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Libya War: Rebels Battle Outside Gaddafi Hometown Of Sirte

Libya Rebels Gaddafi Hometown

AP/The Huffington Post   First Posted: 03/29/11 08:47 AM ET Updated: 05/29/11 06:12 AM ET

BIN JAWWAD, Libya -- Libyan government tanks and rockets blunted a rebel assault on Moammar Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte on Tuesday and drove back the ragtag army of irregulars, even as world leaders prepared to debate the country future in London.

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Rockets and tank fire sent Libya's rebel volunteers in a panicked scramble away from the front lines, before the opposition was able to bring up truck mounted rocket launchers of their own and return fire.

The two sides traded salvos over the small hamlet of Bin Jawwad amid the thunderous crash of rockets and artillery shells as plumes of smoke erupted from the town. The steady drum of heavy machine gun fire and the pop of small arms could also be heard above the din.

"There aren't a lot of us in Bin Jawwad right now," said Faisal Ali, a 20 year-old-rebel who had retreated from the town. "If (Gadhafi) has enough firepower and forces using tanks, he will surely take over Bin Jawwad," he added, noting that the rebels' special forces, one of their few trained units, had not yet retreated.

The latest rebel setback emphasizes the see-saw nature of this conflict and how the opposition is still no match for the superior firepower and organization of Gadhafi's forces, despite an international campaign of deadly airstrikes.

A U.N.-mandated no-fly zone and campaign of strikes by the U.S. and its allies helped rebel forces regain territory lost of the past week, when they were on the brink of defeat by government forces.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, United States Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, the Arab League, the African Union and around 40 foreign ministers were scheduled to join talks in London, seeking to ratchet up pressure on Gadhafi.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said several nations planned to put forward a deal which would propose a cease-fire, exile for Gadhafi and a framework for talks, between Libya's tribal leaders and opposition figures, on the country's future.

In a sign of emerging ties between the opposition and the international community, a senior U.S. administration official said it would soon send an envoy to Libya to meet with leaders of the rebels.

The official said American diplomat Chris Stevens will travel to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi in the coming days to establish better ties with groups seeking to oust the longtime Libyan leader. The move doesn't constitute formal recognition of the opposition.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal planning, as Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was preparing to meet Libyan opposition envoy Mahmoud Jibril in London.

In an open letter to the international community, meanwhile, Gadhafi called for a halt to the "monstrous assault" on Libya and maintained that that the rebels were supported by the al-Qaida terrorist network.

"What is happening now is providing a cover for al-Qaida through airstrikes and missiles to enable al-Qaida to control North Africa and turn it into a new Afghanistan," he said, accusing the international community of carrying out genocide against the Libyans.

The rebels remain woefully outgunned by Gadhafi's forces and it is unclear how they can take the stronghold of Sirte without further aggressive international air support.

NATO has insisted that it was seeking only to protect civilians and not to give air cover to an opposition march. But that line looked set to become even more blurred. The airstrikes are clearly the only way the rebels bent on overthrowing Gadhafi are going to continue their push to the capital.

There was growing criticism from Russia and other countries that the international air campaign is overstepping the bounds of the U.N. resolution that authorized it. The complaints came at a critical transition in the campaign from a U.S. to a NATO command. That threatens to hamper the operation, as some of the 28 NATO member nations plan to limit their participation to air patrols, rather than attacks on ground targets.

Russia's envoy to NATO, Ambassador Dmitry Rogozin urged the alliance on Tuesday not to bomb Libyan ground targets when it assumes command of the campaign, saying NATO should restrict itself only to enforcing the arms embargo and the no-fly zone.

Rebels made it to Nawfaliyah some 60 miles (100 kilometers) from Sirte on Monday, but Tuesday's bombardment indicated they have been driven back to the hamlet of Bin Jawwad, a few dozen miles (kilometers) to the east.

"Gadhafi's forces are firing from Wadi al-Ahmar, including grad rockets, artillery and mortars," said rebel fighter Adel Sirhani, referring to a strategic valley outside Sirte. "It's very intense."

In a scene reminiscent of the rebels' retreat last week, panicked volunteers jumped into their pickup trucks and attempted to speed away from the bombardment kicking up dust clouds and choking the narrow coastal highway in a mad scramble of vehicles.

