save those peoples lives.

We are there, because; We are the United States of America, the leader of the free world, and we CAN stop a slaughter.
01:39 PM on 03/29/2011
I hear you, I really do, but:

I dont think that we should be the police department of the world.

I do understand that each scenario that I presented is different, the connection is that innocent civilians died (MILLIONS in Darfur). For you to build your pro-intervention theme around those who would be "slaughered", while arguing why we couldn't in Darfur, makes it difficult for me to come over to your way of thinking as my heart would like to do. My head does not separate one innocent civilian from another.

If left up to me we would make sure that no innocent civilians anywhere on the map would ever be slaughtered. However, innocent people become forgotten opportunity costs of our policy decisions every single day. Thats a harsh reality that I have a hard time dealing with, but the world doesn't fit neatly into the good vs. evil frame you present.

My question is a bit deeper than it may seem at face value. I know we can, but Why Libya?


What about the repercussions of our actions in Libya? You conveniently failed to respond to my concerns of who will take Ghaddafi's position. Would you feel as comfortable about stepping in if it lays the foundation for another tyrannical regime who promotes terror and the destruction of the west? Or should WE choose their leader since WE CAN? We have no idea who the "rebels" are and no one seems to be asking the question.
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SweetestTaboo
12:05 PM on 03/29/2011
The President was/is in a no-win situation. If he had stood by and done nothing while the Libyan rebels cried out for help and while people were being murdered, then the U.S. would be seen by some as accomplices to the murder. If we go in and help the Libyans to push Gaddafi back then we are seen by some as warmonger. So Obama picked his poison and decided to be seen as a warmonger. Either way, he was going to get hammered.
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Ngonyama
Major prolation, perfect mode
11:13 AM on 03/29/2011
The African Union?? That gang of thugs? Most of them are not a hair better than the Q-man.

We should stick to plan A, plan B and plan C: die in Libya.
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yourbuffers
Reformed liberal: now a open,minded libertarian wi
10:35 AM on 03/29/2011
one side liberals say "no war" on the other sider side they say "help the helpless" whats a true lib to do...boy thats what you get when you have a kneejerk ideology. of course liberals won't see the irony in that.. they will make some excuse.
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VirginiaJeff
Waiting for the "Jennifer Government" movie
10:40 AM on 03/29/2011
 
The "excuse" is, we are not a monolith -- unlike conservatives, who insisted that whatever Bush decided, we should salute him smartly or risk being labeled traitorous.
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Ron Booth
Educate, Agitate, Organize!
11:18 AM on 03/29/2011
The sad reality is that those who marched lock step with Bush without ever considering questioning for a moment our invasion of Iraq were traitors to the truth.
11:41 AM on 03/29/2011
Yeah but, this time it's "different". Better. Nicer. More "humanitarian".
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Ron Booth
Educate, Agitate, Organize!
11:14 AM on 03/29/2011
Liberals and EVERYONE should be 'conflicted' over the use of our military. Its a far healthier situation than every time there is any sort of crisis (especially a manufactured on as in Iraq) or someone rattles a sabre that we just start screaming 'take them out' and jump on our war horses and go charging off into battle.

I support our intervention in Libya but at the same time and for good reason I'm 'conflicted' about it too. There's nothing wrong with that, its called being thoughtful and weighing the consequences.