Ken Clarke, British Justice Secretary, Deems Some Rapes 'More Serious' Than Others

LONDON -- Opposition lawmakers called on British Justice Secretary Ken Clarke to resign Wednesday after he suggested that some types of rapes are more serious than others.

Clarke, a former lawyer and Treasury chief, refused to apologize for comments that muddled the issues of date rape and underage sex. He was later forced to release a statement describing all rapes as serious crimes, regardless of the circumstances.

The minister's troubles began when he gave an early morning interview to BBC radio in which he tried to defend new government proposals to halve the sentences of criminals, including rapists, who confess and plead guilty – thus sparing the victim of the difficulty of an extended trial.

When pressed on whether the proposals would shorten the sentence for rapists when the current average sentence is just five years, he said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15-year-olds."

The minister continued: "A serious rape, with violence and an unwilling woman, the tariff is much longer than that. I don't think many judges give five years for a forcible rape, frankly."

When the journalist argued that "rape is rape," Clarke retorted: "No, it's not."

Clarke then appeared to attempt to differentiate between the severity of different types of rape. "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes, in my very old experience of being in trials, they do vary extraordinarily one from another and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances," Clarke said.

His comments drew a fierce response.

Opposition Labour Party leader Ed Miliband called on Prime Minister David Cameron to fire Clarke, saying the justice minister "cannot speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that."

Sadiq Khan, a lawmaker who speaks on justice issues for the Labour Party, also urged the government to scrap its planned policy of reducing by half the sentence of all offenders if they plead guilty.

Cameron did not attack or defend Clarke, but told lawmakers that he believed rape was "one of the most serious crimes that there is and it should be met with proper punishment."

In a statement issued later by the justice ministry, Clarke attempted to clarify his comments.

"Rape is a very serious crime, with appalling consequences for victims, and I certainly didn't mean to give any other impression. Any rape deserves to be punished with the full force of the law," he said.

Comments

[GaborTheHun]

12:40 AM on 05/20/2011

Rape is when someone is injured by having sexual contact with another. Injury is the key word. It's not about your religious or moral presuppositions. Rape is when one person does damage to another through sexual means. There are various degrees of rape just like there are various degrees of any crime. Question: if two seventeen year olds have consensual sex, who raped who? Statutory rape has even more shades of gray.

[consequenceofsounds]

05:18 PM on 05/20/2011

I think you should go look up rape in a dictionary and see what it really means. Rape is the act of forcing someone to have sex against their will. "Injury through sexual contact" isn't what defines it, as people can be injured through consensual sex as well.

[GaborTheHun]

07:09 PM on 05/20/2011

Well, I wasn't very clear. My bad. By "injured" I meant physically or psychologically. And, of course, form what I am told, rape is not a sexually motivated act, but it is an act of exercising power over another. While, I am sure, that this is true in violent (not consensual, as you pointed out:-) sexual encounters, what I was trying to point out is that there can be different degrees of rape. Besides the example of the seventeen year olds, when there is consensual sex involved and one of the parties or society decides later to call it rape, there is a need to examine the degree to which rape actually occurred.

[InfinteShibumi]

11:45 PM on 05/19/2011

What did Whoopi say? Oh, right. There's rape and then there's "rape rape" (or something like that). Grimace.

[cam1002]

11:30 PM on 05/19/2011

In the article the author referred to a "Date rape" as being between a 17 yr old and a 15 yr old. If it is consensual then that is statutory rape not date rape. Date rape is when the male gets the female drunk or drugged and she is incapable of making a legal consent either because she is on the verge of passing out, has passed out or is incapable of making a knowledgeable consent. Other than that, rape is rape. Granted, a number of statutory rapes are consensual however the female (usually) is considered too young to make a decision in her own best interests. Personally in a case like that I think consideration should be made for leniency on the older persons behalf under certain circumstances however that is just my personal viewpoint and most certainly is not a legal viewpoint.

[rsg007]

07:04 PM on 05/21/2011

You've misunderstood the sentence: He did not mean that date rape is between a 17-year-old and a 15-year-old. He was listing types of rape he deemed "less serious," that is, date rape AND 17-year-olds having sex with 15-year-olds (statutory rape)--he just used a comma instead of the word "and."