Sirte is dominated by members of the Libyan leader's Gadhadhfa tribe and was used as a second capital by Gadhafi. It's loss would be a symbolic blow and open the way to the capital Tripoli.

"This is their last defensive line they will do everything to protect it," explained rebel fighter Twate Monsuri, 26. "It's not Gadhafi attacking us, he's just defending himself now."

Fighting in such a densely populated area is likely to complicate the rebels' advance and add to the ambiguity of the NATO-led campaign, authorized by a Security Council resolution to take all necessary measures to protect civilians.

Gadhafi forces continued to besiege Misrata, the main rebel holdout in the west and Libya's third-largest city. Residents reported shelling by government tanks of residential areas, with three people killed.

Libyan officials took foreign journalists on a tour of the city's outskirts but not into the center, indicating government control did not extend far. Explosions and gunfire echoed through empty streets lined with burned out tanks and bullet-scarred buildings.

The U.S. Navy, meanwhile, reported that two of its aircraft and a guided missile destroyer attacked a number of Libyan coast guard vessels that were "firing indiscriminately" at merchant ships in the port of Misrata, rendering them inoperable.

One of Libya's top officials, meanwhile, abruptly made a "private visit" to Tunisia late Monday, according to the official news agency there.

Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim in Tripoli insisted on Tuesday that Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa's visit was not a defection.

____

Associated Press writers David Stringer and Bradley Klapper in London, Maggie Michael in Cairo and Hadeel al-Shalchi in Tripoli contributed to this report.

@ BreakingNews : Anti-Gadhafi fighters in Misurata say 28 people had died in the city in the past three days - Al Jazeera http://bit.ly/ecR130

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Gaddafi forces have reportedly captured the wife of Moussa Koussa, the former Foreign Minister who defected while in England. Reports the Telegraph:

The wife of the Libyan foreign minister who defected to Britain earlier this week has been seized by Colonel Gaddafi and is being interrogated by his "internal security" officials, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

She is thought to have been captured amid eyewitness reports of a fierce gunfight at Col Gaddafi's central Tripoli compound as the regime stepped in to stop further defections.

Yesterday, local residents recalled how the most fierce firefight yet seen in central Tripoli had erupted within hours of the regime confirming that the Foreign Minister had defected.

Read the entire report here.

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NBC's Ann Curry tweets that the U.S. will move to support missions only:

@ AnnCurry : NBCNews: US military will stop flying COMBAT missions over Libya, only SUPPORT missions incl reconnaissance, starting April 2.

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Channel Four correspondent Jonathan Rugman spoke with Libya's former Prime Minister Abdul Ati al-Obeidi, who said that Gaddafi is trying to set up talks to stop the killing. During the interview, Obeidi told Rugman, "We are trying to talk to the British, the French and the Americans to stop the killing of people. We are trying to find a mutual solution."

Watch a report from Channel Four on the Libya talks below:

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Despite complaints to the contrary, the U.S. Senate actually did support a no-fly zone over Libya. The AP reports:

Some lawmakers are grousing loudly that President Barack Obama sent the nation's military to Libya without Congress' blessing. They're ignoring a key fact: The Senate a month ago voted to support imposing a no-fly zone to protect civilians from attacks by Col. Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

With no objections, the Senate on March 1 backed a resolution strongly condemning "the gross and systematic violations of human rights in Libya" and urging the U.N. Security Council to take action, "including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory."

There was no recorded vote. It was simply approved by unanimous consent.

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Reuters reports:

@ Reuters : FLASH: Libyan government rejects rebels' conditions for ceasefire, says troops will not leave Libyan cities

Reuters adds:

"They are asking us to withdraw from our own cities. .... If this is not mad then I don't know what this is. We will not leave out cities," said Mussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman.

Read more here.

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Robert Haddick, writing at Foreign Policy, argues that the rebels need combat skills much more than they need heavy artillery. He writes:

On March 30, it was reported that CIA officers were in Libya with the rebels, making an assessment of their situation and possibly directing airstrikes in support of their fighters. We can gather from open sources much of what these intelligence officers are likely to report. As a military force, Libya's rebels are a disorganized rabble and seem incapable of preparing and holding defensive positions or maneuvering effectively against rudimentary enemy resistance. The rebels need boot camp, fundamental infantry training, and the development of some battlefield leaders, not a new stockpile of weapons.

Those Western leaders whose plan currently consists of hoping that Qaddafi will be spontaneously overthrown need to think again. Absent a Western invasion of the country, the rebel force is the only means of removing Qaddafi, and the rebels will need many months or even years of training before they are capable of defeating loyalist ground units and marching all the way to Tripoli.

Read the entire piece here.

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Gunfire has been reported in Gaddafi's compound. Reuters reports:

Sustained gunfire rang out near Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's heavily fortified compound in Tripoli on Friday and residents said they saw snipers on rooftops and pools of blood on the streets.

It was not clear what triggered long bursts of machinegun and automatic gunfire that echoed around the city center for about 20 minutes and stopped before dawn.

Cars were heard speeding along central Tripoli streets, their tires screeching on the asphalt. Distant shouting or chanting also was heard.

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A journalist who was picked up by Libyan security details his ordeal. Here's an excerpt of his story from Reuters:

We sat quietly. I turned to Chris, a London-based Canadian I had worked with in Iraq. I said I thought they would kill us.

A soldier opened the lock and the rear door swung open again. We looked down at the back of a station wagon which had been opened up to reveal some blankets. I thought they would perhaps drive us away. Maybe they were going to free us?

But a closer look showed feet poking under the blankets.

Soldiers then pulled aside the coverings and hauled three handcuffed young men up and in beside us. When we were locked in again, they told us they were Libyan university students.

Later, several soldiers came in. "Who are you?" one asked me. We are Reuters journalists, I said. He is our driver. We have permission. We were invited here by your government.

The soldier shook his head. "Bad time to be a journalist in Libya." Reporters were part of a foreign conspiracy against Libya, he said. But then he made it clear that if they decided we were not journalists but spies, that would be worse.

"If you tell us the truth, it should be fine, God willing. But if we catch you lying, oh we will show no mercy. None."

Read the rest here.

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Libyan rebels have made a deal to sell oil to Qatar. Reports the AP:

A plan to sell rebel-held oil to buy weapons and other supplies has been reached with Qatar, a rebel official said Friday, in another sign of deepening aid for Libya's opposition by the wealthy Gulf state after sending warplanes to help confront Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

It was not immediately clear when the possible oil sales could begin or how the arms would reach the rebel factions, but any potential revenue stream would be a significant lifeline for the militias and military defectors battling Gadhafi's superior forces.

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Gaddafi forces are attacking home in Misrata, according to rebels. Reuters reports:

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are mounting an intense artillery bombardment of rebel-held Misrata and pro-Gaddafi troops are attacking shops and homes in the city center, a rebel spokesman said.

Misrata is the last big rebel stronghold in western Libya but after weeks of shelling and encirclement, government forces appear to be gradually loosening the rebels' hold on the city, despite Western air strikes on pro-Gaddafi targets there.

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The Associated Press reports:

Libya's rebels will agree to a cease-fire if Moammar Gadhafi pulls his military forces out of cities and allows peaceful protests against his regime, an opposition leader said Friday.

Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, head of the opposition's interim governing council based in Benghazi, said the rebels' condition for a cease-fire is "that the Gadhafi brigades and forces withdraw from inside and outside Libyan cities to give freedom to the Libyan people to choose and the world will see that they will choose freedom."

Read more here.

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Libyan rebels moved towards the key oil town of Brega on Friday, as conditions drifted towards a stalemate. Reuters reports:

Libyan rebels moved heavier weaponry toward the oil town of Brega on Friday and sought to marshal rag-tag units into a more disciplined force to regain momentum against Muammar Gaddafi's regular army.

While military action appeared to drift toward stalemate, coalition diplomatic efforts focused on breaking Gaddafi's hold on power in Tripoli. London urged Gaddafi loyalists to abandon him, following the defection of Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa.