[lcr999]

10:03 PM on 05/19/2011

From a criminal standpoint, yes, some rapes are more serious than others.....just as some "killing" is worse than others. You can not more logically say rape is rape, than you can say manslaughter is the same as premiditated murder of a baby or a government official. Sure, sure for the victim, the result is the same, but society takes a widely different view.

[cam1002]

11:32 PM on 05/19/2011

The only less serious rape possibly is statutory rape depending on the individual circumstances. Other than that rape is rape and there is no degree of difference. It does not matter if extreme violence was used or the woman was not brutalized, Sex without legal consent is rape pure and simple.

[lcr999]

08:24 AM on 05/20/2011

And if you cause someone to die, they are dead. And Dead is Dead. But we still distinguish between manslaughter , accidents, crimes of passion, premeditated murder, murder for hire, and terrorism. They are all the same to the victim, but they are different to society and each takes a different kind of perp.

[Shomali]

09:48 PM on 05/19/2011

I read what he said, I don't see what he says as anything unreasonable. His clarification wasn't in contradiction to what he said. His criticism is all political, nothing more.

[cam1002]

11:34 PM on 05/19/2011

There is no degree to rape. Rape is rape. There may be extenuating circumstances in statutory rape however beyond those possible circumstances - rape is rape.

[Cye]

11:48 PM on 05/19/2011

Sorry, I think a date rape is very different to, say, a gang rape. Or, say, a rape where the victim is horribly brutalised and left for dead.

Yes, all rapes are bad and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But all rapes are not equal. Some are much, much worst than others.

[Shomali]

07:23 AM on 05/20/2011

There are degrees of rape, both in law and in common sense. Just google aggravated and non aggravated rape in whatever state you live, you see what I am talking about.

[EducatedObserver]

08:07 PM on 05/19/2011

Any sensate being reading the transcript of Mr Clarke's original statement would have understood clearly what he meant.

While he could indeed have spoken more judiciously - especially given his cabinet role - the sensationalised interpretation of his remarks is manifestly dishonest.

[Theophrastus]

02:47 AM on 05/20/2011

True, but you're dealing with stupid people who need to be reactionary for their lives to have meaning.

[CPAwADD]

04:38 PM on 05/19/2011

Rape is rape beyond that you are descibing degrees of brutality.

[enigma2]

05:11 PM on 05/19/2011

Agreed..

[cam1002]

11:35 PM on 05/19/2011

F&F

[sean62965]

03:43 PM on 05/19/2011

Let him spend some time in prison, and see if he can refine his definition of rape, and see if any of the times he's "taken", if he could rate them on a scale of 1 - No big deal to 10 - Exceptionally nasty.

[HansMoleman]

03:50 PM on 05/19/2011

Sexual assault is not very common in British prisons, but I reiterate - the criminal justice system is NOT concerned with evaluating the experience of the victim! It is concerned with correcting the offender - and in this respect Clark has long been a progressive. In opposition to his Tory colleagues, he is a long-standing supporter of prison reform and rehabilitation.

[iMissMollyIvins]

03:39 PM on 05/19/2011

I bet if someone 'date-raped' him, he'd change his thinking AND his rhetoric.

[Susan Shaffer]

05:02 PM on 05/19/2011

probably not
i know of a case where a man was abducted from the streets in lahore, pakistan. he was held captive for over a week. a group of women took turns at "raping" him before releasing him.
The story was widely discussed and in each and every case the men discussing it said "i wish they had abducted me"
maybe it was an urban myth but a man cannot be date raped by a woman. it is physically impossible

[Komodo D]

08:30 PM on 05/19/2011

You clearly have NO clue, do you.

Male.

[Cye]

12:01 AM on 05/20/2011

Of course a man can be raped! He can obviously very easily be raped by another man. But there is also no reason I cant be raped by a woman, (ie using objects, or via forcible stimulation). Granted this is much rarer than male to female rape, but it occurs.

The point of rape is not the sex act itself, but the power weilded by the rapist and the humiliation and helplessness of the victim.

[Cye]

12:02 AM on 05/20/2011

He isn't arguing that date rape is not very traumatic, evil and punishable to the full extent of the law. He only saying that some rapes are worst than others. And personally I agree.

As bad as date rape is (and there is no question that it *is* bad), gang rapes are far worst in terms of heinousness and impact on the victim - as are rapes where the victim is brutalised and left for dead.

His is arguing for that reality. The understanding that are degrees of brutality that accompany rape.