Rebels said neither side could claim control of Brega, one of a string of oil towns along the Mediterranean coast that have been taken and retaken several times by each side in recent weeks. The insurgents have failed to hold gains, even when helped by Western air strikes.

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From Al Jazeera:

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle says Libya's crisis cannot be resolved through military means and all sides must get to work on a political resolution.

Westerwelle said on a visit to China that a first step must be a cease-fire that is heeded by Gaddafi.

More details here.

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BBC News reports that U.S. senators are drafting legislation that would authorize the use of force in Libya. The senators include John Kerry and John McCain.

The 1973 War Powers Act says US armed forces must start to withdraw after 60 days unless explicitly authorised to fight by Congress. In the case of Libya, that mark would fall on 20 May, Mr Kerry said.

More here.

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The National Journal reports that the U.S. may be on a slippery slope when it comes to the Libyan mission:

It’s an old question, but we’ve been through enough of these interventions now --from Vietnam to Kosovo to Afghanistan--to insist on asking it once again: Is the United States on a slippery slope in Libya, one that will lead to American military involvement on the ground? The evidence, on balance, is that under President Obama the U.S. presence is going to expand quickly—but covertly.

Read the full article here.

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Reuters reports that Libya's top oil official, Shokri Ghanem, has denied rumors that he left the country.

Al Jazeera television listed Ghanem as one the figures who had left Libya, but Ghanem said in a phone call, "This is not true, I am in my office and I will be on TV in a few minutes."

More here.

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BBC News reports that London Mayor Boris Johnson, a Conservative, offers his concerns about involvement in Libya:

"I am worried that what we may be doing inadvertently is entrenching support for the mad colonel... I do worry that if we get into a stalemate, if the rebels don't seem to be making the progress we hope they would make, then we should be brave enough to say to ourselves our policy isn't working."

More here.

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The New York Times reports that as a second top Libyan official, Ali Abdussalam el-Treki, defects from the Gaddafi government, fears mount within the regime.

The capital of Tripoli was alive with rumored defections on Thursday, with the prime minister and the speaker of Parliament, among other top figures, said at various times to be quitting the country. None of those reports could be verified. But the authorities were taking no chances, assigning guards to senior officials to assure they cannot leave, a former Libyan official said.

More here.

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BBC News reports that, according to U.S. Admiral Mike Mullen, international air strikes have been hampered by bad weather over the past few days.

According to AFP, Mullen says that they have not been able to see through the weather to identify targets. "And that has more than anything else reduced the impact... reduced the effectiveness, and has allowed the regime forces to move back to the east."

More here.

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Al Jazeera reporter Anita McNaught discusses the defections in Libya:

"We got word from sources outside of Tripoli that there were at least four senior figures from the Gadaffi administration who were perhaps in Tunisia, or certainly outside the country and not intending to go home. These were, last night as we understood it, the current head of the Intelligence Service, the Oil Minister (and I'll mark a question mark with that in a minute), the Secretary of the General People's Congress, and the Deputy Foreign Minister."

More here.

WATCH:

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BBC News reports on apparent threats in London by a pro-Gaddafi protestor:

Libyan state television has broadcast footage showing a pro-Gaddafi protestor in London yanking open his jacket and vowing to turn himself an "explosive bomb", a video on YouTube shows. The incident is said to have occurred at the protest near the Foreign Office in Whitehall on 29 March. In the clip, which has been circulated widely on social media, the man refers to anti-Gaddafi protestors as "traitors and rats", and exhorts Libyans to "return to the Koran."

More here.

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The Guardian reports that Mohammed Ismail, a senior aide to Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam, has traveled to London for confidential talks with British officials.

It is suggested that the regime may be looking for an exit strategy. There is speculation that Gaddafi's sons, namely Saif al-Islam, Saadi and Mutassim, are looking for a way out.

Although he has little public profile in either Libya or internationally, Ismail is recognised by diplomats as being a key fixer and representative for Saif al-Islam.

According to cables published by WikiLeaks, Ismail has represented the Libyan government in arms purchase negotiations and acted as an interlocutor on military and political issues.

"The message that was delivered to him is that Gaddafi has to go and that there will be accountability for crimes committed at the international criminal court," a Foreign Office spokesman told the Guardian , declining to elaborate on what else may have been discussed.

More here.

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The Associated Press/Huffington Post report:

Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan continued his defense of embattled Libyan strongman Moammar Gaddafi during a press conference in Chicago Thursday, and slammed the United States' decision to get involved in the conflict.

The 78-year-old leader of the Chicago-based organization spoke at Mosque Maryam, the Nation of Islam headquarters, according to the Chicago Tribune.

"It is a terrible thing for me to hear my brother called all these ugly and filthy names when I can't recognize him as that," Farrakhan said of Gaddafi, according to the Tribune. "Even though the current tide is moving against him ... how can I refuse to raise my voice in his defense? Why would I back down from those who have given so much."

Farrakhan has publicly defended Gaddafi a number of times since the Libyan uprising began. He reportedly visited the Libyan leader in the 1980s, and told attendees of a Nation of Islam convention in February that the United States should stay out of Libya's affairs.

Full report here.

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Breaking News reports on Twitter that according to the UK Independent, Britain is in talks with ten more Gaddafi officials about possible defection.

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BBC News provides the account of a witness in Tripoli.

According to the witness, any anti-government dissidents who spoke out publicly were deemed by officials as mentally ill and thus detained indefinitely. Because of this, the witness is not surprised that Iman al-Obeidi was immediately described as mentally ill last week.

She is not the first case of rape we have heard of here.

I have heard of two other cases in recent weeks. One of them was of a Moroccan housekeeper who was left behind by her employers as they fled to a safe house because half their family members had been detained.

The story that circulated through word-of-mouth was that security forces stormed the house she was staying in with the intention of detaining the rest of the family. Finding her alone there instead, they raped her.

Read the full account here.

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AP reports:

A top Libyan diplomat now supporting the opposition says most high-rank Libyan officials are trying to defect but are under tight security and having difficulty leaving the country.

Ibrahim Dabbashi, Libya's deputy U.N. ambassador, told The Associated Press on Thursday that Libya's U.N. Mission, which now totally supports the opposition, knew two days in advance that Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa planned to defect.

"This is a big blow to the regime," Dabbashi said.

He said the mission had been waiting for about 10 days for Ali Abdessalam Treki, a former foreign minister and U.N. General Assembly president named by Moammar Gadhafi to be the new U.N. ambassador, to defect. Treki announced his defection Thursday in Cairo.

More here.

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Libya's Transitional National Council has released a statement on counter-terrorism. The council says that it condemns and will combat all forms of terrorism.

Regarding al-Qaeda, the council states:

It emphasizes also its full commitment to the implementation of the relevant Security Council resolutions on Counter-Terrorism, including the resolutions on the Sanctions concerning al-Qaeda and Taliban, with the full commitment to all measures and sanctions concerning any individual or entity associated with al-Qaeda and Taliban as determined by the Sanctions Committee.

The council pledges to help the United Nations and cooperate with it's counter-terrorism task forces.

Read the full statement here.

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HuffPost's Saki Knafo reports:

Earlier this week, rebel forces in Libya fought their way to the outskirts of Sirte, a seafront city about the size of Tallahassee. The day before, pushing westward along the coast from Ajdabiya, they'd recaptured the oil towns of Brega and Ras Lanuf -- Sirte, experts said, was the last major obstacle standing in the rebels' path to the capital city of Tripoli.

Sirte. Before Sunday, few outside Libya had heard of it. Now it's being portrayed as the key to Libya's hopes for democracy, the fulcrum on which the nation's fate would turn. Its importance can be explained partly by location, its proximity to the capital. But it mattered for other reasons, too, reasons that reveal a lot about a conflict with complexities outsiders are only beginning to grasp.

Read the full story here.

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According to The New York Times, U.K. Foreign Secretary William Hague denies that Moussa Koussa was offered any immunity to lure him to leave Gaddafi's regime. Hague reports that he is voluntarily speaking with British officials.

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said on March 3 that he would investigate “alleged crimes against humanity committed in Libya since 15 February, as peaceful demonstrators were attacked by security forces.” He placed Mr. Koussa second after Colonel Qaddafi on a list of “some individuals with formal or de facto authority, who commanded and had control over the forces that allegedly committed the crimes.”