Statutory rate can occur between individual that are only a few years apart in age, and can occur with no violence or force (ie the underage party consents). Given that the consent of a minor is not true consent, this situation is illegal and punishable by law. Nobody is suggestint it shouldn't be. But you cannot put that on the same level as some of the more heinous acts done to innocent victims.

Provided he is not arguing that date rapists ought to get lesser sentences, than I agree with the distinction he is trying to draw.

[cam1002]

12:35 AM on 05/20/2011

On your statutory rape reasoning, would you put that in the same context as a female high school teacher having sexual intercourse with a male student? Is that not just as heinous as that done to "innocent" victims?

[Cyclonego]

01:48 PM on 05/19/2011

Rape is Rape! and it should not be discussed on any level, but serious!

[HansMoleman]

03:35 PM on 05/19/2011

Obviously, all rape is a serious crime. But this should not obscure the fact that some rapes are more serious offences than others.

This isn't in any way to belittle the experience of the victim (which is not, incidentally, what the criminal justice system is primarily concerned with). It is merley to acknowledge that sex crimes are a highly homogeneous category, and that different sentences are appropriate depending upon the offender and the crime. This does not seem to me to be a particularly contentious observation.

[cam1002]

11:38 PM on 05/19/2011

Boy are you off base, as a previous poster said, rape is rape. The only difference is the degree of brutality. Rape is rape.

[lcr999]

10:04 PM on 05/19/2011

we distinguish between manslaughter and first degree murder. Yes, it is all serious, but they are not the same.

[cam1002]

11:38 PM on 05/19/2011

Yes they are, rape is rape.

[Whinger]

01:40 PM on 05/19/2011

How many rape victims has Ken Clark consulted to establish if they agree with his opinion!

[Tauren Marine]

11:31 AM on 05/19/2011

A 18 year old adult having consensual sex with his girlfriend who is an hour away from being of legal age is different than having sex with a woman who is too drunk to give consent. And yet, the American justice system treats both men the same.

[dctackett]

02:44 PM on 05/19/2011

that was probably his point... but words are clumsy and emotions flare on sensitive topics...

[sean62965]

03:45 PM on 05/19/2011

When you stand up to give a speech, you normally pick and choose your words very carefully.
If this guy decided that these were the words he was going to use, he needs to spend some time with those who have been victims of rape.

[cam1002]

11:44 PM on 05/19/2011

The author called that date rape. That is not date rape that is statutory rape. I might agree some leniency may be allowed if the sex was consentual and even then if he is 18 he should have known better and held off for the extra hour/day/month/year whatever. Every other rape is rape, no degrees of; just rape. The law concerning statutory rape is because until the female reaches the age of consent it has been determined that she can be coerced into agreeing without being fully aware of the consequences. Being older he is supposed to know better.

[jtabs]

11:04 AM on 05/19/2011

Using this line of logic, then some forms of murder are more serious than others, hmmm I wonder if the victims would agree.

[Tauren Marine]

11:26 AM on 05/19/2011

Here in America, a murder motivate by race is considered a hate crime, with additional charges pressed and more jail time imposed. So the answer is yes.

[jtabs]

07:27 PM on 05/19/2011

You're looking at it from a punishment point of view, while I'm commenting on the act itself as regardless of reason the dead victim is still dead.

[dctackett]

02:47 PM on 05/19/2011

is taking someone off of life support murder?... or medically killing a dying patient who consents?...

if an 18 year old gets it on with his willing 17 year old girlfriend it's rape... but still not the same as brutally attacking and viciously raping someone...

[jtabs]

07:29 PM on 05/19/2011

If the rape represents an act against the will of the victim then the result is the same as the party has been raped, I'm not referring to the relative brutality of the act.

[Midori Greene]

11:04 AM on 05/19/2011

just like some murders are more serious than others?

[schnauzergirl]

11:35 AM on 05/19/2011

In the eyes of the law, yes some are. Muder in the US has 3 "degrees" It all depends on the circumstances. Accidentlally causing death by hitting a pedestrian with your car is given a very different punishment than deciding a head of time and fully planning to run someone over with the intent to kill them.

So a 16 year old having consensual sex with his/her 18 year old boy/girl friend is very different than a guy violently forcing himself on a woman.

Do they not have a legal difference for those in the UK? Statutory vs agrrevated?

[littlepuffycloud]

10:41 AM on 05/19/2011

He said what many people, including some women think. Idiot..