More here.

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BIN JAWWAD, Libya -- Libyan government tanks and rockets blunted a rebel assault on Moammar Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte on Tuesday and drove back the ragtag army of irregulars, even as world leaders p...
BIN JAWWAD, Libya -- Libyan government tanks and rockets blunted a rebel assault on Moammar Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte on Tuesday and drove back the ragtag army of irregulars, even as world leaders p...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
steve siravo
07:16 PM on 03/29/2011
Bush = War Criminal
Obama = Liberator
Saddam Killed more of his own people in one attack then Gadhafi has in his whole regime.
Saddam attacked a neighboring country with no provaction.
Gadhafi has proven he has given up his weapons of mass destruction
Saddam lit his oil fields on fire causing enivormental disaster
Gadhafi supply's europe with a massive percentage of thier oil.
Saddam thumbed his nose at the international community and violated countless UN Resolutions
Gadhafi has not violated any

But yet the same people that gave this guy a nobel peace prize are now cheering his actions. The same people, like Code Pink, that wanted Bush tried for an illegal war say nothing of the Bamster back dooring congress with this military action. The best part of all this is the longer this goes on the more people see the hipocrsy of the Dems.

One final note Does anyone really believe if something like this was to happen in China, India, Russia, or hell even Pakistan there would be this action taken by this president or do you realise that we would just sit back and let the people of those countries fend for themselves.
07:58 PM on 03/29/2011
Why do you reference China, India, Russia or Pakistan hypotheticals? Why not deal in reality?

Sudan/Darfur.

Ivory Coast.

Rwanda.

Democratic Republic of Congo.

Sierra Leone.

Somalia.

In every one of those conflicts and many more, scores of people died and we did nothing.

We excel at doing nothing.

As in Tunisia.

As in Bahrain.

As in Egypt.

As in Yemen.

And so it goes.....
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
dclintn648
Better a pro than a con
10:03 PM on 03/29/2011
Somebody's been listening to too much Joe Scarborough... I recognize the same FALSE information! Code Pink is NOT in support of this action at all! Liberals, as a group, are NOT in blind support of this action either! I'll bet you were one of those cheering on ol' Bushy when he went into Iraq, and you're just trying to turn the tables now... That's called HYPOCRISY!
06:58 PM on 03/29/2011
We have now fallen into the quagmire; it is not unlike sleepwalking, I think.

This was never about "protecting civilians" so much as it was about opportunistically riding the coattails of an attempted coup.

But, it turns out:

The "rebels" are poorly organized.

They are poorly led.

They are poorly trained.

They are poorly armed.

They are poorly motivated.

They are no match for the Gaddafi forces, and their only hope is to have us fight their battles for them (reports repeatedly describe them getting their butts handed to them every time they engage government forces, and then fleeing from the site of their latest rout).

There is no "protecting civilians" here when the "civilians" that need "protecting" raise up their meager arms and attack government forces every time our air strikes give them a breather.

If it was really a "cease-fire" that we wanted we would tell the "rebels" to stop trying to attack the government forces every time that they get the delusion that they might win a battle; at that point the bombing could stop, and real talk of "cease fire" could commence.

But they don't want a cease fire; they want a war. The problem is, we have to fight their war for them to "succeed".

I am all for a "no fly zone" or whatever the heck it is, as long as the "innocents" act like "innocents". Right now they are little more than proxies for the war that we are going to fight.
08:31 AM on 03/30/2011
Very well said. if the rebels are not strong enough to knock Gaddafi out on their own, they are not strong enough to rule the country afterwards. We are fighting their war for them with our own objectives in mind. That is not an effective, long term foreign policy aim. F&F'd!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Marionette
10:16 AM on 03/30/2011
kinda sounds like another country and it's war of independence.. who were our 'allies' when we fought it against the british? do you think at the time of the fighting that we *knew* what kind of country we would turn out to be beforehand? or who we would have as a leader? or what that leader would do? of course not.. all we knew is that we wanted to be free and independant. the end game will unfold the way it will. either with our help or without it. *with* our help, it has a potential to succeed.

i'm wondering when france and spain were helping *us* out, if they had these very same conversations? think their motives were pure?
12:12 PM on 03/30/2011
The War of Independence was fought against a foreign country; it was not a civil war. For your analogy to make sense you should be referring to the Civil War.

What would your analysis be of a foreign country taking sides in that Civil War? For example, what if a foreign country had decided to support the South, because they didn't like the leaders of the North?

Furthermore, there was plenty of civilian "slaughter" occurring during the Civil War. What if a foreign country (or countries) had invested itself in the outcome of the Civil War by backing one side, and using the pretext of "saving civilians" as the excuse for doing so? Would you defend that?

That is what we are doing in Libya..
04:58 PM on 03/29/2011
After years of the Reagan/Bush crime families, I can imagine a lot of carnage.
04:23 PM on 03/29/2011
I am willing to bet that there is more peace of mind in Japan right now ( in spite of their gawd-awful conditions) than there is peace of mind in our country. Read the comments - there is so much unrest, hatred, polarization, de-moralization, bigotry, etc. I'm also willing to bet that the Japanese people and nation will HEAL much quicker and more completely than our country ever will. We've lost our moral-fibert and humane spirit in this country... don't believe it, just keep reading HP posts... it's utterly disgusting.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Marionette
04:48 PM on 03/29/2011
true, but then let's compare apples to apples. when was the last time any country looked to japan for military support in any capacity?

if we could somehow, i dunno 'step down' or take a vacation for the 'super-power' thing, it sure would leave us a lot of time and money to sort out our issues here at home, just like japan will be able to do once their current crisis abates ;(
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
dclintn648
Better a pro than a con
10:04 PM on 03/29/2011
I couldn't agree with you more!
04:18 PM on 03/29/2011
So, all you gripers out there.. what's your druthers, to go in and help save thousands of people and overtake Gadhafi  OR let Gadhafi remain as tyrant and eventually cause more harm to us (in our own country) or elsewhere like he did Lockerbie and elsewhere. You're truly all right with letting the barbarian stay in power, slaughter thousands of his own citizens and plot his next move against the US and other countries? Truly?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Marionette
04:21 PM on 03/29/2011
nope, as messy as it is and as much as it might end up costing us, i'm glad we did something.. otherwise, well.. i don't really want to think about otherwise.. that would call into play our character and morals.. the things that we like to think make us americans, right? standing up for the oppressed, right?
08:37 AM on 03/30/2011
The internal affairs of this country are none of our business and are up to the Libyans to resolve in whatever manner works for them. We don't have the resouces to continue eternal war everywhere, nor should we on a moral level. War only makes life better for the rich.

As for Gaddafi, why should we support the rebels? What makes them any better? What do you know about the rebels? What kind of government would they have that would be better? What would their policies be? How do you know these would not be Islamic fanatics like in Iran? Many of the "rebels" are believed to be in Al Qaeda. Do you really want to support the devil you don't know?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Marionette
09:51 AM on 03/30/2011
so, let me pose a scenario for you.
you were sitting in your car in a parking lot of some store. you look over, and you notice that some guy is beating his wife. even though you don't know them, or more specifically, her. do you sit there and watch? do you turn away and just let it happen not knowing what the outcome will be or if he'll stop?

myself? i would would become involved because that's how i'm wired. i wouldn't be sitting there thinking, well, if i save her what happens if she turns out to be an axe murder? the devil i do know? him.. the one i don't? her, but some things are just as wrong regardless.. if you think the correct answer is to go get help? then that would be like the rebels asking for the no-fly zone, right?

besides, it wasn't about supporting rebels, it was stopping Gadhafi from running rampant through a civilian population free to imprison, maim, torture or kill anyone that he wanted with no regard.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
10:51 AM on 03/30/2011
The guy you support.....put 6 European nurses and a Palestinian doctor in a Libyan prison for eight years....for allegedly injecting children with the AIDS virus.....UNTIL they were RANSOMED out.

The government you support....blew flight 103 out of the sky.

The government you support.....is an authoritarian military regime that has no problem massacring it's own citizens.

There are indeed just wars.
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Rubiconski
NOTE: I advocate for anti-BSL...
04:10 PM on 03/29/2011
Run those "rebels" all the back to CIA Headquarters.....
08:38 AM on 03/30/2011
You seem to be one of the few who gets it! F&F'd!
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04:10 PM on 03/29/2011
I found this very interesting...
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2011/03/2011328194855872276.html
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Dieseldagreat98
04:09 PM on 03/29/2011
The Rebels are too few.. What's going to happen is Nato is going to send troops into the fight. Either that or they will take direct aim at killing Gaddafy. Either way; whether its the will of the people or not. That's whats going to happen.
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MikeDu
Both salubrious and lugubrious concurrently.
04:07 PM on 03/29/2011
If there's anythings American's hate its events that don't adhere to the agreed-upon storyline. The bad guys aren't supposed to win, the good guys aren't supposed to lose, and we're never supposed to be supporting the losing side. Well, sometimes the bad guys do win. Sometimes your gambit the help the good guys doesn't pay off. Remember Tienamin Square?
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Yeuk Moy
04:12 PM on 03/29/2011
First of all, there has to be a "good" guy and a "bad" guy because we are too intellectually lazy to contemplate anything else.
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Marionette
04:14 PM on 03/29/2011
specifically, the lone guy run over by the tank? it broke my freakin heart..

but getting involved in a large sense in that mess would've probably enjoined russia as well, as if china's might isn't formidable on it's own..
04:03 PM on 03/29/2011
all info in mass media on Libya in black war-time propaganda..."mercs" (AQ fighters from Gaza, Egypt and Tunisia on the side of "rebels" yes), "planes" , "brutalities"...10 K bodies...ha ha ha...Wag the Dog...it's just an ethnic/tribal conflict in East Libya ....similar to race riot in LA' 92 but on a bigger scale
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Wong23
Card-carrying Progressive
04:29 PM on 03/29/2011
Is that you, Mooamar?

Too funny
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Rubiconski
NOTE: I advocate for anti-BSL...
04:03 PM on 03/29/2011
Bet those NATO bombing raids aren't helping the "rebels" win any popularity contests.
07:14 PM on 03/29/2011
No they are not.

And it is simply untrue that the population of Libya is united under the idea of being "liberated­" by the "rebels".

It is a very complicate­d story as to what is going on in Libya, but we have reduced it to linear simplicity­ so that we can get our brains around the old "good vs. bad" dichotomy.

And at the end of the day, there are going to be many, many Libyans who bear grudges regarding what we have done..
03:47 PM on 03/29/2011
what happens if Colonel wins, hopefully....Obama will ask to invest more money in US economy and Sarco wil ask for another pre-election donation?
03:52 PM on 03/29/2011
on Lockerbie...there were plenty of articles in British mass media that Qaddafi had nothing to do with it...Libya was framed by an AQ so West would crack down on Qaddafi who is a total enemy of islamists.... Qaddafi had zero interest in blowing this plane...he could not possibly claim credit for it...to shut down a military plane like F111 in '86 or attack say a warship is a different matter.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
03:56 PM on 03/29/2011
are you serious??? Libya's role in the bombing is well documented......let's see you prove otherwise
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Wong23
Card-carrying Progressive
04:30 PM on 03/29/2011
That IS you Mooamar!
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jstrate
03:45 PM on 03/29/2011
It looks like the rebels need some four wheel vehicles, some wire cutters, and some anti-tank missiles. Trying to advance in a column along a highway in broad daylight is sort of an invitation to the enemy to annihilate you. I suppose they will learn by trial and error. Where's the CIA? Aren't they supposed to seize the opportunity, when circumstances allow, to get rid of dictators who have become too annoying.
03:53 PM on 03/29/2011
Qaddafi forces already moved on to Toyota trucks just like terrorists they fight...so one can't distinguish
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Wong23
Card-carrying Progressive
04:33 PM on 03/29/2011
Libyan agent-provocateur
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Yeuk Moy
04:16 PM on 03/29/2011
Actually, you need artillery for counter battery fire. That or air power.

And they have off-roaders. The problem is that oil tankers carrying deisel or gasoline and other heavy haulers (food, water and ammo) don't do well offroad.

The first battle is about tactics, but it is logistics after that.